I couldn't have said it better - Pat Condell

[Shirley MacLaine]

you viscous, hateful, petty monster.

I am now picturing Latravi as an angry jar of molasses.

This thread is on crazypills, I tell you what.

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[formergothardite]

Almost every single thread with Latravi disolves into something like this, so I don't find it nearly as crazy as I used to.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I know, I unfortunately once made the mistake of telling Latravi to have a xanax.

[Burris]

I want to rewind a bit, and address a few points of misunderstanding:

1) I write the way I do because the way I see it, writing and research are the only things I'm actually half-way decent at, so I take pride in them. It's not out of a desire to knuckle other people under or scare them off or whatever it is you think I'm doing.

2) I don't recall what I said when you initially told about your son, and I've never got the hang of what to say to people who are suffering. I feel duty-bound to say something and to try making it something helpful, but I'm awkward as hell at it and I'm pretty much always at a loss.

3) It's one thing to identify a problem, but another in my opinion to dehumanize the targets of your rhetoric - which is precisely what some of the rightist politicians in your neck of the woods are doing. What they say can't be true of Islam as a whole. If it were, then we'd be facing the same problems here - and we're not. I know some Muslims. My husband's friend - an actual friend; not just someone he sees every once in awhile - is a Muslim originally from Iraq and he places a lot of emphasis on charity and freedom.

He;s helped us out of a bind more than once.

Maybe it's an admixture of Islam and your culture. Maybe its because of the economic conditions. Maybe it's something else.

But Islam - there are over a billion Muslims in the world. Some of them will use Islam as an excuse to do evil, even as the fundies we discuss here - a relative handful from the billion or so Christians in the world - do, but they can't blame their religion for that: They're bad because that's what they, as individuals, decided to be. They don't have anything to blame for that but themselves.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am now picturing Latravi as an angry jar of molasses.

This thread is on crazypills, I tell you what.

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Any True Blood fans in the thread? Remember when Russell was toting Talbot around in that giant glass jam jar? Yeah, that's what I thought about.

[Effie]

I think some music is in order:

You’ve got opinions, man

We’re all entitled to ‘em, but I never asked

So let me thank you for your time, and try not to waste anymore of mine

And get out of here fast

Who cares if you disagree?

You are not me

Who made you king of anything?

So you dare tell me who to be?

Who died and made you king of anything?

Okay, very OT but I feel this thread has derailed. Happens way too much here.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Any True Blood fans in the thread? Remember when Russell was toting Talbot around in that giant glass jam jar? Yeah, that's what I thought about.

:lol:

[latraviata]

I shouldn't have said what I did most recently. I let it get too personal.

As for the pills, though, of course I didn't think about whether you're taking actual medication.

It was meant as an insult, yes, but not as the kind of personal swipe you thought it was.

Well, it seemed manipulative at the time. But that still doesn't make it right how I phrased my response.

I have your words, and that's it. You mention media a lot, but not much else. You can't just keep moving the goal posts and expect that I'm going to take that seriously.

It's not right to make sweeping generalizations like that. You're helping to create a dangerous and volatile climate.

You're contributing to the problem.

Well even academic papers are found on the internet.

You are a direct association with the comment you made in regard to this this particular story. The fact that you can't remember it, says it all, not of any significance and written just to show off your alleged profound insights in the human spirit.

Well unfortunately I have to end this enlightening conversation, because I have to attend a plenary assemble of the 'White Power Movement' and I have to finish editing 'Mein Kampf' to a readable level. I know you will understand that. Somebody has to keep these warriors for a better world informed properly.

I will gladly send you a copy, which language do you prefer? Ancient Greek or Arab?

[Burris]

Well even academic papers are found on the internet.

You are a direct association with the comment you made in regard to this this particular story. The fact that you can't remember it, says it all, not of any significance and written just to show off your alleged profound insights in the human spirit.

No. Read up-thread on this page.

And be serious: You honestly expect me or anyone to remember specifics of old conversations with you?

Well unfortunately I have to end this enlightening conversation, because I have to attend a plenary assemble of the 'White Power Movement' and I have to finish editing 'Mein Kampf' to a readable level. I know you will understand that. Somebody has to keep these warriors for a better world informed properly.

