Harry & Meghan 17: St Meghan's Hagiography

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I don't much care for meghan but that came later after they left and there was all the questionable choices.  Whatever exactly happened around her depression it seems that her whole support network basically failed her whether it was small or large. Clearly it wasn't enough. Which is a damn shame. 

The crown made an episode about margaret going to see a psychologist or something, I don't know if it was true. A lot of the crown was pure fiction. But I hope so because they all seem to be out of touch with not just common people but also the human experience. For all the pomp and circumstance is interesting to me - it's hard to swallow a whole family where your experience of your parents and your worth and you whole life is available for public scrutiny, duty to the country outweighs family and no matter how your parents may have tried to avoid it, the heirs are going to feel more important/worthy. Recipe for psychological damage. and I think people now can more and more see that aspect. 

[noseybutt]

14 hours ago, viii said:

I'm not surprised. His family connections were already beginning to break apart by that point. William had already cautioned against marrying Meghan. Harry is paranoid at the best of times (it seems), and I wouldn't be surprised if he doubted that his family would even have Meghan's best interests at heart. 

@WatchingTheTireFireBurn I agree with you - I think people are far too harsh when it comes to Meghan's depression. I'll criticize both Harry and Meghan for a lot of things, but I won't on this one. For one thing, Meghan was severely depressed, to the point she wanted to take her own life. A lot of people who are at that point aren't thinking clearly and aren't reaching out for help. The answer to why she didn't talk to her doctor or a friend is obvious - SHE WAS DEPRESSED. Depressed people don't always seek out help. And again with Harry - he's paranoid and suspicious. Given his mother's mental health history, I'm not surprised he didn't know what to do either. The whole thing was a mess from the beginning. 

Suspicious? Yes. Mistrustful? Yes.

From a clinical/medical perspective, it’s not paranoia if it can possibly be true, even if odds of it being true are very very low.

 

On 2/12/2024 at 12:41 PM, VGL said:

I wonder why he (or she) didn't contact her OB or midwife, whoever was providing her prenatal care.

My guess: Post partum depression is not logical. A very high percentage of partners of the women with post partum are also depressed.

 

3 hours ago, Mrs Ms said:

Her not acting rational during a mental health crisis is a super shitty thing to rag on her for! 

And PLEASE can we agree to not doubt someone who says that they were suicidal depressed?

I really expected better from FJ, even when discussing an unpopular person!

This. 

[treehugger]

I’m honestly just surprised any postnatal exam screenings didn’t catch it so she could have gotten help from her OB. I know here in Canada, every time I went in with baby for a checkup and then their shots I had to complete a mental health screening for PPD. It was quite extensive.  There was also a lot of information given to my husband so he could get help if I needed it.  I’m genuinely surprised someone like H&M, with their access to the best physicians in the country didn’t have that.

I do not rag on them for having depression or not coping with it perfectly, but I did find the underlying accusations that it was the BRF’s fault somehow and that they were cold, callous people for not coddling her at that time a bit unfair.  If my memory serves right, Megan was the person who wanted to “hit the ground running” and go back to work so soon after Archie was born. I remember being surprised by how quickly she went back to work. I believe the British people have decent maternity leave. If Megan was the one who wanted to get started on life right away, I can see the BRF thinking if she was ok with it she must be fine. 

[GreenBeans]

8 minutes ago, treehugger said:

I know here in Canada, every time I went in with baby for a checkup and then their shots I had to complete a mental health screening for PPD. It was quite extensive.

Definitely not a thing here (Germany). I don’t think the pediatrician ever asked about my mental health. I mean, I had heard of PPD before the birth, and I guess you’d get help for it if you asked for it. But there is no systematic screening process in place. So unless you figure it out by yourself and manage to make the effort to get appropriate care (or have a husband or other close person who does), it likely wouldn’t register.

[treehugger]

The difference in healthcare between countries is so interesting!  I’m sure that was part of Megan’s struggles.  

[viii]

I think it's also important to remember that by the time Archie was born, Meghan had been a part of the royal family for less than a year. She already knew she was everything the royal family typically didn't look for, and was still trying to find her place. Even if her doctor did ask after her mental health, I wouldn't be surprised if she insisted everything was fine because when you're trying to fit in, who wants to be the person falling apart? 

[louisa05]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:44 AM, DalmatianCat said:

I wondered something similar when the interview from Africa came out when Meghan said “no one” asked how she was doing. It seemed to be a slam against the royal family but I was thinking, “Not your personal friends, not your mom? None of them were asking or checking on you?”

