Daniel & Candice Keller got a baby!

[pomology]

If your relatives post private information about you publically after being asked not to, then yes, they are assholes. That is what that sentence meant. That hopefully your relatives won't be assholes and will respect your privacy.

I read this as her saying that her relatives were assholes even in the best of circumstances, so to expect them not to be assholes in other contexts would just be preposterous. But I might be wrong.

Honestly, I like Candice, I feel bad for the way her in-laws treated her and Daniel, I understand why she was so upset about this thread, and she seems to understand that adoption is not always the best case, but in her case it was in the best interest of both parties. It's really a shame she came onto FJ hotheaded, because if she'd had a slightly different attitude, I could see her as feeling very welcome on FJ.

[bananacat]

I am so happy for this little baby and new family. What is the ultimate importance is this new life - not what happened at the beginning of his gestation. Sadly, some of the responses sound like some posters begrudge his birth because the mom originally wanted to abort. Clearly, and thankfully, she changed her mind.

I always think of my first cousin, who is adopted, saying if she ever met her birth mother she knew exactly what she would say - "Thank you for not having an abortion."

Congratulations, Daniel and Candice. Brighton is a beautiful baby.

It's so stupid to thank someone for not having an abortion. I never thank my mom for not having an abortion. Because if she had had one I wouldn't exist to know or care about it. Would your cousin also thank your birth mom for having a birth control failure? Would your cousin thank her birth mom for having sex at the right time and with the right person? I just really hate this existential thing, and being pro-choice doesn't make it any less illogical. If any one of a trillion different things had happened differently, you wouldn't exist and you wouldn't know anything about it. If things had been different then, things would be different now.

And no, none of us begrudges Brighton's birth. What we begrudge is the long history and currently still common tactic of coercing women into having babies that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen without the pressure. Crisis Pregnancy Centers are still thriving, so it's not unreasonable to think that there was coercion in this case, especially with the way it was phrased and the fundie history of at least one of the adoptive parents. If you can't understand why this possibility of coercion is alarming, then you really need to take a step back and stop implying that we're all mad that some baby was born, because that is a straw man of the actual issue. So either you don't understand the complexity of the issue, or you do understand and you are making this comment in bad faith.

[Patsy]

And no, none of us begrudges Brighton's birth. What we begrudge is the long history and currently still common tactic of coercing women into having babies that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen without the pressure. Crisis Pregnancy Centers are still thriving, so it's not unreasonable to think that there was coercion in this case, especially with the way it was phrased and the fundie history of at least one of the adoptive parents. If you can't understand why this possibility of coercion is alarming, then you really need to take a step back and stop implying that we're all mad that some baby was born, because that is a straw man of the actual issue. So either you don't understand the complexity of the issue, or you do understand and you are making this comment in bad faith.

And on this day I am team bananacat. Well said.

[Palimpsest]

I believe that probably was the real Candice, sorry I missed her. I don't think she flounced exactly -- she told us where to contact her. She met with a pretty hostile reception by a couple of people. Yeah, yeah, I know, trolls need to be slapped down, but why assume this was a troll and immediately call her an attention-whore? Anyway, Candice and Daniel are not part of the cult. She was flustered and annoyed that we were discussing her and Brighton, but I can understand that.

For the Keller siblings who didn't sign-up for TLC infamy it must be a shock to realise that simply participating in a family wedding lays them open to random snooping on Facebook. Rebecca's husband Josh posted a better thought out request for privacy on TWoP years ago. I deleted my own Facebook because I couldn't figure out the privacy options so I'm not going to piss on Candice because she didn't realize that she was going so public. A learning experience.

Candice, if you are still reading, all the best for your new family. Brighton is adorable and I like his name. :D

I know she already flounced, but I take some issue with her above statement. Yes, there is a ton of love in adoption, but there is a ton of pain in many cases. Frankly, I would never, ever have an open adoption with my kid's bio-mom. I am glad that works for you, Candice, but some of us are parenting children whose bio-parents are drug addled hookers, who abused said child. There is not enough "healing" in the world to make me want to have that woman in our life. It's fabulous that your adoption is all roses and joy, but, again, not every case is the same.

My daughter is not allowed to say bad things about the woman who gave birth to her, but we do talk about "That Lady's" actions in our several times a week therapy. I will be supportive, when she turns 18, if she wants to see the woman who birthed her, but I would guess, knowing my daughter, it would just be to bitch slap her. A lot can change in 13 years.