I will gladly send you a copy, which language do you prefer? Ancient Greek or Arab?

Mein Kampf is unreadable. Just send it as toilet paper, which is better than it deserves.

[keen23]

I was actually hoping to get a translation of Mein Kampf in Aramaic or Hawaiian, but even Latin would do in a pinch, I suppose...

[Witsec1]

I'm thinking of writing a book about my struggle against the muslim threat and their liberal and communist allies here on FJ. But what to call it?

[Effie]

I'm thinking of writing a book about my struggle against the muslim threat and their liberal and communist allies here on FJ. But what to call it?

Fuck you all

[Burris]

Latraviata:

Were you referring to this?

Because that's the only time I can think of that we discussed it.

If so, then...um...you wrongly assumed bad faith, and a whole lot of other things as well.

I'm legally blind and my husband is a wheelchair user with a disability caused by genetics.

We've talked a lot about what makes life worth living. It was from that place that I responded to you.

You just assumed the worst because...well, it seems you're predisposed to assuming the worst.

[latraviata]

Latraviata:

Were you referring to this?

Because that's the only time I can think of that we discussed it.

If so, then...um...you wrongly assumed bad faith, and a whole lot of other things as well.

I'm legally blind and my husband is a wheelchair user with a disability caused by genetics.

We've talked a lot about what makes life worth living. It was from that place that I responded to you.

You just assumed the worst because...well, it seems you're predisposed to assuming the worst.

No I don't assume the worst, au contraire I am a very optimistic and trusting person.

But, you know people respond in their own unique way and it was not your place to postumely criticise him in this stereotypical fashion. The whole converstation I had with him years ago was hypothetical and had never any negative effect on my relationship with him. It is what my oldest son who is a radiologist calls the 'Lance Armstrong' syndrome. You can conquer everything, cancer, renal disease, caking farts as long as you fight. Fight what? All you need is luck and a damn good docter. I am sorry about your disabilities and lucky you, to handle it so well.

That comment dear Burris (to kill a mockingbird?) was presumpteous in my book and very Oprah/Dr Philish I am allergic to both of them, on another note I find the value of life often very overrated. When we have a life, by all means make the most of it, because we only have one.

But when life is all misery and pain, there is not much to it, is there? We as human beings are not at liberty to determine who's life is valuable or not, that is a very personal experience.

At times my sons life was very miserable, a lot of pain, two kidney transplants heading for the third one.

He died of complications of dialysis, imagine he survived the complications, with a colostomy, no renal function, damaged lungs because of the artificial respiration and a fortnight of complete anesthesia which also possibly would have changed his character. You think that would have been a valuable life for a 28 year old? Well perhaps it was for me, his mother, perhaps for another 28 year old.

Fortunately I didn't have to make 'the decision' he passed away 'naturally and peacefully'.

[latraviata]

Fuck you all

No thank you, if you would have asked me more politely I might have considered the possiblity.

[Burris]

Well, you know people respond in their own unique way but it was not your place to postumely criticise him in this stereotypical fashion. The whole converstation was hypothetical and had never any negative effect on my relationship with him.

If you bring ideas to light in an open forum, then people might challenge you on them.

You took my comment as a criticism of your son. That's not how I meant it: I meant it as a criticism of the mindset.

You said you gave him a 'cowardly PC answer' and that offended the shit out of me. It was "PC" to say his life was worth living? What the hell?

It is what my oldest son who is a radiologist calls the 'Lance Armstrong' syndrome. You can conquer everything, cancer, renal disease, caking farts as long as you fight. Fight what? All you need is luck and a damn good docter.

I didn't say that. Not even remotely. You assumed the worst.

I am sorry about your disabilities and lucky you, to handle it so well.

Thanks for being "sorry" for me, but I don't think you understood a thing I said in that regard.

That comment dear Burris (to kill a mockingbird?) was presumpteous in my book and very Oprah/Dr Philish on another note I find the value of life often very overrated.

You brought it up first - and in a thread about abortion rights. That's a hot topic. What did you expect?