All of her husbands cousins and his SIL had their own busy lives, and Zara, Autumn, and Kate had their own children to care for, and it probably didn’t occur to them that an almost 40 year-old woman didn’t already have her own friend group (and she does have a living mother) to rely on or at least check-in on her.

My husband isn’t particularly close to any of his cousins. Therefore I have never once checked in on any of them after the birth of a child (and they’ve never checked on me). They live in different states, we’re barely acquaintances, and I operate on the assumption they have their own friends and close family just like I do. My own cousins are a different story. Does Meghan have any family she’s close to other than her mum?

All of this. My husband's extended family are not obligated to be my support system. And at that early stage of marriage/relationship, they certainly did not know me that well nor did I know them that well. My own family is a totally different story. And when my dad was dying, they were calling and texting to check on me. It never occurred to me to expect my husband's family to be doing that. 

But I think this story was told much differently than it happened. If it happened at all. 

[treehugger]

@viii I agree with that.  I think she came into the family desperately trying to prove she was not only able to keep up and do everything right off the hop (Kate spent years learning and adjusting to the lifestyle), it went so quick with Megan. And I don’t blame the BRF for that, because it’s been indicated that they all told Harry to take it easy.

But Harry and Meghan did burst into the scene with a lot of grand claims that they desperately wanted to prove. That Meghan was more competent than the average woman, that she was brilliant and successful and going to take her new role by the horns and be so impressive, that I think she gave herself a role that was impossible to do. And I can imagine the weight of those self-imposed expectations would have been crushing. But also, where would she go for help then? 

And postpartum feelings are no joke. It must have been very overwhelming.  The UK does have 26 weeks of maternity leave though, up to a year. So I don’t think she needed to go back to work less than 4 months after giving birth. Maybe that was an American hangover? I don’t know. 

[louisa05]

12 minutes ago, treehugger said:

@viii I agree with that.  I think she came into the family desperately trying to prove she was not only able to keep up and do everything right off the hop (Kate spent years learning and adjusting to the lifestyle), it went so quick with Megan. And I don’t blame the BRF for that, because it’s been indicated that they all told Harry to take it easy.

But Harry and Meghan did burst into the scene with a lot of grand claims that they desperately wanted to prove. That Meghan was more competent than the average woman, that she was brilliant and successful and going to take her new role by the horns and be so impressive, that I think she gave herself a role that was impossible to do. And I can imagine the weight of those self-imposed expectations would have been crushing. But also, where would she go for help then? 

And postpartum feelings are no joke. It must have been very overwhelming.  The UK does have 26 weeks of maternity leave though, up to a year. So I don’t think she needed to go back to work less than 4 months after giving birth. Maybe that was an American hangover? I don’t know. 

The way they framed her going back more quickly than is typical for women in the UK (royal or not) was that she's so committed and dedicated and such a hard worker that she just couldn't imagine taking a long maternity leave (along with being a perfect hands on mother that absolutely certainly wasn't hiring a nanny!). And I think that pushing to be known for that was a mistake from the beginning.  But at the bottom of it all, she is a very insecure woman who desperately needed to be the center of attention and still does.  It's no secret that her parents were not functional. Her mother was not consistently around and her father was, by all accounts, a workaholic. She seems to need approval wherever she can get it and growing up in Hollywood, she figured out she could get it from media and popular appeal. That need set her up for failure in the fishbowl of royalty. 

[TN-peach]

The comment she made was while she was still pregnant.  So it would have been when she was seeing just her OB and mid-wife. 

 

The "no one has asked me how I am doing" comment was when they were on the South Africa tour and Archie was an infant.

Also, in a quick Google search many sources seem to support that Princess Margaret received therapy in the 1970s after her marriage broke down.  It was in a couple of biographies but nothing confirmed.  This was for her depression. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 15 by TN-peach
More information

[treehugger]

I made the mistake, a few posts up, of saying a lot of Meghan’s expectations were self imposed, but I actually don’t know if it was Meghan who gave herself those expectations or if some of them were also pushed by Harry. In Spare it did seem somewhat that he had put her on a pedestal, and sometimes when you are in a new relationship (and it was a very new relationship), you can feel pressure to do impossible things because of the ideals and expectations of the new partner.  I think sometimes, Harry would have had a lot of expectations, and wanted to show Meghan off and impress people with her.  He also doesn’t strike me as the most observant or attentive person. It could have been quite difficult for her. And it is always easier to lash out at a spouse’s family instead.

