I couldn't have said it better - Pat Condell

[latraviata]

My thoughts exactly

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell#p/u

[xDreamerx]

This :D.

This guy's channel looks awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Edit: Wait. What do we make of this one?

http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell# ... 77kKBi6anQ

[latraviata]

This :D.

This guy's channel looks awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Edit: Wait. What do we make of this one?

http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell# ... 77kKBi6anQ

I don't know about you, but I agree and I am aware of this being a very daring opinion.

I live in Europe and the situation is going completely out of hand, because of the socialist/left enablers of the demanding and dominant attitude of followers of the religion of peace, to victimise this particular minority is because of gaining their votes and to keep the welfare, social work/committees/boards and the like at work and have the enormous amounts of governmental financial drip constantly going, without any result.

By all means, let me be clear about this, I am absolutely disgusted by the Norwegian killer. I am disgusted by any kind of violence, from the right from the left, muslims, christian,atheists, it doesn't make any difference at all.

[xDreamerx]

The part that disturbs me is that some of the rhetoric that those on the right use reminds me of Nazi rhetoric. What the Italian government has done to travelers is too extreme. Though, I do agree with him in the sense that the left (and I consider myself left) can condone abuses by being too politically correct. Yet, it seems like a lot of this anti-immigrant sentiment is directed at Islam. There are issues to be had with every group and I feel it's unfair to single out Muslims. Are they the new scapegoat? I wonder... I think extremist elements of any variety should be stopped.

However, the extremists don't unnerve me as much as the insidious racism in see in average people. I can only speak of Canada, because it's what I know. But I've run across people who say, "We are in the minority" and when you ask them who we is they say Canadians. But I find what they mean is white people of European descent. When you remind them that everyone who isn't Native has immigration in their history, they try to down play it. My mother's husband was talking about the last two Governor Generals (Jean and Clarkson) "weren't Canadian". I asked him what he meant. He said, "They weren't born here." I said, "No, but Jean came here when she was three so she was raised here. Clarkson's parents fled Hong Kong when she was just an infant so again she was raised here." He said, "But they aren't white." My insides did this :O. I know he is just one person, but I see this kind of sentiment a lot. They claim to have issues with immigrants for not assimilating into the "culture" but when you press them, they really are talking about race.

I realize Multiculturalism has pitfalls but surely there has to be a way to realize it without letting a group or certain groups dominate. There has to be some compromise or debate.

[latraviata]

The part that disturbs me is that some of the rhetoric that those on the right use reminds me of Nazi rhetoric. What the Italian government has done to travelers is too extreme. Though, I do agree with him in the sense that the left (and I consider myself left) can condone abuses by being too politically correct. Yet, it seems like a lot of this anti-immigrant sentiment is directed at Islam. There are issues to be had with every group and I feel it's unfair to single out Muslims. Are they the new scapegoat? I wonder... I think extremist elements of any variety should be stopped.

However, the extremists don't unnerve me as much as the insidious racism in see in average people. I can only speak of Canada, because it's what I know. But I've run across people who say, "We are in the minority" and when you ask them who we is they say Canadians. But I find what they mean is white people of European descent. When you remind them that everyone who isn't Native has immigration in their history, they try to down play it. My mother's husband was talking about the last two Governor Generals (Jean and Clarkson) "weren't Canadian". I asked him what he meant. He said, "They weren't born here." I said, "No, but Jean came here when she was three so she was raised here. Clarkson's parents fled Hong Kong when she was just an infant so again she was raised here." He said, "But they aren't white." My insides did this :O. I know he is just one person, but I see this kind of sentiment a lot. They claim to have issues with immigrants for not assimilating into the "culture" but when you press them, they really are talking about race.

I realize Multiculturalism has pitfalls but surely there has to be a way to realize it without letting a group or certain groups dominate. There has to be some compromise or debate.

I realise where this coming from.

My late husband was a diplomate and we have been in the Middle East a lot, well, not a pleasure.

So, my aversion towards the islam was initially present before the mass immigration to Europe even started.

