"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"

[JesusFightClub]

Yeah, as a teacher at international schools this gave me a good laugh.

Immersion is the best way to learn a language, as any expert or really anyone with a modicum of common sense will tell you. I have to go out on the streets and practise my Chinese - that's how I'm learning to make myself understood and to understand others. That's what the sandwich guy, or whoever it was in the original example was doing - if indeed he was from a part of India where English wasn't widely spoken and was actually learning it as a second language. Working with trained language teachers in a class is really different to haggling with a toothless flower-seller on the street.

I can't even imagine how small and provincial geniebelle's world must be. Fuckin' global education - how does it work?

I love you for the final reference there.

[Bella99]

Yeah, yeah...I hear stories like this all the time. But let me ask you this. Do you think stories like that are limited to Vietnam or other countries? What about American women who are escaping abusive relationships and trying to protect themselves and their kids. Aren't they just as deserving of a job as the Vietnamese woman? Or would would you just send her to some shelter and say "good luck, honey"? I'm thinking the latter, which would make both you and I both less of an American and human being.

She was the first person to approach me for the job who happened to have the rather extraordinary tailoring skills that a bridal shop demands. She was a legal immigrant pursuing her citizenship at the time. According to you, I guess I should have saved the job for the "right" kind of American, that is called discrimination. It is illegal, sadly the kind of bigotry you are shrilly blasting is not.

Edited once to fix the quotes.

[Peas n carrots]

I love you for the final reference there.

Looks like some places in America are lagging far behind. These days, I'm kind of wishing Abraham Lincoln would have allowed the South to secede.

I will say this: I work and many of my clients are southern, and they are far more intelligent, warm, and understanding than idiots like genie belle. She is not representative of everyone down there thankfully.

[formergothardite]

I am in the south, no we are not all like that.

[RR88]

True, but if I planned to move to another country, I will. I will say that it is probably a good idea to learn more than one language. But, since English is the majority language, I shouldn't have to speak another language to conduct day to day business in my own country.

...It's not just your "own country". The United States is home to thousands of different ethnic, religious, linguistic, political, and other communities. It happens to be the "own country" of people who aren't monolingual English speakers. It isn't only the "own country" of those like you, who haven't once attempted to learn another language. Do you know how much "out-and-about" practice it takes to become functional in a language, much less accent-less?

Do you plan on learning a language perfectly and achieving native fluency before you travel to that language's homeland? If not, you're pretty inconsistent.

[Sola]

True, but if I planned to move to another country, I will. I will say that it is probably a good idea to learn more than one language. But, since English is the majority language, I shouldn't have to speak another language to conduct day to day business in my own country.

Genie, which Native American languages do you speak fluently?

[Soldevi]

Genie, which Native American languages do you speak fluently?

Touché!

[holierthanyou]

Let's all just enjoy the peace and tranquility we have for another 90 minutes or so before GB returns home from church and logs back in eagerly to this forum which she does not consider herself a part of...

Sorry, I meant to start that sentence with UMMM.......

Edited to change 'e' into 'the'. Stupid iPad. Stupid fat fingers.

[RR88]

Let's all just enjoy e peace and tranquility we have for another 90 minutes or so before GB returns home from church and logs back in eagerly to this forum which she does not consider herself a part of...

Sorry, I meant to start that sentence with UMMM.......

:D

[xReems]

Th more defensive Geniebelle becomes, the stupider she sounds to us. Keep on replying because all we're doing is laughing at your stupid remarks.

I need a glass of wine to continue to read this thread now.

[Wolfie]

Why is challenging views turning your back on someone? My mum is in her sixties and she has some views that I do not agree with, particularly ones on asylum seekers. These views are formed partly as a result of her generation and partly from reading tabloid newspapers. I challenge her on them all the time. I have not and never would turn my back on her, she is my mother after all, but yes I challenge her views as they are born from ignorance.