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

All of this. My husband's extended family are not obligated to be my support system. And at that early stage of marriage/relationship, they certainly did not know me that well nor did I know them that well. My own family is a totally different story. And when my dad was dying, they were calling and texting to check on me. It never occurred to me to expect my husband's family to be doing that. 

But I think this story was told much differently than it happened. If it happened at all. 

This is very cultural though and also family specific. My in-laws were a very loving support system for me from the early stages of the relationship. They were geographically close while my bio family was far away. 

I don’t begrudge anyone desiring supportive family relationships. It’s a pretty basic human need.

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, TN-peach said:

The comment she made was while she was still pregnant.  So it would have been when she was seeing just her OB and mid-wife. 

 

The "no one has asked me how I am doing" comment was when they were on the South Africa tour and Archie was an infant.

Also, in a quick Google search many sources seem to support that Princess Margaret received therapy in the 1970s after her marriage broke down.  It was in a couple of biographies but nothing confirmed.  This was for her depression. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Yes, Margaret did. Diana did at various times, at Charles’ urging, but quit every time. Charles arranged grief counseling for both boys after Diana’s death. Charles had a therapist himself for 14 years beginning early in his first marriage. Both William and Harry have talked about going to therapy as adults (prior to Meghan’s arrival). And, of course, William, Catherine and Harry spearheaded a campaign to destigmatize mental health struggles and seeking therapy. This narrative that discussing mental health or seeking help is forbidden in the royal family was absolute nonsense. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

We don't know though what the pressure she felt was. There could also have been pressure from BRF as an institution. I think it gets overlooked but  there does seem to be a vast apparatus of advisors and other support staff who dictate a lot of things that happen and put pressure on the royals to conform to traditions and expectations. I seem to recall quite a few statements here and there back in the day from Diana and Fergie about how oppressive some of the courtiers expectations would be. And I've certainly heard much more lately about when Philip came in how he had to push back strongly on a lot of that stuff. 

I also think a lot of what people attribute to meghan is jumbled up with actual things she said, unproved accusations/tabloid type commentary & headlines, and people's interpretations of  unclear events/statements.  Most of what I've heard from her interviews I've heard interpreted much more harshly than how I would interpret the same statement. 

I hate to think how people would interpret some of the off handed things I've said or done. There seems to be a tendency to assume the worst possible interpretation of everything she does. Which I'm happy to ascribe to Trump/Jrod/Pr. Andrew, but I don't think meghan is an evil mastermind and that she said or did all these things on purpose to mislead people. 

She went through a huge upheaval in her life, clearly didn't have enough support of whatever kind she needed, struggled a lot,  and then she did NOT rise to the occasion.  Does that make her particularly manipulative or selfish? I don't know.

I do think to myself that were I in that situation I would DEFINITELY have fucked it up much much worse. I probably would have cussed out photographers, kicked some random bystanders, and then cried while sitting on the curb until somebody hauled me away.

I guess at the end I put more "blame" on Harry, he seems absurdly clueless for a grown ass adult and I'm frustrated at the very negative view of meghan with much more critique of her and every minute action vs harry.  It seems to me to be a lot of the blame the woman sort of syndrome that exists and the man gets off cuz ya know - men - what do you expect. 

Those are my thoughts for whatever it's worth.

Now the snarky side of me wishes they would do something new so we can see if they're learning or doubling down on being ding-dongs. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

1 hour ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

 

Now the snarky side of me wishes they would do something new so we can see if they're learning or doubling down on being ding-dongs. 

 As someone who is learning and in therapy some ding dong is part of the process. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

4 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

 As someone who is learning and in therapy some ding dong is part of the process. 

This is one of those statements that could sooooooo easily be misconstrued!!

I hope there's some sort of harry and meghan group therapy situation going on. As I've mentioned before, I really enjoyed the Windsors on netflix, where they brutally make fun of the royals. When I first watched it I thought: they really made harry seem like a total airhead idiot, ha ha, they really did roast him! But now I'm like....hmmm....maybe it was more accurate than originally thought. 

I wish there would be some news from somewhere other than trump and jrod. I can't keep up with jrod, I barely keep up with trump nonsense. but everybody else moves too slow to keep interest. 

[Four is Enough]

22 hours ago, treehugger said:

 In Spare it did seem somewhat that he had put her on a pedestal, and sometimes when you are in a new relationship (and it was a very new relationship), you can feel pressure to do impossible things because of the ideals and expectations of the new partner.  I think sometimes, Harry would have had a lot of expectations, and wanted to show Meghan off and impress people with her.  He also doesn’t strike me as the most observant or attentive person. It could have been quite difficult for her. And it is always easier to lash out at a spouse’s family instead.

