Duggar Dad Comes Out Against Transgender Girl Scout

[takers401]

I had some sympathy with takers until she said the emboldened part. If you don't "care" to learn, then you probably need to be ripped into before you will learn.

I learn all sorts of stuff every time I read FJ. There is loads I don't know and haven't experienced yet - Google and lurking are my friends in these situations.

I don't feel I've been ripped into or dealt harshly from posters. I feel that people have been nice but direct in their responses. This isn't a "please be nice to me" hand slap at all. This is me saying that the discussion has been interesting, I appreciate the information I've been given, I'm thinking about what people are saying, and I hope that no one feels that I should never come back to FJ. Again the previous google comment was made when I though this discussion was only about the logistics of cabins/bathrooms at GS camp. Since it's moved on from that I have looked at a few websites. Probably nowhere near what everyone would prefer, though.

[QAF_Rocks]

I would have a problem with a boy and a girl sleeping in the same area. Not in "oh my gosh they're going to have sex" but in boys and girls are different and I think that at that age we'd have awesome fun playdates together but no sleepovers. The exception would be if family were over and all the kids slept on the basement floor, for example.

I guess I'm struggling to understand the issue. Why can't a group of children sleep in the same area? If you're not afraid that they're going to have sex, then what is the problem?

[valsa]

I guess I'm struggling to understand the issue. Why can't a group of children sleep in the same area? If you're not afraid that they're going to have sex, then what is the problem?

I'd like an answer to this too. And just as an FYI, "they're different" is not an answer (unless you also wouldn't let girls who aren't the same race, religion, class, height, weight, IQ, etc as your kid stay the night- everyone is different)

[Jezebel]

At the beginning I said they should shut up. I now join others who said: no, they should really show who they are. Come on Duggars, keep it coming. Show us what's REALLY behind your frozen Yellow Pill smiles.

Yes, this.

Pick on a 7-year-old transgender children, Duggars. Make snide remarks about "short buses"--using disability as an insult--and use it to insult government workers and kids who attend public schools. Show the world how you really feel about abortion and contraception in all cases by supporting that frothy whackadoodle Santorum. Keep raising teenagers into young adulthood without ever sending one to a real college. Let your bevy of unmarried, SAHDs grow, and quit pretending they aren't the real mommies in your household. Get pregnant again, as often as you still can, no matter what happens.

Keep going, Duggars. There have been a lot of fence-sitters out there who wouldn't want your life, but figure you're okay. I saw a lot of them drop off in disgust after Josie was born and her suffering turned into a public spectacle, and a lot more turned against you over Jubilee. Keep going, Duggars. Because every time you reveal your true colors--that you're not just a nice family with a lot of happy, well-behaved kids, who wouldn't dream of pushing your lifestyle on anyone else--more people decide to get off the fence (and not on your side).

[FloraDoraDolly]

Anyone who thinks we aren’t being “nice enough†to the transphobia and willful ignorance shown on this thread is being hypocritical. No one would expect me to be “nice†to Jim Bob if he showed up here to talk about it. And we tear fundies a new one for being ignorant and prejudiced every day. Bigotry is bigotry.

So if I (as a gay kid) was in your daughter’s cabin, you’d want a meeting with my mum to “discuss†it? Or do you think the sign-up process for girl scouts should involve a short presentation about the genitals of each of your daughters’ new friends? You are not entitled to that information. It is part of cis privilege to think you are.

A transgender person is not a danger to a cisgender person. It’s the other way round. Each of those girls whose picture is posted is now part of a group that has a murder rate of 1 in 12 in America. 1 IN 12. It’s heartbreakening, and it’s because of prejudice and ignorance. If you don’t think that’s enough reason to educate yourself on the subject, I don’t know how to help you.

If only there were little rooms…with doors…where people don’t see what’s in your pants, and you could sit down on the toilet…gosh, the word’s on the tip of my tongue.