I'm serious: Why would you bring that up if you're still so raw about it? People here aren't going to treat you with kid gloves. For crying out loud, you've seen the other threads here.

I assumed - yes, assumed - that if you were talking about it here, then you were open to getting even less than favorable responses.

And "the value of life if sometimes overrated"? I don't even know where to begin with that.

But when life is all misery and pain, there is not much to it, is there?

You often get out of it what you put into it - and no, that's not some cheap, pat answer; it's my experience talking.

Yeah, some people get a bum rap. They end up with conditions that hobble them. But it's presumptuous to valuate their lives based primarily on the things they can't do.

At times my sons life was very miserable, a lot of pain, two kidney transplants heading for the third one.

He died of complications of dialysis, imagine he survived the complications, with a colostomy, no renal function, damaged lungs because of the artificial respiration and a fortnight of complete anesthesia which also possibly would have changed his character.

Most people here are nearly complete strangers to you. Of course we sympathize, but...we don't know you.

This isn't the first time you've had a conversation like this here. You seem to want...something - I don't know what.

You've held a grudge about this for two months.

You think that would have been a valuable life for a 28 year old?

You're asking for my opinion, so I'll give it to you: YES! I think that's a valuable life.

It mattered to him. It mattered to you. It was valuable.

[latraviata]

If you bring ideas to light in an open forum, then people might challenge you on them.

You said you gave him a 'cowardly PC answer' and that offended the shit out of me. It was "PC" to say his life was worth living? What the hell?

I didn't say that. Not even remotely. You assumed the worst.

Thanks for being "sorry" for me, but I don't think you understood a thing I said in that regard.

You brought it up first - and in a thread about abortion rights. That's a hot topic. What did you expect?

I'm serious: Why would you bring that up if you're still so raw about it? People here aren't going to treat you with kid gloves. For crying out loud, you've seen the other threads here.

I assumed - yes, assumed - that if you were talking about it here, then you were open to getting even less than favorable responses.

And "the value of life if sometimes overrated"? I don't even know where to begin with that.

You often get out of it what you put into it - and no, that's not some cheap, pat answer; it's my experience talking.

Yeah, some people get a bum rap. They end up with conditions that hobble them. But it's presumptuous to valuate their lives based primarily on the things they can't do.

Most people here are nearly complete strangers to you. Of course we sympathize, but...we don't know you.

This isn't the first time you've had a conversation like this here. You seem to want...something - I don't know what.

You've held a grudge about this for two months.

You're asking for my opinion, so I'll give it to you: YES! I think that's a valuable life.

It mattered to him. It mattered to you. It was valuable.

The PC answer, yes I found it extremely difficult to tell an existing child, well yes I would have aborted you had I known everything. What does that tell him about his value of life to me?

No I wasn't asking your opinion it was a hypothetical question and yes his life was valuable to me,but obviously not so much to him. He hated being sick, he hated the restrictions and the regime of the daily medication which made him obese and blown up like a balloon. And as I said we are not all the same. But I really detest platitudes and discussions about 'the value of life' and the moralising tone which I find particularly disturbing.

It is a personal story and as you noticed I don't mind a bit people being hash to me. And by all means let them not change their tone because they feel sorry for me, that is the last I need.

One comment on Zsu's blog talked about us feminsts, working women all on SSRI's, immediatly a number of women came forward with their use of SSRI's and the reason why, so did I and I told the reason and one led to the other. The use of SSRI's has been thrown in my face on numerous occasions and it feels like, don't tell because it will be used against you. I find it rather cheap to confront somebody with her/his use of medication to explain the insanity of the expressed opinions, yes that hits a nerve.

I don't feel raw about it but irritated.

You took my comment as a criticism of your son. That's not how I meant it: I meant it as a criticism of the mindset.

His mindset, my mindset, the mindset in general?

It was about abortion I know, the only thing I wanted to explain with this example is that not everybody is grateful for the life given to them.

I dealt with child abuse, children beaten to eventually their death their entire 15 months of their little life.

But their life was valuable? To whom? To their parents, themselves, society?

That was what I meant.

[Burris]

The PC answer, yes I found it extremely difficult to tell an existing child, well yes I would have aborted you had I known everything. What does that tell him about his value of life to me?

