I couldn't have said it better - Pat Condell

[xDreamerx]

Whatever

Very sophisticated rebuttal.

[latraviata]

Very sophisticated rebuttal.

You came to this conclusion and I couldn't care less, so what is there to say, except

Goodnight.

It is 2:30 in the morning, I am tired and I want to go to bed.

[defrauding]

Silent PM pirate army coming up off the starboard bow, ahoy!

And they're all taking her side of the arr-gument!

[Burris]

I explained that we lived very cheap in what we call social housing, after we just got married, I worked he studied.

What do you want to hear, did you read my comment properly? Or is my English not sufficient?

Why do I actually bother to answer your ridiculous and invidious questions? If you choose not to be believe me well I am perfectly ok with that.

I think you are very resentful.

I really do hate to gang-pile you, here, but wait...

You lived in subsidized housing over 30 years ago, before this mass immigration even became an issue? Why would you think that is in any way relevant to people who currently live in sink housing?

Do you live anywhere near Muslim immigrants now?

You're a psychologist. Surely you're familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment: People became precisely what they're treated as; they become what they're expected to be.

I want to cry.

Can't you see it?

[latraviata]

I really do hate to gang-pile you, here, but wait...

You lived in subsidized housing over 30 years ago, before this mass immigration even became an issue? Why would you think that is in any way relevant to people who currently live in sink housing?

Do you live anywhere near Muslim immigrants now?

You're a psychologist. Surely you're familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment: People became precisely what they're treated as; they become what they're expected to be.

I want to cry.

Can't you see it?

No, I suggest you read my posts before you comment.

I lived in the Middle East 30 years ago, well plenty of muslims over there.

The question was, wether I lived in a sink estate, yes I did, that means the Dutch equivalent of it, like many students and starting families in that time. But even then the mass immigration started about 40 years ago and the the family reunification law (the Netherlands) became effective in 1975. At this moment I live in an appartment complex on the border of a 'so called' multicultural area. 50% of the population of the city I live are immigrants.

Yes I am familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment your point is?? Have you any clue about the immigration policy, social services, politics in this country? Obviously not.

Well nothing so relieving as a good cry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Dalrymple

http://www.aina.org/news/20070606133713.htm

[latraviata]

Latraviata:

I think you’re doing yourself a disservice by failing to read Islamic religious documents for yourself, rather than taking other people at their word when they claim to know what those texts say. (And I would recommend the same for people who have deep and strident criticisms of Christianity.)

Your views seem animated by personal experience. My own experience with Muslims has been, on the whole at least, markedly different from yours. Isn’t it possible you’re not seeing the whole picture? That at least some of your opinions are colored by the negative experiences of others?

Isn’t it possible you are wrong?

And if it is possible, then consider that your current pose can pretty much be read by the people around you through your word choice and your body language. The Muslims you meet aren't stupid; I'm sure they can sense your opprobrium too.

I used to be like you, albeit in relation to a different minority. I collected whatever information suited my opinions - which was easy, considering the media climate at the time.

All I'm saying is you should actively investigate this for yourself. I didn't, and the damage I caused as a result was...inestimable.

Well, If I am wrong so is 55% of the Dutch population.

I never actually read the Q'uran but it has been intensively discussed for years and years on a daily basis all over the media. We know everything about the holidays, festivities, sharia, takkya, hadiths and the like. The muslim community is very present and rather demanding, this of course again a very daring statement but I make it anyway.

Shocking though is for about 400 years we have a jewish community, the majority of the Dutch population doesn't know a thing about judaism, neither, buddhism, Hinduism or any religion other than the Islam.

This is a very tolerant country, why do you think people suddenly respond in the 'racist' way you suggest I/we do? Why do they vote for an administration which is more demanding towards non western immigrants? Just like that?

Merkel, Cameron, Sarkozy, Verhagen are talking about the failure of multiculturalism and it failed indeed.

I suggest bedore you judge you read something about European immigration policy and the present situation.

I already said, a discussion without generalisation is impossible, I could sing the praises about my hardworking Marrocan greengrocer friend and his 5 sons all of them getting properly educated, all their free time spend in the shop, because father wants to keep an eye on them.

But that doesn't brush away the magnitude of the problems.