This- my Grandfather would not let his children date people of other races. They still loved him even though they disagreed with him. They still loved him. He did accept his grandchildrens' spouses when they did marry, and I think that a lot of that was because nobody turned their back on him. (three of the 5 are not "white")

It is kind of an odd predjudice because he had some Native American in his background, and we suspect that there probably was some Hispanic too. (there are parts we know nothing about)

[fakepigtails73]

Switzerland has four national languages - French, Italian, German and Romansh. The German is a Schwyzerdeutsch variety. All are acceptable. There are also Arpitan and Lombard dialects. One of the cantons, Graubunden, is officially trilingual. Most Swiss are at least bilingual.

My Kenyan friend speaks Kisii, (tribal language) Swahili, ( country language) French (colonial, now second language) and English (global language.)

Geniebelle, are you ever going to answer the questions about your own language learning/understanding?

Is it true that the Swiss version of German is supremely hard to learn ??

I read that Kim Jong-Il's successor, his son whose name escapes me at the moment, is one of the only world leader able to fluently speak in Swiss-German...He went to boarding school under an assumed name (his cover was that he was the son of a South Korean diplomat) in his teens in Switzerland, amongst other privileges not available to 99,9% of fellow North Koreans.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Is it true that the Swiss version of German is supremely hard to learn ??

I read that Kim Jong-Il's successor, his son whose name escapes me at the moment, is one of the only world leader able to fluently speak in Swiss-German...He went to boarding school under an assumed name (his cover was that he was the son of a South Korean diplomat) in his teens in Switzerland, amongst other privileges not available to 99,9% of fellow North Koreans.

Kim Jong-Un, yeah. People are watching with interest, to see how being educated outside "the republic" will have influenced him.

I do have to wonder about countries with more than one official language, though. If the law can be officially conducted in more than one language, or the law can be WRITTEN in more than one language, how do they handle it if say the French version of the law can be interpreted slightly different than English version? Obviously you'd try to not have that happen (which is an interesting thing all by itself!) but... for each law, is there some note as to which "original text" is the absolute official version? Say, if a law was originally sponsored in French, the French one is the absolute bottom line?

I'm just curious as both countries I have familiarity with only have one language for the law (English in the US, despite the lack of an official language, and Japanese in Japan).

Maybe if the cases fighting the law come up in different district courts using different languages, when it gets to the top is the final showdown where the possible differences in interpretation get ruled on?

[fakepigtails73]

I'm in Canada and people interpret the law the same way, in English or in French.

My boyfriend works as an English-to French translator, and before he started working at the firm he's at he used to translate documents for the federal govt. Let me tell you, it was translated to the letter.

When a law get the Royal imprimatur in Ottawa both versions English and French come out at the same time.

[dairyfreelife]

Genie, which Native American languages do you speak fluently?

Wonder the same. The US doesn't have an official language so Geniebelle fails. People can speak any language they want. They don't have to learn English, but they usually do because it's to their benefit to do so.

I've been trying to learn Spanish because it's the second most common language spoken in the US, but because hardly anyone I know speaks it, it's very hard to learn it and immerse myself in it. All my Spanish teachers from high school and college have been from a Spanish-speaking country. One didn't have an accent because she was here at the age of five and was able to immerse herself in English and speak it well. The others were late teens/20s and even 30s and they all have accents, even after years of speaking English and living in an area where English is spoken all the time. Geniebelle shows her lack of awareness to think that they can just get rid of their accents so easily. I know someone who went over to Ukraine and was told that there are some words that people who speak Ukrainian/Russian can't say in English and vice versa because of how their palate formed in their speech as children.

I'm sorry, but I don't and never will understand forcing people to speak English in a certain way, especially with adults. I had a math professor from Nigeria, who learned English in England and he was very hard to understand sometimes and I often had to think for a moment to figure out what he was saying. I went shopping yesterday and the clerk who rang up my purchase was from Germany and had a very strong accent that wasn't easy to understand either. It just never once occurred to me to think those people need to speak "proper" English.