But if you valued his life such that you couldn't say, "Well yeah, I would have had an abortion if I'd known, given the person in front of me now," then it wasn't merely a "PC" answer; it was an honest answer.

No I wasn't asking your opinion it was a hypothetical question and yes his life was valuable to me,but obviously not so much to him.

Asked or unasked, people are going to give their opinions. In hindsight, it was a bad time to give mine.

But that aside, it happens. That's in the very nature of this forum.

He hated being sick, he hated the restrictions and the regime of the daily medication which made him obese and blown up like a balloon. And as I said we are not all the same. But I really detest platitudes and discussions about 'the value of life' and the moralising tone which I find particularly disturbing.

Yeah, you assume it's all platitudes - that is, the negative responses you get are thoughtless and trite rather then well-considered.

That's on you.

It is a personal story and as you noticed I don't mind a bit people being hash to me. And by all means let them not change their tone because they feel sorry for me, that is the last I need.

You do: Someone makes a passing comment at you - e.g., in jest, like another poster mentioned - and it happens to touch a nerve, then you get angry and start going on about how insensitive they are.

One comment on Zsu's blog talked about us feminsts, working women all on SSRI's, immediatly a number of women came forward with their use of SSRI's and the reason why, so did I and I told the reason and one led to the other. The use of SSRI's has been thrown in my face on numerous occasions and it feels like, don't tell because it will be used against you.

You know, I'm probably going to regret the hell out of this, but I'm going to say it anyone: I take Citelopram, an SSRI, in conjunction with anti-anxiety medication. I have for years. Yeah, it's kind of embarrassing sometimes. I wonder why I can't just...snap out of it; why I'm sometimes anxious to the point of incapacitation.

But Zsuzsanna? She and her husband are a couple of the nastiest assholes around. Why would you care what she thinks?

Most of her readers are assholes, too.

I thought it was kind of brave for you to tell her, but I couldn't - and I still can't - figure out for the life of me why you did it.

She wasn't going to change her mind. I'm not even sure she has a working mind. A brain? Yes.

Thoughtfulness? A mind? Fuuuu....no.

I find it rather cheap to confront somebody with her/his use of medication to explain the insanity of the expressed opinions, yes that hits a nerve.

I don't feel raw about it but irritated.

"Stupid Pills" - it's a fairly common idiom, referring not to the use of actual medication but to a situation where someone is acting well outside their own normal routine and in a way the respondent sees as kind of dumb. The implication is that they downed a bottle of pills specifically designed to make them stupid. hence the term.

It didn't even occur to me you'd take it the way you did. I wasn't kidding when I say your English is good. The idea you wouldn't have recognized the idiom for what it was hadn't even crossed my mind.

And then when you brought your son up, seemingly out of the blue, I took for an attempt at crass manipulation. I guess it wasn't, and I'm sorry - both for assuming it was, and for phrasing that assumption the way I did.

His mindset, my mindset, the mindset in general?

The mindset in general - and yeah, it also bothered me that he would be so down on himself. I wondered how much of that was prejudice he'd internalized from doctors or peers.

It was about abortion I know, the only thing I wanted to explain with this example is that not everybody is grateful for the life given to them.

And what I was trying to point out is that people shouldn't assume the fetus would grow into someone who didn't enjoy life. It's a common assumption, and yet a lot of people with disabilities do enjoy their lives.

I dealt with child abuse, children beaten to eventually their death their entire 15 months of their little life. But their life was valuable? To whom? To their parents, themselves, society? That was what I meant.

Their lives were, or should have been, valuable to their parents; and protected by society. If they had lived to become fully aware, it's reasonable to assume they'd have valued their own lives too. It was in part because their parents didn't recognize value that they treated their own flesh and blood such a way.

Their lives weren't less valuable - in other words, they weren't worth less - simply because their parents killed them. The kids aren't the ones whose lives are devalued by that. The parents devalue themselves.

[latraviata]

But if you valued his life such that you couldn't say, "Well yeah, I would have had an abortion if I'd known, given the person in front of me now," then it wasn't merely a "PC" answer; it was an honest answer.