Well, mentioning the private posts was not a smart thing to do I ususally don't hide behind the great absentee , but I told the truth, it happened.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/cultural_ ... _usa.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKhULwO3l_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TftOBBdyGo

[latraviata]

Perhaps interesting for non Dutch forum members and I promise this will be the last posting on the subject:

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/06/the-neth ... lturalism/

Sorry especially for my charming British opponent 'Fight Jesus or whatever'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ities.html

[Burris]

No, I suggest you read my posts before you comment.

I lived in the Middle East 30 years ago, well plenty of muslims over there.

First of all, I do not appreciate your tone. And secondly, I did read your posts: You said you lived in subsidized housing when you and your husband were first getting started - which I assume means over thirty years ago. Right?

The question was, wether I lived in a sink estate, yes I did, that means the Dutch equivalent of it, like many students and starting families in that time.

So yeah, I did read you right. Good to know.

Yes I am familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment your point is??

I thought my point was quite clear. Maybe it's the language barrier.

Or maybe it's just you.

Have you any clue about the immigration policy, social services, politics in this country? Obviously not.

Well nothing so relieving as a good cry.

Obviously, you have a deep emotional attachment to your bigotry. Gee, I'm sorry for having challenged something so close to your heart.

[Burris]

Well, If I am wrong so is 55% of the Dutch population.

Oh, an appeal to popular opinion. Too bad facts and rights aren't up for a vote, eh?

I never actually read the Q'uran but it has been intensively discussed for years and years on a daily basis all over the media. We know everything about the holidays, festivities, sharia, takkya, hadiths and the like.

The media discussed it, so you know all you need to know. Wow - what an admission!

The muslim community is very present and rather demanding, this of course again a very daring statement but I make it anyway.

Oh noes! Someone might disagree with you! Aiiiieeee.

Shocking though is for about 400 years we have a jewish community, the majority of the Dutch population doesn't know a thing about judaism, neither, buddhism, Hinduism or any religion other than the Islam.

You don't know anything about Islam either. You just know what media talking heads tell you.

This is a very tolerant country, why do you think people suddenly respond in the 'racist' way you suggest I/we do?

Yeah, you're clearly a paragon of tolerance - and it's not like the Dutch have ever collaborated in religion-fueled mass murder before or anything.

It's just when the Muslims showed up that everything went to hell.

Why do they vote for an administration which is more demanding towards non western immigrants? Just like that?

Uh...oh, I see: I'm supposed to say they vote for far-right demagogues because the Muslim menace will overtake you otherwise.

Merkel, Cameron, Sarkozy, Verhagen are talking about the failure of multiculturalism and it failed indeed.

You're gonna hitch your wagon to that star, eh? Well, at least I know better than to ever take you seriously again. Saves me a lot of time and aggravation.

I suggest bedore you judge you read something about European immigration policy and the present situation.

Oh, what's that? You want me to read before I judge?

You can't even be bothered to read the book you whine so much about, but you want me to read a bunch of right-wing garbage so I land on side with you?

I think not. I've heard all this bullshit before. It's old. I'd rather watch paint dry, etc.

I already said, a discussion without generalisation is impossible...

...so you didn't even try, and went into full demagogue mode instead. Way to set that bar high!

...I could sing the praises about my hardworking Marrocan greengrocer friend and his 5 sons all of them getting properly educated, all their free time spend in the shop, because father wants to keep an eye on them. But that doesn't brush away the magnitude of the problems.

I've heard this shit before, too.

You're not doing your "friend" any favors. I think you should just tell him your opinion, so he knows who to avoid when you and your rightist friends get geared up for the coming culture war.

Well, mentioning the private posts was not a smart thing to do I ususally don't hide behind the great absentee , but I told the truth, it happened.

Yeah, I know. I'm sure a few of the regulars - and we all know who they are - beat a path to your door to tell you how brave you are for making yourself look like a complete tool on a board where no one would censor you and where no one could really do any damage anyway.

So brave *swoon*

[latraviata]

Oh, an appeal to popular opinion. Too bad facts and rights aren't up for a vote, eh?

The media discussed it, so you know all you need to know. Wow - what an admission!

Oh noes! Someone might disagree with you! Aiiiieeee.

You don't know anything about Islam either. You just know what media talking heads tell you.

Yeah, you're clearly a paragon of tolerance - and it's not like the Dutch have ever collaborated in religion-fueled mass murder before or anything.

