"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"

[Artemis]

I did try to teach myself to read classical Hebrew, but I had no reference point for it, so it was hard, and then life intervened and I had to stick with what I knew. I tried Arabic, but forund it really hard. I'd like to learn Hindi, it interests me, and Japanese.

I too wish I were one of those people who was really really fluent in several. Your ex is lucky to have that tri-lingualism, Freejoytoo. Wish I did :)

DFL that is awesome. It would be great to hear you saying it.

ETA I just sound boring. Very cut-glass, clear, precise and English.

[RR88]

My ex was Brazilian and could switch in and out of English, Portuguese and Spanish without even thinking about it. It was depressing. I can speak a handful of French, Spanish and German.

I believe that phenomenon is called "code-switching". Lots of people I know (including myself) do it.

[freejoytoo]

I wish I could!

[Anise]

You people are so cool. I wish I could be a polyglot.

I can only speak some Spanish and almost no Hebrew anymore. After I finish my degree, I can start earnestly learning Mandarin- I only know a few words and phrases. My fiance is Chinese and his parents speak little English, so I have to learn it (and also I really want our future kids to be bilingual).

[RR88]

Artemis, what do you mean by "classical" Hebrew? Biblical, Mishnaic, or…? Arabic intimidated me for years because it seemed as if the same letters appeared again and again. I later learned that the dots make all the difference, and recently created a chart that compares Hebrew letters to Arabic ones. My Syrian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Yemeni, and Palestinian friends help me with the Arabic, and I (the Jewish Zionist) help them with the Hebrew. It's great fun!

[Artemis]

Biblical Hebrew, so I could read the Bible. I also wanted to learn Sanskrit, but in the days pre-internet, it wasn't easy. (Ok, I know, I'm a total geek, I'm so sorry.) That chart you made sounds completely fascinating: I would love to see it. Have you ever tried making up a language? When I was in my early twenties and fixated on Lord Of The Rings, I was also fascinated by Tolkien's creation of Quenya and Sindarin, so I had a go at one myself.

Like I said, sad, sad geek . . .

[RR88]

A friend of mine (7asidic, actually) is a bit of a hobby linguist and created a language. I don't have the patience to come up with one myself. If you send me your email address in a PM, I'll be happy to send you PDFs of the chart.

Biblical Hebrew shares much with Modern Hebrew and if you learn the latter (which is easier to do, in my opinion, since many Biblical Hebrew teachers seem to be Christians with a less-than-great understanding of the language), you'll have little difficulty picking up the ancient stuff.

[LadyBlue]

So does anyone know a good, inexpensive language learning program I could do with my kids? French or Japanese by preference, but it would be good to learn any other language. I know immersion is best, but that's not an option for us, sadly.

My husband is from the south of England & has a barely noticeable accent and he STILL gets people who don't understand him but have no trouble understanding me. It's really odd. And very frustrating for him. Mostly because of how ridiculous it is people apparently can't understand him.

And even after 16 years, every so often he still comes up with some British slang I've never heard before.

[RR88]

So does anyone know a good, inexpensive language learning program I could do with my kids? French or Japanese by preference, but it would be good to learn any other language. I know immersion is best, but that's not an option for us, sadly.

The best programs are not inexpensive. If you can get your hands on some good beginner's textbooks, though, they might work well in tandem with interaction with native speakers. See if you can find people in your area who speak French or Japanese (or other languages) but aren't native English speakers. If they're seeking to improve their English, you can learn from each other!

[Wolfie]

So does anyone know a good, inexpensive language learning program I could do with my kids? French or Japanese by preference, but it would be good to learn any other language. I know immersion is best, but that's not an option for us, sadly.

Have you looked to see if there are any cultural centers in your area that offer language classes for children?

[Guest Anonymous]

There's no such thing as 'proper' English, tha knows. Geniebelle's spoutin' a load o' bollocks, daft chuffooks. Most o't adverts in 't UK ave folk wi regional accents, cos thi know that folk'll buy more stuff if they 'ear people talkin reight normal on't telly.

[Guest Anonymous]

As me Gromma'd say: "Get thi' coat and gerrof hoo-am, if that dun't like it round 'ere, luv"

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry, Isa fixin' supper...boomers & fried oakry! Then muh sink got all gaumed up.

Sola, need a Sears & Roebuck catalog?

Do you speak any language other than American English?

Have you ever tried to learn any other language?

Have you ever travelled to a country that is not the USA?

Have you ever visited, lived in or worked in a country where English is not the national language, and/or where you do not speak the national language?

No

Not yet

Yes...but I'm guessing Canada doesn't count. I'm unable to fly due to my Meniere's Disease. I makes me sick for days.

No and no

And this is so not the point. I have stated this before, If I moved to a different region/country/whatever, then it's my responsibility to learn to speak that language in an understandable way. BTW, understandable way does not equal ditching an accent.

[formergothardite]

So what about the teen I know who is hearing impaired and has a strong accent despite years of speech therapy? Should she be allowed to work?

[formergothardite]

Around here the classes to better one's English cost at least over 100 dollars. Should the people who can speak English with a heavy accent but don't have the time and money to go to these classes just not work?

[Mama Mia]

Jezebel _

Several pages back you said : "still learning the most basic, survival-level English (and I didn't even have that much Spanish)".

I know everyone is going back and forth with their southern and u.k. accents and idioms - but you don't usually hear people say " I don't have that much Spanish" - I'm from San Francisco Bay area too, and that is what I say too :D

It's funny the little differences in speech patterns that stand out.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Have you looked to see if there are any cultural centers in your area that offer language classes for children?