People critising islam and its attitude towards jews, women, homosexuals and actually everybody not being a muslim are defined by being nazi's. Interesting to know, that the Grand Muphti of Jerusalem teamed up with Hitler and offered his assitance to eliminate all jews by extradite them to Germany.

Basicly a great deal of the European population opposes to the islamic intolerance and discrimination and tries to preserve their freedom of speech and democracy.

But this is a very sensitive subject.

Debate and consensus is not an option in the islamic culture, dialoque and compromise is a western concept but to muslims a sign of weakness. It is an absolute illusion and rather naive to assume that it will solve any problem. We try to do that for over fourty years now without any result.

[lovefromgirl]

You know, for someone who seems pretty proud of not being a Muslim, you are spouting off an awful lot about how Muslims think. Have you even bothered to read the Qur'an or any of the hadiths? Talked to any non-extremists lately? Just as not all Jews are Orthodox and not all Christians are fundies, let's not confuse all Muslims with the flipping Taliban.

And for the record, the male professors who have treated me with the most respect by far in my academic career? My Arabic professors. One was Moroccan, one was Palestinian and Egyptian, both were Muslims, both embraced the idea of white Westerners learning Arabic. In fact, in the second class I took, the most enthusiastic students were women. Both were very open about being Muslim and teaching us more about their own cultures. I hope someday I have time to pick up the language again in a group setting, because those were among the best educational experiences I have ever had.

Debate and consensus is not an option in the islamic culture, dialoque and compromise is a western concept but to muslims a sign of weakness. It is an absolute illusion and rather naive to assume that it will solve any problem. We try to do that for over fourty years now without any result.

If you're referring to the Arab-Israeli conflict, well, if some foreign power arbitrarily redrew the map so that you no longer had a country, would you not be a touch miffed? Neither side is helping itself, from what I've read over the years. Also, seriously? The leaders of Hamas are a representative sample? Hand me your pipe. There's some mighty good crack in it.

[xDreamerx]

You know, for someone who seems pretty proud of not being a Muslim, you are spouting off an awful lot about how Muslims think. Have you even bothered to read the Qur'an or any of the hadiths? Talked to any non-extremists lately? Just as not all Jews are Orthodox and not all Christians are fundies, let's not confuse all Muslims with the flipping Taliban.

And for the record, the male professors who have treated me with the most respect by far in my academic career? My Arabic professors. One was Moroccan, one was Palestinian and Egyptian, both were Muslims, both embraced the idea of white Westerners learning Arabic. In fact, in the second class I took, the most enthusiastic students were women. Both were very open about being Muslim and teaching us more about their own cultures. I hope someday I have time to pick up the language again in a group setting, because those were among the best educational experiences I have ever had.

If you're referring to the Arab-Israeli conflict, well, if some foreign power arbitrarily redrew the map so that you no longer had a country, would you not be a touch miffed? Neither side is helping itself, from what I've read over the years. Also, seriously? The leaders of Hamas are a representative sample? Hand me your pipe. There's some mighty good crack in it.

Agreed! Also, just because a certain population of extremists whether they be Muslim, Christian, Jews or otherwise refuses to debate does not mean we ought to adopt the same mentality. That is a terrible hypocrisy. We should be the standard we want to see. A lot of people say things like, "We give them so many rights. If you were to go over there you would not be treated with rights as a woman.". This is very true in some areas, but that doesn't mean we ought to relent, that we should give up or concede. We should continue to strive for something better.

[latraviata]

It is perfectly ok to snark about christianity/christians and not about islam/muslims??

That is what I call hypocrisy.

No I haven't read the Q'uran, why should I, did you read the Reg Veda, Thora?? We have many Hindu's , Budhists and a variety of people in our country and we are perfectly fine with that.

I lived in the Middle East though, does that count?

I don't feel like discussing this matter because I don't want to be qualified as a nazi or extreme right because I am not.

Even our government and the French, German and British ones acknowledge we have a huge problem concerning muslim immigrants and their refusal to adjust to western society.