It's just when the Muslims showed up that everything went to hell.

Uh...oh, I see: I'm supposed to say they vote for far-right demagogues because the Muslim menace will overtake you otherwise.

You're gonna hitch your wagon to that star, eh? Well, at least I know better than to ever take you seriously again. Saves me a lot of time and aggravation.

Oh, what's that? You want me to read before I judge?

You can't even be bothered to read the book you whine so much about, but you want me to read a bunch of right-wing garbage so I land on side with you?

I think not. I've heard all this bullshit before. It's old. I'd rather watch paint dry, etc.

...so you didn't even try, and went into full demagogue mode instead. Way to set that bar high!

I've heard this shit before, too.

You're not doing your "friend" any favors. I think you should just tell him your opinion, so he knows who to avoid when you and your rightist friends get geared up for the coming culture war.

Yeah, I know. I'm sure a few of the regulars - and we all know who they are - beat a path to your door to tell you how brave you are for making yourself look like a complete tool on a board where no one would censor you and where no one could really do any damage anyway.

So brave *swoon*

Absolutely pointless!

Yes, you lot are always right about everything. What do you know about Islam and Dutch/European politics? Nothing. I know there is some idolatry towards you for your eloquence profound and infinite wisdom, now you expose yourself as ignorant and prejudiced. Again I am not a right wing voter neither a racist, but a realist. Follow your own advice and read something about the subject and don't listen to talking heads, I don't.

I bet I know a lot more about Islam than you do.

Well I am done what about you??

[Burris]

Absolutely pointless!

Yes, you did waste a lot of my time. Good to see you admit it.

Yes, you lot are always right about everything. What do you know about Islam and Dutch/European politics?

Oh. no; actually you are right about everything - and you know more about Islam than anyone here, because you saw something about it on TV.

Nothing. I know there is some idolatry towards you for your eloquence profound and infinite wisdom, now you expose yourself as ignorant and prejudiced.

I'm ignorant and prejudiced? I'm sure, being a psychologist, that you're familiar with the phenomenon of "projection."

HINT: You're doing it right now.

Funny thing is, before I read this thread, I had a lot of respect for you. Now that you've revealed yourself to be a complete dunce, that's certainly changed.

Again I am not a right wing voter neither a racist, but a realist.

Oh, and I've heard that before too. There isn't a single talking point you've managed to miss yet.

You must take in a lot of media.

Follow your own advice and read something about the subject and don't listen to talking heads, I don't.

Wow - and you're a liar, too. You talked fairly extensively about how the media and popular opinion have shaped your views. Your words are on the record.

I bet I know a lot more about Islam than you do.

No - you really don't. Unlike you, I've actually read through the Qur'an.

Maybe you should do that instead of burying your nose up the closest rightist ass.

Well I am done what about you??

You keep saying that, and yet here you are still spewing your racist horseshit.

[latraviata]

Now you show you know nothing about the Dutch/European situation:

Wow - and you're a liar, too. You talked fairly extensively about how the media and popular opinion have shaped your views. Your words are on the record.

Internet is media as well and since you are so well informed, you should know that the Dutch media as in telly, radio and newspapers are predominantly left wing. The Islamic plastered over the media is coming from the muslim community.

Reading the q'uran means you know everything about islam?

Reading the bible means you know everything about chistianity?

Please.

[UmmSqueakster]

The american muslim and european muslim experiences have been quite different. And even within europe, the experience isn't monolithic, thus making it hard to talk about european muslims as a whole.

From my experience as an american muslim and 4th generation great granddaughter of italian, norweigan and german immigrants, I think that the muslim american experience mirrors that of previous groups of immigrants (although it should be noted that the vast majority of american muslims are at least 2nd generation, and many are converts, or children of converts). I speak often with my grandmother of the discrimination she faced as the daughter of italian immigrants - from name calling to outright, bald, in your face racism with potential employers telling her they wouldn't hire her because she was a dago and a wop.

In time, these groups become part of the quilt of america. inshaAllah (God willing), in time american muslims will be accepted as just another square (or 2 or 3) of interesting fabric that makes this diverse country so intereting.

From a distance and only through casual conversations with European muslims and through observations on european history, there isn't as much of a stew approach to culture - where as in the US, every new ethnic and religious group adds an interesting and distinct flavor while blending with the rest, in Europe, it's not that way. Add to that the history of many countries (like France) had with colonializing muslim countries as recent as half a century ago, and it adds tensions we don't have here in the US.