You might also try looking into any "Saturday schools" in your area, if there are any. While most of them (at least for Japanese) are aimed at Japanese expat kids who have to reenter Japanese schools later, there are some who have classes for heritage kids (Japanese-American kids who will always live in the US, but want to keep up the language) and sometimes those schools will also take any random kids who want to LEARN the language from scratch, too. It would be immersion.

The thing with Japanese is, it's perfectly logical and consistent by itself (it's the easiest language that makes the most sense in the world - but I might be biased!) it's quite different from English. This is why various defense programs and whatever label it as a "difficult" language, because it's a big jump from English. Unlike with many Romance languages you can't even say "how would I say 'should'" or whatever, obviously there's a way to say it but the divisions of words are different.

This means that while I can speak both Japanese and English fine enough, and even translate one to the other (because I understand the sentence in one language and then just think how do I say the same meaning in the other, no direct mapping!), it's hard to TEACH someone the very beginnings of it because... where to even begin to start?

Which is where a good textbook will do wonders. If you can find a community college class, or similar. Usually at first it's memorizing set patterns to say this or that because that's where a mapping can happen without prior knowledge. Later on you'll truly understand how the grammar is working but it takes a while.

I do tutor people (in fact it's what got me interested in homeschooling, and led me to fundies, and thus to here) but usually I require them to have two years of college foreign language experience FIRST (so I don't have to explain why verbs conjugate the way they do, they just do!!!), and then what I do is teach them how to homeschool themselves, starting from the third grade elementary school readers.

But for those beginning texts, probably any vendor will do, someone has gone to the trouble of working out a linear path to get started, and that's the important thing.

(FWIW I suspect Arabic would be similar experience for an English speaker - very different from English, so they probably start with set patterns first?)

[RR88]

And this is so not the point.

It actually is a big part of the "point", geniebelle. You've admitted to not even attempting to learn another tongue, so please show some understanding toward those who have made the effort.

[RR88]

(FWIW I suspect Arabic would be similar experience for an English speaker - very different from English, so they probably start with set patterns first?)

Arabic follows the same basic structural "rules" as other Semitic languages; this can be difficult for native English speakers. Once you know the way a Semitic language works, though, the other ones make a lot of sense.

[pomology]

Arabic follows the same basic structural "rules" as other Semitic languages; this can be difficult for native English speakers. Once you know the way a Semitic language works, though, the other ones make a lot of sense.

True. I thought beginning Arabic (i took four semester's worth) was the easiest thing ever, because I already knew Hebrew. On the other hand, I barely remember any Arabic, so... But the point is, I found the grammar structures easy to understand because they were so similar to Hebrew and would have very little trouble relearning in it if I just had the time and energy to put in the effort.

[2xx1xy1JD]

True. I thought beginning Arabic (i took four semester's worth) was the easiest thing ever, because I already knew Hebrew. On the other hand, I barely remember any Arabic, so... But the point is, I found the grammar structures easy to understand because they were so similar to Hebrew and would have very little trouble relearning in it if I just had the time and energy to put in the effort.

With Hebrew (and I suppose other Semitic languages), you can't really learn word-for-word translation. Instead, you need to learn phrases. There's no word for "is", for example.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Arabic follows the same basic structural "rules" as other Semitic languages; this can be difficult for native English speakers. Once you know the way a Semitic language works, though, the other ones make a lot of sense.

Oh, surely. Similarly it's really easy for Japanese speakers to learn Korean, and vice versa, because similar grammatically common things. But Korean too is rated as a hard language for an English speaker to learn.

I only know a little bit of Korean (I'd like to learn more) but when I do look at it, I always use Japanese resources because between THOSE two languages you can in fact say "this grammar marker in Japanese is the same as this one in Korean, more or less" and instantly understand stuff that would take pages to describe in English.

Similarly when I looked at a little bit of Italian before going there on a vacation, I used English resources. Going from Japanese would be... far, and anyway knowing that they always talk about how it's "well, you know how in English you XXX? Now you YYY" similarly :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Around here the classes to better one's English cost at least over 100 dollars. Should the people who can speak English with a heavy accent but don't have the time and money to go to these classes just not work?

Umm...ever heard of learning from others to speak the language? But to be perfectly honest, this isn't my problem, and well, maybe if they don't have the time or money to learn the language of the countrythey want to live in, then maybe they should just stay put. That is unless they are seeking political asylum.

So what about the teen I know who is hearing impaired and has a strong accent despite years of speech therapy? Should she be allowed to work?

IME, people with hearing/speech impediments are easier to understand.

At this point we are beating a dead horse. Unlike the sexist religion threads (which I later admitted to & said it was something that was bothering me for a while), there is no confusion here. I will not change my mind on this one. So, add racist to whatever list of names you want to call me. I don't care.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

With Hebrew (and I suppose other Semitic languages), you can't really learn word-for-word translation. Instead, you need to learn phrases. There's no word for "is", for example.

Yeah, that's how Japanese for English speakers is, in the beginning books. You have to start with set piece phrases. Obviously they're all dissectable and analyzable and make perfect internal sense with full freedom to swap out parts, like any other language, but a beginning student isn't anywhere close to understanding it, so it's set phrases to start with (same is true for beginning English lessons aimed at Japanese speakers). Word for word just doesn't even remotely work.

People do try though, leading to some epically bad tattoos...

[RR88]

With Hebrew (and I suppose other Semitic languages), you can't really learn word-for-word translation. Instead, you need to learn phrases. There's no word for "is", for example.

That isn't always true. The words for "he", "she", "this" (feminine) and "this" (masculine) are sometimes used as "is". And you can learn word-for-word translations, but only up to a point. I see what you're saying, though. Semitic languages are very different from what many Americans learn.