[JesusFightClub]

Kim Jong-Un, yeah. People are watching with interest, to see how being educated outside "the republic" will have influenced him.

I do have to wonder about countries with more than one official language, though. If the law can be officially conducted in more than one language, or the law can be WRITTEN in more than one language, how do they handle it if say the French version of the law can be interpreted slightly different than English version? Obviously you'd try to not have that happen (which is an interesting thing all by itself!) but... for each law, is there some note as to which "original text" is the absolute official version? Say, if a law was originally sponsored in French, the French one is the absolute bottom line?

I'm just curious as both countries I have familiarity with only have one language for the law (English in the US, despite the lack of an official language, and Japanese in Japan).

Maybe if the cases fighting the law come up in different district courts using different languages, when it gets to the top is the final showdown where the possible differences in interpretation get ruled on?

In Scotland, we have Gaelic, Scots and English as official languages. So in Parliament we have some Ministers or members sometimes making a speech in Gaelic . If they warn the Official Report (like Hansard, I don't know what you would call it? Recorders of Parliamentary proceedings) they will have a transcriber and interpreter to hand. If they don't warn them and just launch into Gaelic, a note flies back to the civil servants sitting in the officials' section."Your Minister spoke in Gaelic. We will require a translation by close of play today." So the officials could ask the Minister what he meant in English and he should have his speech notes with the Gaelic.

For laws, they are written in English and the rules are strict. It would have to be translated into Gaelic from English after the fact, not vice versa. There can normally only be terms like names for things etc. For example Bord na Gaidhlig (Gaelic Board) or Comhairle nan Eilean Siar (Western Isles Council).

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Is it true that the Swiss version of German is supremely hard to learn ??

I read that Kim Jong-Il's successor, his son whose name escapes me at the moment, is one of the only world leader able to fluently speak in Swiss-German...He went to boarding school under an assumed name (his cover was that he was the son of a South Korean diplomat) in his teens in Switzerland, amongst other privileges not available to 99,9% of fellow North Koreans.

Swiss German is incredibly hard. It doesn't even sound like German most of the time, I hardly understand a word, but I love the sound of it.

[Anise]

Swiss German is incredibly hard. It doesn't even sound like German most of the time, I hardly understand a word, but I love the sound of it.

Just add "eli" to the end of every word, lol.

Nah, there is a huge difference between high German and Swiss German. Many people count them as separate languages, and as far as I know, students in the Swiss-German speaking area of Switzerland (like Zurich area) have to learn high German too.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

I have a friend from Zürich and she speaks perfect high German, I need to ask her what language they used in school.

[Anise]

I have a friend from Zürich and she speaks perfect high German, I need to ask her what language they used in school.

Yeah, I have a lot of cousins in Zurich, and they all can speak high German. I assume that they don't take all their classes in high German, because my grossvati had to take German (and French) in school as foreign languages, and I doubt that's changed (but maybe it varies, because that was in Appenzell, lol).

[Artemis]

And this is so not the point. I have stated this before, If I moved to a different region/country/whatever, then it's my responsibility to learn to speak that language in an understandable way. BTW, understandable way does not equal ditching an accent.

Sorry about late reply - have been doing Mothering Sunday things with daughters, mother and MIL.

Yes, Geniebelle, this is so the point. The point is that you personally have never experienced what the immigrants in your country are experiencing:

You have never gone through the process of second/foreign language acquisition, or understood from the inside what that process is like, or the pitfalls, joys, frustrations and thrills of learning to change your world view to accommodate the linguistic idiosyncracies of a foreign language.

You have never been in a foreign country and tried to make yourself understood as an outsider in that country or felt the panic that one feels when all the language around you is completely incomprehensible, and you have to learn to make yourself understood.

So you have no empirically derived understanding of how the people of whom you speak so disparagingly feel, or the problems they face, and worse, you have apparently no desire or ability to try to understand it from the outside either.