Yes, it is always very easy to tell somebody what he/she should have said, I wasn't really prepared for a question like that, but I am glad you have the answers I hear violins and the moral message, Jesus Christ!!

"Stupid Pills" - it's a fairly common idiom, referring not to the use of actual medication but to a situation where someone is acting well outside their own normal routine and in a way the respondent sees as kind of dumb. The implication is that they downed a bottle of pills specifically designed to make them stupid. hence the term.

I honestly didn't know that, I sincerely believed that was a referrence to my medication.

The mindset in general - and yeah, it also bothered me that he would be so down on himself. I wondered how much of that was prejudice he'd internalized from doctors or peers.

No he wasn't, that was who he was. Of course he has been bullied but he handled that quite easily with the help of his older brother. He was, what we call a melancholic by nature, very intelligent, very sensitive, but also very witty, as it brother memorised in the eulogy "he perceived life from the side line and made comments with mild irony, amusing and kind."

And what I was trying to point out is that people shouldn't assume the fetus would grow into someone who didn't enjoy life. It's a common assumption, and yet a lot of people with disabilities do enjoy their lives.

Of course they do, my point was, that is not always the case.

Their lives were, or should have been, valuable to their parents; and protected by society. If they had lived to become fully aware, it's reasonable to assume they'd have valued their own lives too. It was in part because their parents didn't recognize value that they treated their own flesh and blood such a way.

Their lives weren't less valuable - in other words, they weren't worth less - simply because their parents killed them. The kids aren't the ones whose lives are devalued by that. The parents devalue themselves.

It shoud have been, but it wasn't.

I treated older children from an abusive situation and some of them were miserable and unfortunately beyond help, so damaged you cannot imagine and again, some of them were able to build a decent life for themselves, others were completely powerless.

In the corner of my heart I sometimes thought you were better off being aborted in the first place. This sounds horrible I know, but what I mean is, I am opposed to a life at all costs because it is so valuable and precious, very often it just isn't. The fundies are dead wrong about that. Well they are wrong about everything.

This isn't the first time you've had a conversation like this here. You seem to want...something - I don't know what.

You've held a grudge about this for two months.

No, I don't want anything, but I use to speak my mind and a good discussion is very amusing and deriving.

No I don't get angry, honestly I don't, there is a lot of sarcasm in my answers and I don't feel like explaining myself all the time, I already do that too often for my taste

I also think there are some cultural differences. My social backround is very different, not better, not worse just different.

For the rest my son told me that discussions on internet very often (a fairly high percentage) derail, because of language, anonymity, no expressions, voice, eyes, gestures, intonations, all very understandable but I must confess I never had so much resistance as I had here LOL!!

About the grudge, yes apparantly it was there and I didn't realise it until today.

Well, I have to drag my old bones to bed it is 1:32 AM.

Goodnight

[Burris]

Yes, it is always very easy to tell somebody what he/she should have said, I wasn't really prepared for a question like that, but I am glad you have the answers I hear violins and the moral message, Jesus Christ!!

That's not exactly what I meant: I'm saying the answer you gave your son didn't seem cowardly. It seemed honest.

Jesus Christ! :D

I honestly didn't know that, I sincerely believed that was a referrence to my medication.

Yeah, I should have caught on sooner to the misunderstanding. Like I said, though, it simply didn't occur to me.

No he wasn't, that was who he was. Of course he has been bullied but he handled that quite easily with the help of his older brother. He was, what we call a melancholic by nature, very intelligent, very sensitive, but also very witty, as it brother memorised in the eulogy "he perceived life from the side line and made comments with mild irony, amusing and kind."

...and...

Of course they do, my point was, that is not always the case.

We have certain philosophical disagreements. I don't think we're going to reach any sort of agreement on this.

I'm glad we got a chance to clear some stuff up though.

I treated older children from an abusive situation and some of them were miserable and unfortunately beyond help, so damaged you cannot imagine and again, some of them were able to build a decent life for themselves, others were completely powerless.

In the corner of my heart I sometimes thought you were better off being aborted in the first place. This sounds horrible I know, but what I mean is, I am opposed to a life at all costs because it is so valuable and precious, very often it just isn't.