If it’s a safety issue with a small child, then they will use whatever bathroom is safest, like any other kid (I don’t know many parents who send a small boy into the men’s room by himself). You’re seem to be trying to find a hole in the argument that transgender people have a right to be treated as their identified gender? Why?

Edited for riffles and clarification. And fuck you.

There aren't always doors on the toilet stalls in men's rooms, especially in older buildings that haven't been renovated. (This includes some of the schools where I've worked.) That's what I was thinking of when I wrote my post. Since we were discussing scouting camps, those are the kinds of places that would have older, more primitive facilities. I am not going to apologize for being concerned for a child's physical safety. And if that "fuck you" was directed at me, I am going to respond with Jesus loves you and have a nice day. :D

[Constance Vigilance]

There aren't always doors on the toilet stalls in men's rooms, especially in older buildings that haven't been renovated. (This includes some of the schools where I've worked.) That's what I was thinking of when I wrote my post. Since we were discussing scouting camps, those are the kinds of places that would have older, more primitive facilities. I am not going to apologize for being concerned for a child's physical safety. And if that "fuck you" was directed at me, I am going to respond with Jesus loves you and have a nice day. :D

"Edited for fuck you" is from this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2680&p=125141#p125141) and not at you.

And as I said, in the case of a child's physical safety, a transgender child would just use the safest bathroom. Like any other child.

[brigid]

I guess I'm struggling to understand the issue. Why can't a group of children sleep in the same area? If you're not afraid that they're going to have sex, then what is the problem?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that she is stuck i social mode that continuously enforces gender apartheid. I will further say that she is completely unaware that there could even be such a thing as gender apartheid and now that she's heard the words, I assume that she will insist that there's nothing wrong with it.

I could be wrong.

[Terrie]

The things is that most of the "concerns" raised here could just as easily be raised about, say, a child with a colostomy. For those who can't be bothered to google, that's when the intestines empty into a specially made bag worn under the clothes. A child in a group with another child who has a colostomy may be embarrassed or have questions. It could create a certain awkwardness with undressing in front of others. There could potentially be concerns from chaperons about bathroom use.

The difference is that it's more obvious to most people that the other child's situation is nobody's business unless and until that child and the family choose to make it someone else's business. The same example could be extended to things like diabetes, or other variations on humanity. It's natural to feel uncomfortable when it comes to issues we're not familiar with, but that NEVER gives us the right to invade another person's privacy.

[valsa]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that she is stuck i social mode that continuously enforces gender apartheid.

I think you're on to something there. Personally, I have my own sneaking suspicion that she probably doesn't consider trans people to be "real" members of the gender they identify with.

[bionicmlle]

I would have a problem with a boy and a girl sleeping in the same area. Not in "oh my gosh they're going to have sex" but in boys and girls are different and I think that at that age we'd have awesome fun playdates together but no sleepovers. The exception would be if family were over and all the kids slept on the basement floor, for example.

Earlier someone responded a to a comment of mine about not knowing which bathroom to take her into. After thinking about the replies I can see why taking her into the girl's bathroom without first questioning would be automatic for most people. But since I've never dealt with a transgender person (that I know of) I think my question was still a legitimate one. Now I know.

I've hesitated to weigh in on this one but SERIOUSLY you need to educate yourself. We're not talking about a "boy and girl sleeping in the same area." She's a GIRL. Wanting to join the GIRL SCOUTS.

While the term "identifies as xxx" is a common phrase, it is very misleading. Transgender folks don't just "identify" as a gender -- they ARE that gender, to the core of the their being. I don't say I "Identify as a woman" -- I know I AM a woman - thank the heavens that I don't have the heartache of having my genitals not match....

[valsa]

While the term "identifies as xxx" is a common phrase, it is very misleading. Transgender folks don't just "identify" as a gender -- they ARE that gender, to the core of the their being. I don't say I "Identify as a woman" -- I know I AM a woman - thank the heavens that I don't have the heartache of having my genitals not match....

While I get what you're saying and agree 100% with the bolded part, using the phrase "identifies with/as xxx" is a practical matter for me, not something to make a distinction or try to say they're aren't completely that gender.