It actually doesn't matter to me that you don't care if people call you racist, because to me, you are so much more than racist. You apparently judge people who can't speak English to your satisfaction without understanding, without knowledge, and without any desire to put yourself in someone else's place and actually try to perceive what life is like for them.

That isn't just racist, it's a direct contravention of God's most simple commandment - love one another as I have loved you. (if you are a Christian.) And for the non Christians among us it demonstrates a complete lack of the empathy that makes us human.

I am certain that if you were airlifted out of your comfortable little enclave and dropped into - oh let's say France, to make it easy, as French is at least in the same family of languages, and you actually experienced the terror and humiliation that some of those people you appear to despise experience on a daily basis, you would realise how inhumane your attitude is.

Why not assume that has happened to you, and try for a little more compassion?

[Artemis]

Yeah, I have a lot of cousins in Zurich, and they all can speak high German. I assume that they don't take all their classes in high German, because my grossvati had to take German (and French) in school as foreign languages, and I doubt that's changed (but maybe it varies, because that was in Appenzell, lol).

High German - oh Lord, don't even go there. I had a child in my class whose mother was German. She worked as a lunchtime supervisor, and I used to go and chat to her on the playground. She was from Hildesheim, in the north, and spoke High German. She used to moan like crazy about my horrible Bavarian (South German, low German) accent, and try to teach me better ways. (I picked up my spoken German in Bavaria, you see.)

According to her, Bavarians did not speak proper German!

[Renting with Raggles]

So you have no empirically derived understanding of how the people of whom you speak so disparagingly feel, or the problems they face, and worse, you have apparently no desire or ability to try to understand it from the outside either.

This sums up the fundie mindset, doesn't it? Proud ignorance wedded to lack of empathy. Geniebelle has no idea how languages work and no experience in actuallly aquiring a second language, but she's going to trust her intuition and something some guy told her once and that trumps all the so-called "experts" with your fancy book-learnin'.

It's cute when she's talking about learning a second language, not so much when she's burning Cabbage Patch Dolls to cure her child of cancer instead of taking it to the doctor.

[Guest Anonymous]

Here's what I posted on the Confederate Flag threat, and thought it appropriate to post it here:

Genie, I have the impression here that you are trying desperately to convince us that you are not racist, sexist or whatever. Thing is you are doing a very poor job of it.

I get the feeling that you don't see anything wrong with what you think, feel or say, because everyone around thinks, feels and says the same as you. The problem that you have is that you have come onto a multinational board full of people who see the ignorance in the things that you say, think and feel and now they are calling you out on it. I understand that you might not see the harm in how you are, obviously you wont if it has been that way your entire life, but here, right here now, you are being exposed to people from all over the world who can see that your attitude, that you think is normal, that might even be normal in your community, is offensive to everyone else.

All snark aside, you have come into the big wide world here, and your views have been challenged. I understand you don't like that, I understand that it may make you feel threatened and it probably makes you feel that you have to defend yourself. But instead of that, I ask you to take a close look at those views, that attitude, that thinking and try and look at from the point of view of people who have not been surrounded by it their whole lives. That is how alien it is to us. No matter how you explain it we will never accept it. So I ask you to really critically think about it.

We are seeing the hidden (and not so hidden) sexism in your views, we are seeing the hidden (and again not so hidden) racism in your views. Now these views might be normal for you and those around you, but they aren't for the rest of the world. Why do you think that is?

Give it some thought.

Point taken, and maybe to some extent you're right. I will tone it down, and try to stay away from threads like this where I know my expressing my point of view leads to nothing but pointless arguing and name calling. I know, I know I have said that before, and you have no reason believe me. But I will try.

[RR88]

Point taken, and maybe to some extent you're right. I will tone it down, and try to stay away from threads like this where I know my expressing my point of view leads to nothing but pointless arguing and name calling. I know, I know I have said that before, and you have no reason believe me. But I will try.

Would you care to answer the questions I posed a few hours ago, geniebelle? They should be visible within the last few pages of this thread.