I'd agree with this. I think Harry would have conflated Meghan with Diana, and put them both on the pedestal together.  His expectations for them both were/are excessive.

[klein_roeschen]

11 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

 As someone who is learning and in therapy some ding dong is part of the process. 

And therapy isn't some magic where someone goes for a few sessions, lays on a couch and talking about emotions and bam, changed and healed. Just sending someone of to therapy won't change anything. The person attending the sessions has to be on board to have an impact. Sometimes there will be sessions that are hard to bear because they touch painfull memories but you have to work through it to get to a better place. If you have a therapist that fits what you need and what you want to achieve, you will sometimes love the therapist and sometimes hate them. That's part of the therapy journey. But the core still stands, the person in therapy needs to want to be there and do the work together. And if Harry only has attended therapy for others and not for himself, than these sessions where wasted.

[tabitha2]

Yes! If Harry actually thought he absoy fine and in right and the others were all the problem or the cause of all problems , refused to face hard truths or realities that could start the healing process and he wanted to be the Victim for whatever reason then it was all pointless no matter how qualified , empathetic the help he received.  

[just_ordinary]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:10 PM, GreenBeans said:

Definitely not a thing here (Germany). I don’t think the pediatrician ever asked about my mental health. I mean, I had heard of PPD before the birth, and I guess you’d get help for it if you asked for it. But there is no systematic screening process in place. So unless you figure it out by yourself and manage to make the effort to get appropriate care (or have a husband or other close person who does), it likely wouldn’t register.

But you have a midwife that will come to see you up to 12 months or till baby starts weaning. They are there for baby and mother. No charge as it is paid by your health care provider. If they feel something is up they can refer you or support you longer. It’s often in combination with your gynaecologist who might he the one that has to formally write the referral or prescribe more midwife support. 
A lot of PPD still gets overlooked. Our midwives are spread crazy thin and the situation only gets worse. And there is so much misconception and guilt around the topic that many women just don’t open up around it. 
I would say that there is also a big range between baby blues and PPD. And being a first time mum can definitely be a massive struggle. I know many mums that felt the first year was the hardest. Physically and mentally. It’s absolutely ok to struggle, even if you are not having an actual medical condition. I would wager the bet that way more do than let on. 
I have lots of sympathy for M but non for H in that situation. I get why she might have come back so “early”. Kate took 6 weeks before her first engagement I think. So 4 months was already long. And I get why she felt the pressure to perform. It was up to him to protect her. Even from herself in that regard. He could have said, screw the grey suits. I think he definitely failed big time her as a partner. Maybe it’s good that they made their families their enemies. So they don’t need to look too closely at home. That could lead to lots of resentment. 

[Jackie3]

Gotta say, they look like they're having fun in Whistler!

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Culture/video/prince-harry-talks-king-charles-amid-cancer-battle-107286622

Interview with Harry in Canada as promotion for Invictus Games

My takeway - he doesn't seem quite happy and bubbly like I've seen him in the past. moments of tension for some questions - but also deflecting sensitive questions without saying anything negative.

All in all a bland and boring interview - which is probably to his benefit.

Meghan shown in background but not really featured and also probably to the benefit for PR.

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

13 hours ago, klein_roeschen said:

And therapy isn't some magic where someone goes for a few sessions, lays on a couch and talking about emotions and bam, changed and healed. Just sending someone of to therapy won't change anything. The person attending the sessions has to be on board to have an impact. Sometimes there will be sessions that are hard to bear because they touch painfull memories but you have to work through it to get to a better place. If you have a therapist that fits what you need and what you want to achieve, you will sometimes love the therapist and sometimes hate them. That's part of the therapy journey. But the core still stands, the person in therapy needs to want to be there and do the work together. And if Harry only has attended therapy for others and not for himself, than these sessions where wasted.

Oh yes. I know so many people who want a magic pill to make it all better and the reality is even if you find the perfect solution you still have to put in the work. Therapy is tough, hard work but in the end it’s so worth it. 

[TN-peach]

Harry lost his case for security protection.  He is planning to appeal.  But since he lost this case he owes court costs - again.

[viii]

15 minutes ago, TN-peach said:

Harry lost his case for security protection.  He is planning to appeal.  But since he lost this case he owes court costs - again.

He needs to be like Elsa and let it go.