I am very glad you have a healthy, loved child. It made me actually laugh out loud to read what you posted about LardLad.

I will be honest: I would have advised my kid's bio-mom to have an abortion. Am I grateful that she did not? Yes, I am. But, she nearly destroyed a toddler, and I will be spending the rest of my life trying to give her the life she should have had. Adoption is not a one size fits all. What is "Healthy" for you would be sick for me.

Can one of you help me down off of this soapbox? I've had some wine and my hip hurts.

For the soapbox comment :lol: I'm teetering on one myself!

I'm another one of the baby-scoop generation adopted children, and I have a lot to say about the bullying and coercion of the unwed mothers forced to relinquish their babies. The pain they experienced and also the annoyance at the petty roadblocks and frustration tracking down ANY information about my genetic heritage. I don't even feel I need to meet the woman who gave birth to me -- but I'll try not to go there today!

To the bolded, absolutely! Pain for every member of the triad off-set by a lot of overwhelming love. Candice seems a bit naive (the baby scoop info surprised her) and still in the honeymoon stage of adoption. Maybe she learned something by coming here. One of the things I'd like to say to her: Yes, Candice, women are still coerced into giving up their babies today! Thanks Bananacat. That's what people were worried about. I'm very glad Brighton came to you so easily and there was no coercion involved.

Angri-la, I think you are an exceptional mom. Your descriptions of your daughter's First Mother make it clear that she should not have contact, and I understand why you and your daughter refer to her as "That Lady." FWIW, I try to avoid negative terminology myself (yes, bio-mom is also considered negative) because I have met so many baby scoop era mothers in my own, careful and unsuccessful, search and heard their pain. I wonder though. Drug addiction, prostitution, and abuse go hand in hand. If "That Lady" ever got clean, genuinely clean, would your view point change? No need to share more details if the abuse was horrific, and this is not a challenge to your decision, I just wondered.

Every adoption is different and unique. There are problems and challenges with totally closed adoptions, semi-closed, and so-called open adoptions. It is a flawed system and people just have to do their best with which choice they make and how they cope. Again, I wish Daniel and Candice the best.

I think one of the challenges that they will face with the Kellers, should they ever begin talking again, will be around the adoption. Gothard doesn't like adoption, so Ma and Pa Keller are not likely to approve. I was adopted by fundie-lite parents and they took a lot of flack from bystanders over the adoption. I heard some very nasty adult whispers about me that would have horrified my parents had they known. I never told them what their "friends" were saying because I was afraid I'd upset them. Go figure.

ETA. clarity

[Visionoyahweh]

I just really hate this existential thing, and being pro-choice doesn't make it any less illogical. If any one of a trillion different things had happened differently, you wouldn't exist and you wouldn't know anything about it. If things had been different then, things would be different now.

Honestly, I think if more people understood this, they'd be less opposition to abortion. The misogynists/women controllers won't care, though.

[missbrooklyn]

In our research into the name Brighton, let us not forget Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, New York, where I spent many happy days in my youth. Said Brighton Beach is attached to Coney Island, home of the original Nathan's Hot Dogs and the Cyclone roller coaster. It is also given loving attention in Neil Simon's award-winning play, Brighton Beach Memoirs. Here's to you, young Brighton! I will forever say your name with love and nostalgia in my heart, and it will evoke the crash of the waves and the evening fireworks performed there in my mind!

[formergothardite]

Apparently I am having a failure to communicate! :lol: All I meant was that if she asks her SIL to please not post info about her family publically anymore and her SIL still continues to do that even after understanding how much it upsets Candice, then her SIL is being an asshole. I have no idea if her SIL knew when she posted stuff originally that it was public or that people could find it and talk about it. But now that she does know that, then she really needs to respect Candice's desire for privacy and not post public info.

I am extremely private so I understand why she is upset, but now that she knows people are going to snoop on her family, she can take the steps to make sure they can't find any info and ask her relatives to keep anything they post about her family private.

[pomology]

In our research into the name Brighton, let us not forget Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, New York, where I spent many happy days in my youth. Said Brighton Beach is attached to Coney Island, home of the original Nathan's Hot Dogs and the Cyclone roller coaster. It is also given loving attention in Neil Simon's award-winning play, Brighton Beach Memoirs. Here's to you, young Brighton! I will forever say your name with love and nostalgia in my heart, and it will evoke the crash of the waves and the evening fireworks performed there in my mind!