No I was not referring to the Israel/Palestinian conflict and I most certainly don't want to discuss that one.

I know not every muslim is a terrorist and that is by all means not the point.

Muslims celebrating and shouting in our streets whilst we were having a few minutes of silence to commemorate the victims of 9/11 was quite annoying.

What about this:

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/ ... isons.html

Playing soccer with memorial wreaths on liberation (WW2) day.

The islamic no go areas in all the big cities in Europe.

Jewish men can't wear their yarmulke because they get beaten up by muslims, gays have been bullied and forced to sell their houses and relocate and the list goes on and on.

It is really a huge problem.

[JesusFightClub]

But we don't say "Christianity is bad by its very nature" like you seem to be saying about Islam. Yes there are bad aspects and bad people...like the fundies we snark on here, all religions have got them. But the majority are not that way.

We have female Muslim posters on this board. Are they oppressing us (non Muslims) by their presence? Are they trying to forcibly convert us all to Islam? No, they are kind, friendly and bring interesting perspectives to the discussion. The idea that all Muslims are on welfare is ridiculous too. I worked as a benefits officer, let me tell you it wasn't Muslims we were seeing in the office. They had jobs.

Finally, since you insulted socialists...my personal feelings about religion are probably best not shared with the board. But we socialists have a lot of time for people who follow religions, we want to hear about it, why they follow it. We don't want a group of people to be oppressed for their race or religion which is why we stand up for Muslims when they get demonised and treated like they're all benefits cheats secretly plotting the next 9/11. That simple.

[Patsy]

I don't think people should be shot down for identifying problems within a community. I don't know where to draw the line on this particular issue, and I think a lot of European countries have reacted wrongly in two ways (1- hesitating to condemn unacceptable trends and behaviours because that's seen to be criticising Islam/Muslims, and 2- in the opposite direction, deciding that the whole community is bad or Muslims need to be exported or forced not to show outward signs of belonging), but I don't see latraviata saying "They're all bad" or "they're inherently bad", just pointing out the problems she sees in relation to these communities in her area.

I will say that comments like this, though:

islam and its attitude towards jews, women, homosexuals and actually everybody not being a muslim are defined by being nazi's

Debate and consensus is not an option in the islamic culture

can definitely be interpreted to mean that there's just one group and one culture in which everyone has the problems mentioned. Yeah, that's oversimplifying (or poorly-worded, if it's not what you meant, latraviata.)

[Effie]

Naah that guy is stupid and has no understanding for anyone different than him. :naughty: I saw some of his videos a year ago. I remember I thought he was very hateful and intolerant of other people's beliefs. I think he is stereotyping a bunch of people.

Total bullshit: "Goodbye Sweden":

His reasoning reminds me of the madman in Norway except this certain man is atheist and not Christian. I'm also atheist but I love to learn about other people's religion. It's a beautiful thing to have a belief in something. Who is this man to question that? Also who does he think he is when he insults my country and the people living in it?

[latraviata]

I don't think people should be shot down for identifying problems within a community. I don't know where to draw the line on this particular issue, and I think a lot of European countries have reacted wrongly in two ways (1- hesitating to condemn unacceptable trends and behaviours because that's seen to be criticising Islam/Muslims, and 2- in the opposite direction, deciding that the whole community is bad or Muslims need to be exported or forced not to show outward signs of belonging), but I don't see latraviata saying "They're all bad" or "they're inherently bad", just pointing out the problems she sees in relation to these communities in her area.

I will say that comments like this, though:

can definitely be interpreted to mean that there's just one group and one culture in which everyone has the problems mentioned. Yeah, that's oversimplifying (or poorly-worded, if it's not what you meant, latraviata.)

Please if you quote me, do it properly:

People criticising islam and its attitude towards jews, women, homosexuals and actually everybody not being a muslim are defined by being nazi's.

and consensus is not an option but a sign of weakness in islamic culture. And I didn't make that one up, it has been established by the muslim community itself.