If we're discussing the issue in passing, I would say "trans woman/man", not "person who identifies as a woman/man", but it's difficult not to use the phrase when discussing the issue in-depth, at least for me.

[Rachel333]

To get into more complicated trans stuff, not everyone does identify strongly as male or female. There are lots of people who identify as both or neither or a little bit more one than the other.

[takers401]

I guess I'm struggling to understand the issue. Why can't a group of children sleep in the same area? If you're not afraid that they're going to have sex, then what is the problem?

I think that there comes a point where opposite sexes sleeping in the same room is inappropriate. For me that time comes earlier than others it looks like.

[valsa]

I think that there comes a point where opposite sexes sleeping in the same room is inappropriate.

Why?

I can understand thinking it's inappropriate when they get to the age where you're worried about something sexual going on but you've already said you aren't worried about that.

So in this case (7 year olds), why is it inappropriate?

[CanadianHippie]

I think that there comes a point where opposite sexes sleeping in the same room is inappropriate. For me that time comes earlier than others it looks like.

But why? This doesn't answer the question of what the problem actually is.

[takers401]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that she is stuck i social mode that continuously enforces gender apartheid. I will further say that she is completely unaware that there could even be such a thing as gender apartheid and now that she's heard the words, I assume that she will insist that there's nothing wrong with it.

I could be wrong.

I have not heard of that phrase before. Going off of Wikipedia's definition: "The term gender apartheid, like sex apartheid, is a term used to describe economic and social sexual discrimination against women, including strict sex segregation,[1] as well as an "absence of justice for women in much of the non-Western world."[2] It is used especially to describe treatment of women in Muslim societies. However, fundamentalist strains of Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism also have been described as practicing "gender apartheid.""I would agree that there is such a thing in the world and that it is wrong. As an example, there was an earlier thread regarding women in Saudi Arabia who were protesting the ban against driving by driving and the atrocities that were happening the them. I think it's stupid to not allow women to drive. As a Christian example, I think the constant focus of a woman being pure/wholesome/without scandal while nary a thought to the men is wrong.

[takers401]

Why?

I can understand thinking it's inappropriate when they get to the age where you're worried about something sexual going on but you've already said you aren't worried about that.

So in this case (7 year olds), why is it inappropriate?

Because I want a line drawn before it gets to be too slippery of a slope. Two sixteen year olds shouldn't be sleeping together because I'd worry about them having sex. Two twelve year olds shouldn't be sleeping together because I'd worry about them exploring. Two four year olds are okay. So at some point in time between four and twelve separation needs to occur. Once a child is school age it seems to be an appropriate time to say no more sleep overs. I recognize that the individual child/children need to be taken into consideration, so I'm speaking more generally.

[valsa]

Two twelve year olds shouldn't be sleeping together because I'd worry about them exploring.

At 12 years old, in my circle of friends, two (non-lesbian) girls would be more likely to experiment with each other than with a boy. How are you going to deal with that?

[Witsec7]

At 12 years old, in my circle of friends, two (non-lesbian) girls would be more likely to experiment with each other than with a boy

This

[Mama Mia]

I think if I was the parent of the child my biggest concern would be if the other girls somehow found out that physically this child was male and teased/bullied/harassed her. In that case it might be better if the other girls (and their parents ) knew ahead of time, so they could have a discussion about being polite, what this means etc.. On the other hand that might make it even worse.

Personally, I've ALWAYS hated changing in front of other people and would find places for privacy. Even as an adult the thing I hate about gyms the most is the communal changing and I always try to find someway to get some privacy.

[ElphabaGalinda]

At 12 years old, in my circle of friends, two (non-lesbian) girls would be more likely to experiment with each other than with a boy. How are you going to deal with that?

Same with my circle of friends. So takers, would you not let your 12 year old daughter have a sleepover with her 12 year old lesbian friend? But then she can have a sleepover with a boy right? And what if your 12 year old daughter was a lesbian? Then I guess you can forbid her from having sleepovers with girls. Also if kids are gonna explore, they're gonna explore and it won't necessarily be at a sleepover. The only thing you can do is to teach your child to respect themselves and make safe and healthy choices.