I'm pretty sure that nowadays Brighton Beach is the home of a large population of Russian immigrants and was at one point had a large contingent from the Russian Mafia.

[Sprocket]

If Ma Keller was nicer to her Daughter In Law, maybe Candice would give her MiL nice haircuts and highlights. (In response to whoever said that Mrs. Keller needed an update to her hairstyle.)

[WokChop]

I believe that probably was the real Candice, sorry I missed her. I don't think she flounced exactly -- she told us where to contact her. She met with a pretty hostile reception by a couple of people. Yeah, yeah, I know, trolls need to be slapped down, but why assume this was a troll and immediately call her an attention-whore? Anyway, Candice and Daniel are not part of the cult. She was flustered and annoyed that we were discussing her and Brighton, but I can understand that.

Generally, respect begets respect. I don't think that charging in here like a bull in a china shop and insulting/scolding people is really the best way to go if you are looking for honest discourse (which I don't believe she was). I also find her Jekyll and Hyde demeanor very off-putting--seemingly agreeable in one breath and the next breath she's making critical and obtuse remarks. Kinda kooky.

As for being an attention whore, the large amount of posts in rapid-fire succession kinda does it for me.

[missbrooklyn]

Da, it is true that Brighton Beach does host an enormous communtiy of Russian nationals, including the Russian Mafia. However, that does not diminish it in my memory, or Neil Simon's either.

[Angri-la]

Da, it is true that Brighton Beach does host an enormous communtiy of Russian nationals, including the Russian Mafia. However, that does not diminish it in my memory, or Neil Simon's either.

I so wanted to go to Brighton Beach for years, after seeing "Brighton Beach Memoirs". Still haven't made it, maybe when we take our mythical USA road trip.

Totally off topic, but Candice made herself very uninteresting.

[sissyintexas]

It's so stupid to thank someone for not having an abortion. I never thank my mom for not having an abortion. Because if she had had one I wouldn't exist to know or care about it. Would your cousin also thank your birth mom for having a birth control failure? Would your cousin thank her birth mom for having sex at the right time and with the right person? I just really hate this existential thing, and being pro-choice doesn't make it any less illogical. If any one of a trillion different things had happened differently, you wouldn't exist and you wouldn't know anything about it. If things had been different then, things would be different now.

And no, none of us begrudges Brighton's birth. What we begrudge is the long history and currently still common tactic of coercing women into having babies that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen without the pressure. Crisis Pregnancy Centers are still thriving, so it's not unreasonable to think that there was coercion in this case, especially with the way it was phrased and the fundie history of at least one of the adoptive parents. If you can't understand why this possibility of coercion is alarming, then you really need to take a step back and stop implying that we're all mad that some baby was born, because that is a straw man of the actual issue. So either you don't understand the complexity of the issue, or you do understand and you are making this comment in bad faith.

I was simply congratulating a new mom on her new son. I was also QUOTING my cousin. She would thank her because she DOES exist. Circumstances came together in the universe, a choice was made and she exists as do the two kids she has now. Brighton is born. My perception was that some of you were congratulating her and then - BOOM! - you're not happy for her and the baby because of a statement one of her relatives made. If my perception was incorrect, my apologies. You can't turn back time, we can only help women in the future.

And, as for your comment about my not understanding the complexity of the issue and bad faith...you do not know me or my past at all, so please do not make generalizations.

I do understand good manners. I'm pretty sure that none of you would be so mean-spirited if you met someone on the street who named a child something you did not like. Why would you do it here to a poster (Candice) - especially someone whose family is trying to escape the one thing most of you should applaud her for doing - a fundie lifestyle.

[Witsec7]

@sissyintexas, excuse me for not quoting your post both my hands and eyes are a bit too tired. I'm generally rude to fundies who come in and shit on the rugs. Candice had overwhelming support here and still does, for getting her husband out of a cult. But she was the one who came in swinging, because she didn't have the street smarts to understand by virtue of her marriage she was snarkable. Threatening lawyers just doesn't work. As to the adoption issues I will leave that to those who are better versed and experienced in that respect.

[sissyintexas]

Not a worry. I'm sure she came out swinging as most new moms would. That mom instinct is hard to control so I do not fault her. I can not imagine the complexities of their adoption given the family issues.