Apparantly I have insulted socialists, well:

David Lloyd George and not Winston Churchill said:

A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.â€

Well I am an old woman and I used to be a socialist in my student days back in the sixties/seventies now I am 62 and most certainly not a socialist anymore.

Don't bother to reply, this discussion is so predictable.

[emmiedahl]

I think part of this disagreement is cultural. I have family friends who live in France and they have a more extreme denomination of Islam than is popular in the States. I saw on the BBC that like 2/3 of Muslims in the UK are on welfare, maybe it is the same in France?

Not that Muslims are all extremist, not by any means. Just, for some reason a large percentage of Muslims don't seem to be integrating well into certain areas of Europe, which would color your perception if you lived there and encountered this on a daily basis. There are parts of town that non-Muslims are NOT allowed into, and Jews have been attacked randomly on the streets, and other events that have raised a certain amount of outcry.

[Childless]

Has anyone bothered to ask why Muslims in Europe don't seem to assimilate as well as Muslims in the States? Could it be that they feel they aren't being allowed to practice their religion freely (i.e. the ban on hijabs) whereas, in the States, their freedoms are better protected? Perhaps, if Europeans asked these questions and looked for the answers, things wouldn't be quite as bad.

[emmiedahl]

I think there is definitely more of a classist system in Europe and that this could be a contributing factor. The ban on hijab was a response to the issue, it came after the problems began.

eta: if I am not mistaken, it is a ban on any religious dress--cross jewelry and yarmulkes included.

[xDreamerx]

Has anyone bothered to ask why Muslims in Europe don't seem to assimilate as well as Muslims in the States? Could it be that they feel they aren't being allowed to practice their religion freely (i.e. the ban on hijabs) whereas, in the States, their freedoms are better protected? Perhaps, if Europeans asked these questions and looked for the answers, things wouldn't be quite as bad.

I feel, and this is just my opinion, that it might be due to the fact that Europe is more secular than America so America is more willing to accept faith (regardless of type) where as Europe seems to have a more hands off policy. Perhaps because it is controversial they think, if we try to remove religion all together things will improve. I know France has banned the hijab and other Muslim dress but I heard that they also banned all other religious clothing in schools, no crosses, no kippahs etc.

[emmiedahl]

Secularism is a huge part of French culture right now and they have little patience for religious display of any kind. I have never thought about how that might affect Muslims, but I could see it being a problem. However, Scandinavian countries are more tolerant and many are having the same problem. It's something I have thought about before. You hear about a lot of problems and tension over there, far more so than here, with the Muslim community. You hear about a generally more extreme Muslim community in Europe as well. Obviously one is in reaction to the other, but I don't which one came first or if they co-evolved.

In the US, the most "extreme" Muslims will wear niqab and put strict rules on women's behavior but generally denounce terrorism and violence. That's what fundamentalist Islam looks like here. Most are hardworking people who are meaningful and contributing members to society. We just don't have a Muslim crime problem or a Muslim social services overload in the US and I am curious why the experience here is so different.

[lovefromgirl]

I feel, and this is just my opinion, that it might be due to the fact that Europe is more secular than America so America is more willing to accept faith (regardless of type) where as Europe seems to have a more hands off policy. Perhaps because it is controversial they think, if we try to remove religion all together things will improve. I know France has banned the hijab and other Muslim dress but I heard that they also banned all other religious clothing in schools, no crosses, no kippahs etc.

See, that leaves an ugly taste in my mouth, that secularism to the point of banning expression of faith. I prefer to err on the side of "all faiths are welcome" rather than "no faith is welcome". I also think that governments have better things to do than, dear lord, regulate the wearing of crosses to school. It's one thing to insist that no one agenda be pushed by school officials; to me, personal religious practice doesn't constitute evangelism unless it actually involves evangelism, so why are people fussed? Surely France is not run by militant atheists?

[xDreamerx]

See, that leaves an ugly taste in my mouth, that secularism to the point of banning expression of faith. I prefer to err on the side of "all faiths are welcome" rather than "no faith is welcome". I also think that governments have better things to do than, dear lord, regulate the wearing of crosses to school. It's one thing to insist that no one agenda be pushed by school officials; to me, personal religious practice doesn't constitute evangelism unless it actually involves evangelism, so why are people fussed? Surely France is not run by militant atheists?