One interesting note however, for those who ring their hands that european muslims aren't integrating, one of the victims of the recent massacure in Norway include Bano Abobakar Rashid, a young muslim woman. I've heard that there were many muslim youth attending the camp. Of course, the right wing islamophobes will probably just use that as evidence of the leftist-islamofacist alliance that threatened their way of life.

[emmiedahl]

I think American Muslims are already integrated for the most part--as much as they want to be integrated, at least. We have a few Muslims families in my apartment complex and the only ones I don't interact with are the females from one family that are basically kept in purdah.

[UmmSqueakster]

We are integrated, but still face discrimination, as previous "new" groups have before us. My grandmother spoke no italian, can't cook italian food to save her life, went to public school, etc etc etc, but still faced discrimination as an outsider.

Likewise, american muslims are part of mainstream society, but are still viewed as "the other." We suspect my husband was fired from his first job after his boss found out he was muslim (so hard to prove however). He's been physically attacked for being brown and muslim. I've been called names and have had my hijab pulled off at the grocery store while a policeman stood by and did nothing.

In general, we've had to work harder, do better, study harder, etc, to be accepted at work. Again, speaking with my grandmother, it all sounds so similar to what she went through. She was at the top of her technical school class for secretarial work, yet had a very difficult time finding a job while lesser qualified people were hired. Likewise, I've seen similar things happen to fellow american muslims.

This isn't to say that our lives are horrible. It's simply a part of being "new." I will say that it was an eye opening experience for me, when I put on a hijab and suddenly my 2 decades of white privilege were wiped away and people began to view me as "the other."

[latraviata]

where as in the US, every new ethnic and religious group adds an interesting and distinct flavor while blending with the rest, in Europe, it's not that way.

No, that is not entirely true, at least not for the Netherlands and France.

We have and had many refugees, asylum seekers, quest workers and indeed people coming from our colonies.

They all blended in perfectly and add, as you call it, an interesting and distinct flavour with the rest.

[Witsec1]

The american muslim and european muslim experiences have been quite different. ...

.

Absolutely. My mother in law lives in Fremont, CA, where white Anglos are in the minority and there's a huge Muslim population from Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. And the congressman is the only open non-theist in the house. According to the right wingers, social collapse should have already occurred but miraculously Fremont remains as boring as every other American suburb, only with better restaurants and more Bollywood movies in the shopping mall eightplexes.

...

One interesting note however, for those who ring their hands that european muslims aren't integrating, one of the victims of the recent massacure in Norway include Bano Abobakar Rashid, a young muslim woman. I've heard that there were many muslim youth attending the camp. Of course, the right wing islamophobes will probably just use that as evidence of the leftist-islamofacist alliance that threatened their way of life.

It has already happened. If you ask me, part of the impetus behind European multiculturalism has always been "separate but equal" segregation by other means. For the right wingers, the only possible role for non-European immigrants is to perform menial labor while remaining as invisible as possible. If they attempt to perpetuate their culture they are wrong. If they attempt to assimilate, they are wrong.

[TVR]

The Netherlands still has colonies????? 0_0

I thought we have moved past the whole colonialist thing?

[keeperrox]

No, that is not entirely true, at least not for the Netherlands and France.

We have and had many refugees, asylum seekers, quest workers and indeed people coming from our colonies.

They all blended in perfectly and add, as you call it, an interesting and distinct flavour with the rest.

It must be the superior quality of the food that have allowed these refugees, asylum seekers, quest workers, and people from the colonies to blend in perfectly in the Netherlands and France. Except the Muslims.

[Witsec1]

It must be the superior quality of the food that have allowed these refugees, asylum seekers, quest workers, and people from the colonies blend in perfectly in the Netherlands and France. Except the Muslims.

Damn you all, it's still 2 hours to lunch, and already I'm pondering: falafel or pho?

ETA:riffles

[latraviata]

Absolutely. My mother in law lives in Fremont, CA, where white Anglos are in the minority and there's a huge Muslim population from Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. And the congressman is the only open non-theist in the house. According to the right wingers, social collapse should have already occurred but miraculously Fremont remains as boring as every other American suburb, only with better restaurants and more Bollywood movies in the shopping mall eightplexes.