One thing (and this is not a criticism, just an observation) about this board vexes me. Why are so many posters unkind to the folks we should be trying to help escape this fundie path?

Folks are always posting about outrageous comments they made on so-and-so's blog knowing full well that they will never get posted. These comments just reinforce to these folks why they must be separated from the real world. Take a reasonable approach. A comment might make it through and help someone see the light of day.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I do understand good manners. I'm pretty sure that none of you would be so mean-spirited if you met someone on the street who named a child something you did not like.

[Angri-la]

Not a worry. I'm sure she came out swinging as most new moms would. That mom instinct is hard to control so I do not fault her. I can not imagine the complexities of their adoption given the family issues.

One thing (and this is not a criticism, just an observation) about this board vexes me. Why are so many posters unkind to the folks we should be trying to help escape this fundie path?

Folks are always posting about outrageous comments they made on so-and-so's blog knowing full well that they will never get posted. These comments just reinforce to these folks why they must be separated from the real world. Take a reasonable approach. A comment might make it through and help someone see the light of day.

I don't think her adoption was all that complicated. And her comments did trip this fierce adoptive mother, because I do know what I am speaking about, and I did not appreciate some of her comments. I was also not terribly rude to her.

I don't think you've been on FJ very long. Have you ever seen how people are when they come here to post about persecution!111! when we are discussing their public blogs with highly personal details and photos of their kids and lives? I can understand your point about extending kindness to fundies, and, again, you haven't read very much, because by and large, this is a group of extremely supportive and kind women, who often care more about people than their own families do. We had a fundie mother turn to us when her daughter was giving birth and her son in law was keeping her from speaking to her daughter. WE were very kind and supportive to her in her time of need. She repaid us by being rather unpleasant after it happened. Username: MamaAnt.

We've cared about a woman giving unassisted home birth, named Carri. The baby died. No one was leaving nasty notes on the woman's blog.

We've been taken advantage of several times by people misrepresenting themselves as SAHD who needed help. The kindness extended to these people was astounding, but it did not continue when the lies were exposed. These are just a few examples.

We cannot control, either as moderators or posters, what others will do on other sites. The internet is a big bad world. I do wish people would use a modicum of intelligence, but often people are doing things for entertainment, do note that this is a snark site, and though we do have a high level of intelligent debate and discussion, there is a tendency to try and one up on fundie blogs. I've seen other sites, and I think we are pretty mild. You want inappropriate and rude, go visit MWOP or bwop.

You comment about what people would and wouldn't do in real life does not hold water with me. Most people are far more gutsy and without boundaries in the relative anonymity of the internet.

bless your heart, dear.

[sissyintexas]

That's what I said. Most of these folks would not comment negatively on the baby's name if they encountered them in real life.

[Angri-la]

Yes, well, you said quite a lot, and I edited out some not so niceness, ergo, it did not make much sense, admittedly. Kindly do some more reading on the site before you make sweeping generalizations about FJ culture.

[sissyintexas]

None of my posts have been longer that 4 short (4-6 sentence) paragraphs - unless you are including the "quotes" from other posters. I never intended to be rude, but will admit to being perplexed by the vitriol towards me . However, I cry uncle. I thought this would be a fun community in which to participate but apparently I have inadvertently offended folks.

[CrazySister]

That's what I said. Most of these folks would not comment negatively on the baby's name if they encountered them in real life.

Uh, yeah, but that's the point: this isn't real life. Might I recommend the "Stuff I wanna say but can't" threads over in chatter? This is a snark board. Welcome.

[Deleted07]

I do understand good manners. I'm pretty sure that none of you would be so mean-spirited if you met someone on the street who named a child something you did not like. Why would you do it here to a poster (Candice) - especially someone whose family is trying to escape the one thing most of you should applaud her for doing - a fundie lifestyle.

:roll:

I really don't see anyone here truly being mean-spirited or NOT applauding her for leaving the lifestyle, seriously what thread are you reading? We got annoyed at her initial pissy antics, of calling people dumb-asses, gonna call her lawyer on us, etc. But she got over it, as we did. So, whats your point?

You don't like the snark here? Fine, might be best for you to leave. I freely admit the place isn't for everyone and heck even I have to take a break at times because of my moods, I get a bit too sensitive, and some topics I just won't go near for my own sanity, but you know what? Its not the forum, its me. Just think about that...