I know. It bothers me too. I find some atheists promote atheism as if it were a faith or something and I don't mean it in the bullshit way that fundies do, but there are some atheist websites that sell pins and have people posting stories of "winning over to atheism". To me that's no better then selling a bunch of religious crap or evangelizing to people. Replace atheism with Jesus and it's the same thing.

Also, I don't like it because it restricts people's liberties.

[latraviata]

Has anyone bothered to ask why Muslims in Europe don't seem to assimilate as well as Muslims in the States? Could it be that they feel they aren't being allowed to practice their religion freely (i.e. the ban on hijabs) whereas, in the States, their freedoms are better protected? Perhaps, if Europeans asked these questions and looked for the answers, things wouldn't be quite as bad.

No of course not, we don't bother at all. After 40 years of immigratiom we have absolutely no clue! I will advice our officials to consult you, because this is a revelation!! We really need you in Bruxelles!! How ignorant can you be, you never read anything about foreign countries do you??

Years and years of research (until this very day), billions of euro's spend on integration projects. Mosks have been funded by the governments and there are a lot of mosks!

Europe in its innocence thought, if we give them everything they demand, no matter wether it violates the separation of church and state, freedom of speech, they will be ok and integrate, well not! Have you any idea how many comedians, cartoonists, politicians (right and left) are being (death) threathened, because of jokes, suggestions and opinions and need 24/7 protection?

So, now the result of the studies are less PC and we all aknowledge we have been too tolerant and we have victimised them and we should take the USA as an example. Other than in Europe you have to work for money, not in Europe as soon as you enter the country, you are on lifelong welfare and you get supplementary payments for all your wifes and children.

The European muslim 'minority' is in proportion to the muslim community in the USA much and much larger.

By the way I live in the Netherlands, one of the most tolerant countries. France has a very restricted separation of church and state (Laïcité) but on friday night the streets of Paris are plastered with praying men and not accessible for non muslims and traffic. The French gave the statue of liberty as a present to the USA didn't they??

So much about tolerance.

And yes we are secular and the religious preference of our politicians and administration is not of any siginificance, nobody cares, unless they are fundamentalists, christian or otherwise, but they hardly have a voice.

And no, nobody forces religious people to atheism, so to compare atheism to the christian fundies is preposterous.

One is atheist or not, there are no levels of intensity in atheism.

[Kelya]

No of course not, we don't bother at all. After 40 years of immigratiom we have absolutely no clue! I will advice our officials to consult you, because this is a revelation!! We really need you in Bruxelles!! How ignorant can you be, you never read anything about foreign countries do you??

Years and years of research (until this very day), billions of euro's spend on integration projects. Mosks have been funded by the governments and there are a lot of mosks!

Europe in its innocence thought, if we give them everything they demand, no matter wether it violates the separation of church and state, freedom of speech, they will be ok and integrate, well not! Have you any idea how many comedians, cartoonists, politicians (right and left) are being (death) threathened, because of jokes, suggestions and opinions and need 24/7 protection?

So, now the result of the studies are less PC and we all aknowledge we have been too tolerant and we have victimised them and we should take the USA as an example. Other than in Europe you have to work for money, not in Europe as soon as you enter the country, you are on lifelong welfare and you get supplementary payments for all your wifes and children.

The European muslim 'minority' is in proportion to the muslim community in the USA much and much larger.

By the way I live in the Netherlands, one of the most tolerant countries. France has a very restricted separation of church and state (Laïcité) but on friday night the streets of Paris are plastered with praying men and not accessible for non muslims and traffic. The French gave the statue of liberty as a present to the USA didn't they??

So much about tolerance.

And yes we are secular and the religious preference of our politicians and administration is not of any siginificance, nobody cares, unless they are fundamentalists, christian or otherwise, but they hardly have a voice.