[brigid]

Because I want a line drawn before it gets to be too slippery of a slope. Two sixteen year olds shouldn't be sleeping together because I'd worry about them having sex. Two twelve year olds shouldn't be sleeping together because I'd worry about them exploring. Two four year olds are okay. So at some point in time between four and twelve separation needs to occur. Once a child is school age it seems to be an appropriate time to say no more sleep overs. I recognize that the individual child/children need to be taken into consideration, so I'm speaking more generally.

You think about sex way too much. This attitude feeds directly into the practice of gender apartheid. Think about it for a minute. You are advocating for segregating children based on their genitalia - how is this different from segregating the black children from the white? It's not. It also has the effect of forcing children to think of themselves sexually at a very early age. You're creating an environment in which boys and girls think of each other only in terms of sexual availability. Is that the world you really want to live in?

I have issues with gender segregated groups in general, because I think separate but equal is wrong. In this particular instance, I'm with the girl scouts because at least they've made the step toward understanding that sex and gender are not the same thing and their attitude of inclusion is consistent with their feminist sensibilities.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I think if I was the parent of the child my biggest concern would be if the other girls somehow found out that physically this child was male and teased/bullied/harassed her. In that case it might be better if the other girls (and their parents ) knew ahead of time, so they could have a discussion about being polite, what this means etc.. On the other hand that might make it even worse.

A few years ago, I saw a 20/20 documentary about transgender kids. One of the moms said she makes sure that her child's playmates and their parents know ahead of time and that they're OK with it. She compared it to putting out fires before they get started.

In a similar vein, one of the children in my extended family made friends with a new girl at school who'd had a rough past (abused by her stepfather, a stint in foster care). This little girl occasionally spoke about it and acted out because of it. She was seeing a counselor, but still had some issues. Her father disclosed this information to my relatives the first time his daughter came over to play. He didn't want there to be any problems or misunderstandings if the child did act out. But nothing like that ever happened.

[CanadianHippie]

I think if I was the parent of the child my biggest concern would be if the other girls somehow found out that physically this child was male and teased/bullied/harassed her. In that case it might be better if the other girls (and their parents ) knew ahead of time, so they could have a discussion about being polite, what this means etc.. On the other hand that might make it even worse.

Personally, I've ALWAYS hated changing in front of other people and would find places for privacy. Even as an adult the thing I hate about gyms the most is the communal changing and I always try to find someway to get some privacy.

One interesting fact I discovered while writing a psych paper last summer was that transgender children are more likely to be accepted by other children who are their identified gender. So males who identify as girls might have some trouble with boys, but have no more issues with girls that other girls have (same goes for females who identify as boys and other boys). Now obviously nothing is perfect, and the parents of the other children often play a role in acceptance, but over all there isn't too much to be worried about during pre-adolescent childhood. Teens are a whole other ball park as I'm sure you are aware.

[formergothardite]

You think about sex way too much. This attitude feeds directly into the practice of gender apartheid. Think about it for a minute. You are advocating for segregating children based on their genitalia - how is this different from segregating the black children from the white? It's not. It also has the effect of forcing children to think of themselves sexually at a very early age. You're creating an environment in which boys and girls think of each other only in terms of sexual availability. Is that the world you really want to live in?

I have issues with gender segregated groups in general, because I think separate but equal is wrong. In this particular instance, I'm with the girl scouts because at least they've made the step toward understanding that sex and gender are not the same thing and their attitude of inclusion is consistent with their feminist sensibilities.

Exactly. My daughter is going to turn seven soon and her friends that are boys are just that, friends that are boys. And she has had one who slept over and sex managed to never come up, shocking, I know. :roll: If, in a couple of months I suddenly didn't allow her to treat her close friend who is a boy like she always has, then I would be the one sexualizing them, which is creepy.