Now back to Candice, What most of us objected to was the anti-abortion and supposed coercion. Which she indeed corrected and most of us backed down on once we heard her thoughts and what happened. So again, no harm no foul. Whats your problem?

Some of the name comments were a bit snarky, but honestly, if you're going to name your child something a bit odd, and commonly related to a city or school etc. You had better get used of that being said, and all the other negative things that WILL be said about ANY name in school, and by other random family/friends/acquaintances.

Its like my friend Britney, for the first 15 years of her life she never had a problem with her name, then Britney Spears came along and ever since, whenever she says her name they usually always associate it with Britney Spears! Which she HATES. Also my friend George, people saying 'Georgy Porgy' and 'George of the Jungle' has become REALLY old to him!

Its just what people do, relate your name to something or someone. No big deal.

From what we've heard about who Candice is and all she has gone through, she's a strong woman who I doubt would give a crap about some randoms on the Interwebs saying something about the name she chose! Let alone anything else here, I think she understood we didn't mean her any harm and she just wanted to clear some things up, which she did. Although it might be rude to be talking about her like this, its just what the forum is about, as I said before celebrating people who escaped 'the cult'.

She DOES indeed have the opportunity to speak up when and where she wants, its not like this is a locked forum where she can't respond. If she has a problem with anything else, then I'm sure she can reply herself, accordingly.

For what its worth, as I have stated again and again and many others have (seriously how have you not seen these posts?) we do wish her and her husband and new child the very best outside of the fundiedom! And also encourage her to join in the forum if she wants, to discuss on other threads, and talk about all other aspects of patriarchy, feminism, religion, child-rearing and much more, etc. Not just relating to her!

[OkToBeTakei]

That's what I said. Most of these folks would not comment negatively on the baby's name if they encountered them in real life.

No but I would go to my friend's house and say 'Saw the cutest wee baby today, sit down while I tell you what they called it.'

That is what I do here.

Not really interested in those who think this is wrong.

I would agree that there can be some out and out nastiness that appears. But it does not constitute the norm in my opinion. Whilst snarky most posters are genuinely interested and intelligent to all. Those who just pop by to add the ubiquitous nasty comment obviously have their own agenda. I tend to ignore.

Like exoticfamiliarity said. Some topics I steer well clear of. Some I find a bit too close to the bone. Some I just plain know nothing about. But one thing. I have learned a fair bit about many things here. Including myself. That is not always a comfortable experience. Nor should it be.

[bananacat]

Oh, this is a rich. A complete newbie decided to hand slap us all for not being sufficiently fawning over an adoption and then calling out someone who threatened to call her lawyers about us. I'm calling this one - sissy is a troll.

[JesusFightClub]

Not a worry. I'm sure she came out swinging as most new moms would. That mom instinct is hard to control so I do not fault her. I can not imagine the complexities of their adoption given the family issues.

One thing (and this is not a criticism, just an observation) about this board vexes me. Why are so many posters unkind to the folks we should be trying to help escape this fundie path?

Folks are always posting about outrageous comments they made on so-and-so's blog knowing full well that they will never get posted. These comments just reinforce to these folks why they must be separated from the real world. Take a reasonable approach. A comment might make it through and help someone see the light of day.

Naw.

What you don't seem to be getting is that FJ is a snark board, not an "escaping fundieworld support group". IMO the FJists have been taken in one too many times from people who they've tried to help escape fundiedom. 99% of the time people who come here and tell of the terrible time they're having trying to escape fundiedom are trolls/attention whores/both. Can you blame us for being a bit wary and not rushing forward with open arms every time a wild fundie or fundie relative appears?

For example, AD. The sad tale of a girl trying to escape a fundie upbringing. FJ poured out huge amounts of time and resource finding. Trying to help, offering support and advice on everything from places to stay to college funding. Look how that one turned out. And MamaAnt, as Angri-la mentioned, wasn't precisely a success story.

I also am thoroughly confused by this idea that we're obliged to be nice to people who thoroughly detest us and would take huge chunks of our lives away from us, including our rights to hold down a job and even our rights to our own body. Leading people to the light by being jolly decent and sharing all your toys works in children's books, but in real life sometimes you gotta kick em inna fork to get their attention. This is the function FJ performs.