And no, nobody forces religious people to atheism, so to compare atheism to the christian fundies is preposterous.

One is atheist or not, there are no levels of intensity in atheism.

Hon, you sound crazy. Take a step back.

[JesusFightClub]

Please if you quote me, do it properly:

People criticising islam and its attitude towards jews, women, homosexuals and actually everybody not being a muslim are defined by being nazi's.

and consensus is not an option but a sign of weakness in islamic culture. And I didn't make that one up, it has been established by the muslim community itself.

Apparantly I have insulted socialists, well:

David Lloyd George and not Winston Churchill said:

A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.â€

Well I am an old woman and I used to be a socialist in my student days back in the sixties/seventies now I am 62 and most certainly not a socialist anymore.

Don't bother to reply, this discussion is so predictable.

latraviata, if you don't want people to reply to you, don't say provocative and insulting things. This is communication 101. :roll: In your interactions on this board, though (and I suspect elsewhere) you never have seemed to understand this simple fact of life.

[latraviata]

Hon, you sound crazy. Take a step back.

Darling, what an encouraging and intelligent observation!

[latraviata]

latraviata, if you don't want people to reply to you, don't say provocative and insulting things. This is communication 101. :roll: In your interactions on this board, though (and I suspect elsewhere) you never have seemed to understand this simple fact of life.

What is so provocative and insulting about pointing out that I have been wrongly quoted?

What is communication? Keep your 'controversial' or deviated responses to yourself?

And just out of curiousity what has this to do with simple facts of life??

No, I don't have the experience elsewhere.

And yes, this discussion is predictable.

[JesusFightClub]

No of course not, we don't bother at all. After 40 years of immigratiom we have absolutely no clue! I will advice our officials to consult you, because this is a revelation!! We really need you in Bruxelles!! How ignorant can you be, you never read anything about foreign countries do you??

Years and years of research (until this very day), billions of euro's spend on integration projects. Mosks have been funded by the governments and there are a lot of mosks!

Europe in its innocence thought, if we give them everything they demand, no matter wether it violates the separation of church and state, freedom of speech, they will be ok and integrate, well not! Have you any idea how many comedians, cartoonists, politicians (right and left) are being (death) threathened, because of jokes, suggestions and opinions and need 24/7 protection?

So, now the result of the studies are less PC and we all aknowledge we have been too tolerant and we have victimised them and we should take the USA as an example. Other than in Europe you have to work for money, not in Europe as soon as you enter the country, you are on lifelong welfare and you get supplementary payments for all your wifes and children.

The European muslim 'minority' is in proportion to the muslim community in the USA much and much larger.

By the way I live in the Netherlands, one of the most tolerant countries. France has a very restricted separation of church and state (Laïcité) but on friday night the streets of Paris are plastered with praying men and not accessible for non muslims and traffic. The French gave the statue of liberty as a present to the USA didn't they??

So much about tolerance.

And yes we are secular and the religious preference of our politicians and administration is not of any siginificance, nobody cares, unless they are fundamentalists, christian or otherwise, but they hardly have a voice.

And no, nobody forces religious people to atheism, so to compare atheism to the christian fundies is preposterous.

One is atheist or not, there are no levels of intensity in atheism.

I never thought I would be embarrassed to be a European until this day when I realised people like you are representing us to the US. You have told at least three absolute lies in this post.

I don't like fundamentalist religion any more than you do. But what you are saying is NOT the case. You're speaking the language of the EDL. You're speaking the language of the BNP. I will NOT sit by and hear Americans be told this is "how Europeans think" as if all non Muslims believe this nonsense.

Are there problems within the Muslim community? Yes. Are there problems within poor white communities? Yes. Are there problems everywhere? YES. Muslims are not responsible for some greater evil than other people any more than a Christian is responsible for everything the UDF or the IRA have done.

I get that you didn't like living in the Middle East. Boo hoo, poor widdle you. It must have been terrible to live abroad with your diplomat husband in what was probably a sealed compound. Try living in a sink estate on benefits. I promise you that you will find that...extremely enlightening.