It has already happened. If you ask me, part of the impetus behind European multiculturalism has always been "separate but equal" segregation by other means. For the right wingers, the only possible role for non-European immigrants is to perform menial labor while remaining as invisible as possible. If they attempt to perpetuate their culture they are wrong. If they attempt to assimilate, they are wrong.

It has already happened. If you ask me, part of the impetus behind European multiculturalism has always been "separate but equal" segregation by other means. For the right wingers, the only possible role for non-European immigrants is to perform menial labor while remaining as invisible as possible. If they attempt to perpetuate their culture they are wrong. If they attempt to assimilate, they are wrong.

I think this symplifying a very complicated problem.

When the muslims came to Europe mid sixties we had an enormous social safety net financed by

natural gas income which was enormous.

Since WW11 the European/Dutch population was very afraid to discriminate (rightly so) and a foreign culture was considered to be completely equal to ours, which is not true, kannibalism is culture too.

So we never made any demands at all to avoid being accused of being racism.

The socialists treated this people like small children, a really patronising attitude and immediately

made victims of people who were trying to make a life for themselves and children.

Everbody opposing towards or even suggested it would be very convenient when at least they learned our language, this attitude was qualified as racist, nazi and the like.

Now we have seen the results of this out of place so called tolerence or indifference, the road back and treat this people like responsable adults who are as much bound by the law as anybody else even when it conflicts with their religion, is a very difficult one.

Go ahead call me a racist and a nazi, but I don't patronise people neither does the USA administation.

[latraviata]

The Netherlands still has colonies????? 0_0

I thought we have moved past the whole colonialist thing?

Very funny, we had colonies.

For the record:

Suriname was our last colony and became independed 25th of november 1975, more than half the Suriname population came to the Netherlands, because after all they were Dutch citizens.

But I assume you were not even born yet when that happened.

[TVR]

Um, actually, I was and I come from a former Dutch colony. Assuming is a pretty dangerous thing.

Latraviata, I'm not going to engage you in a mudslinging argument. Just as English is not your mother tongue, neither is it mine (but I'm married to someone who is English and it is my home language) and I know a lot of things go missing in translation.

My comment was actually a bit tongue in cheek. My suggestion to you is to bow out of this conversation because I don't think anything you say (even if it is of value) will be taken as valuable at this stage.

[latraviata]

Um, actually, I was and I come from a former Dutch colony. Assuming is a pretty dangerous thing.

Latraviata, I'm not going to engage you in a mudslinging argument. Just as English is not your mother tongue, neither is it mine (but I'm married to someone who is English and it is my home language) and I know a lot of things go missing in translation.

My comment was actually a bit tongue in cheek. My suggestion to you is to bow out of this conversation because I don't think anything you say (even if it is of value) will be taken as valuable at this stage.

Assuming is a dangerous thing I am well aware of that. There is a lot of assuming about my personality and I shouldn't have done the same, I am sorry for that

You know what? You are absolutely right!

[Soldevi]

I pondered quite a long whether to join in or not. I am a fellow European as well and I don't agree with latraviata. I can only speak for myself and my country's situation as I haven't lived in Netherlands and I don't know anything about their social structure. But I can't generalise muslim groups as she does. Finland has always been multicultural, whatever that means exactly... We had our first dose of muslims in the 19th century when group of tatars moved to Finland. They are muslims who established the first Islamic congregation here and Finland was the first Western European country to officially recognise an Islamic congregation. Tatars especially have integrated very well and still kept their own language, religion and habits. We have always lived with Sami people, with fellow Scandinavians, Russian jews and Russians (after revolution tens of thousands came to Finland) and with very different religions and "cultures". In 1970´s we got refugees from Chile, after the Vietnam war we got Vietnamese "boat refugees", then in 1990´s the serbs and Bosnian muslims and the most heated immigrant topic in Finland: Somalians.

The problem nowadays here isn't with first generation immigrants and their religion. The problem is that we as a society do wrong decisions when integrating them. The worst muslim types are frustrated second and third generation young males who are society drop-outs and then find a way to act through extremism. It has been Somalians in Finland who are still favourite group to blame. The whole anti-islamic in Europe has just found Finland even though we haven't had same kind of problems with muslims like for example Sweden and France do have. We might have, but we can still learn from other countries problems.

Edit: missing letters and wrong tenses...