But - and I mean this in all sincerity - is it really possible for a crime to subtract worth from the life of a crime victim?

The victim may see his own life as being worth less, but it's not actually worth less. It's worth whatever any life is worth.

And I think it's prudent to assume the best - even if I fail at it sometimes.

[Alecto]

I just want to point out that I am interested in how, in general, Islam is painted with such a broad brush.

I have been fortunate enough to be in an academic setting for the past few years, and have gotten to know my fair share of Muslim men and women. There is one point I want to bring up, because I feel like it's not being addressed -

Muslims come from different cultures and those cultures significantly impact their behavior as well.

A lot of things we might chalk up to "Evil Islam" are tribal customs, local customs, and things that have less to do with the person being Muslim and more to do with someone being Saudi or Pakistani or Somali, and the way that culture has integrated with their faith.

There are also multiple branches and "Denominations" of Islam, some as different as Catholics and Unitarians.

I've done a lot of reading about Islam over the past few years. As a religion, it really does appeal to me, and this reading has also opened my eyes to how intricate, complicated and diverse Islamic culture is.

[Guest Anonymous]

Edited because ramming my head repeatedly into a brick wall would be more productive.

[latraviata]

I don't feel like starting the discussion all over again.

But I don't discriminate people on their colour and their name in fact I don't discriminate at all, I may have strong opinions about this particular subject but that is not the same as discriminating people.

In Europe we have enormous problems with non western immigrants, yes muslims.

People fom Europe posted their story here on this thread and one is perhaps more nuanced than the other, but they all admit the huge problems and the failure of European multiculturism.

No endearing and well adjusted professor, friend, student, grocery man and brother in law is going to change that.

My opinion about islam differs from yours and I can tell you this much, you can't compare islam with christianity it is totally different.

I am not going to elaborate that, that is absolutely pointless.

Here some links about Ayaan Hirsi Ali who has been bullied out of our country because she was criticising islam, she is an apostate and therefore under constant surveillance because of the death threads. And yes I know, the first is Fox news, but still... the second is fora tv fairly neutral.......

and

[latraviata]

Burris

I was responding to this remark and got carried away a bit:

quote]and yeah, it also bothered me that he would be so down on himself. I wondered how much of that was prejudice he'd internalized from doctors or peers.

[Soldevi]

The problem we have with Somalians isn't with their religion. When the first ones arrived through Soviet Union in early 1990's, Finland was in deep recession phase. We didn't have resources to assimilate them better and media and people were quite hostile against them. The other huge problem was that these first ones weren't really those who needed help most. They were the ones who paid themselves out of Somalia, the rich secular class. Well, back to recession. Because of this hostile atmosphere, Somalians moved near each others. We still don't have places like Malmö where most of the people living in area are nonnatives. The only place in my own hometown where I don't want to go during night time is habitated by natives with social problems such as alcoholism and high criminal activity. I have never had problem with immigrants or nonnatives (if you don't count on that when drunken Spanish foreing students sang la marcha real in student village very loudly at 4 am...). I live in an university town where foreing students and workers are a common sight. Finland is relatively safe place in Europe.

Unfortunately in Finland Somalians too are victim of generalisation. When they (police and other authorities) started to dig deeper why Somalians are on top of the crime statistics (during 1997-2006 4 % of robbery suspects were Somalians) they found out that there is a small group who is very active. And Finns are active against Somalians, too. Our biggest immigrant groups are Russians, Estonians and Vietnamese and some 10 % of them have gone through violence or threath of it whereas Somalians over 40 %. According to European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights Somalians in Finland face more discrimination than any other minority group in Europe.

There are many reasons with Somalians like their over 90 % illiteracy rate when they arrive to Finland. Second generation Somalians are doing much better. These kind of social problems, NOT the religion. For example muslim Kurds are quite secular group as a whole.

We have still time to correct our wrong decisions and learn about other Europe's problems. Like I said earlier, the general antimuslim atmosphere has landed in Finland, not the problems. There might be because our biggest anti-EU and anti-immigrant political party want to do just the opposite like barring all immigrants in same part of the city. Oh yes, ghettos really are the answer...