Dillards 93: Counting the Cost - Indeed

[QuiverFullofBooks]

7 hours ago, eljayem said:

Another thing that stood out in the Q&A for me is that they were asked what type of Christianity they follow and they didn't answer. They just said bible-led or something. (As a non-Christian I'm used to people saying Catholic, Methodist, Baptist etc) I wonder if this is a way to avoid anyone guessing which church they attend for privacy and also avoiding any controversy that may be attached to that church (if there is any).

It’s common for fundamentalist Christian churches to be non-denominational.

[Cam]

I bought the book yesterday with credit card points and the Kindle app says I’ve read 25% of it so far. I  have none of the religious cult background of Jill nor was ever a SA victim, but I am finding the book very difficult to read on an emotional level which very much surprises me. I cannot believe how much continuous emphasis JB and Michele put on modesty, purity, no touching the opposite sex, men thinking bad thoughts, etcetera, beginning with before their children were ten years old! At one point JB comes home and tells his kids the local gas station is selling pornography. Why in the world would the kids even need to be made aware of that? So Josh leads his brothers in an (unsuccessful) attempt to get people to boycott the place. I find it totally bizarre that this very adult matter was tossed out there for young children to try to tackle.

Then you have Michele telling her young children that if they shake their butts while dancing people will stare at their body and think bad thoughts. She impresses upon them they must be very, very careful how they move their bodies. She’s telling this to young children! While she’s playing joyful music that makes them want to bop around! It’s so bizarre to me. 

Father Son Holy Goat, you and so many others were duped by TLC which actively, intentionally sanitized the insidiousness of the Duggars religious cult lifestyle and the IBLP to make them palatable to the general public. All the information we know now about them wasn’t readily available back then, so allow yourself some grace for your viewing habits. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Cam

[Meggo]

5 minutes ago, Cam said:

I bought the book yesterday with credit card points and the Kindle app says I’ve read 25% of it so far. I  have none of the religious cult background of Jill nor was ever a SA victim, but I am finding the book very difficult to read on an emotional level which very much surprises me.

I've been a little nervous to pick it up actually. I was raised Catholic - but the very strict "your body is sinful" type. So while my parents didn't tell us not to dance (and did put me in ballet classes) - modesty was VERY big in my family. I remember being less than 6 and being SO hot in our house (because dad didn't put the a/c on - ever) and not being allowed to sleep in my underwear. (I had two older sisters - the chances of anything happening were slim). I know that my dad took me on anti-abortion rallies when I was less than 6 (and actually it was probably a LOT younger because I remember the stroller being involved and it was a tiny thing so I must have been about 3). My mom was always obsessed with us covering up and not kissing boys etc. So I'm worried it will be triggering in some way. But I want to read it...

 

[Cam]

Meggo, I’m reading it slowly and giving myself time to process it. Since it isn’t my usual library loan, I don’t have to rush. Perhaps you could do the same. I’m an avid reader of memoirs because they offer a more well-rounded picture of someone’s life rather than reading snippets from magazine articles or even watching interviews. For that reason, I’m glad I got the book, to better understand, from Jill’s perspective, what went on in this family that we’re all so invested in on this forum. 

[Xan]

12 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

What was that awful story where JimBob let Jessa keep Jana's music box or some such. The wronged adult girl cried in an interview because of unresolved pain.

If I remember correctly, it was about Jana complaining to Michelle about Jessa.  Apparently, Jessa slept in the lower bunk and thought that kicking Jana's upper bunk was fun.  Michelle told her to give Jessa a gift and try to mend their relationship.  She ended up having to give Jessa her jewelry/music box and Jessa, of course, kept it.

I thought that was really bad parenting on Michelle's part.  Jessa was the one misbehaving.  Why reward her?

ETA:  I just looked this incident up and Jana asked both Jim Bob and Michelle how to repair this relationship with Jessa.  Jessa wasn't just kicking the bed -- she was also pulling off Jana's blankets.  

Edited September 18, 2023 by Xan

[Kiki03910]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I am feeling a lot of guilt for watching the show, and contributing to Jill’s trauma. Why was it I couldn’t see what this family really was? I just feel ashamed. 

Please don't be so hard on yourself. Almost everyone here has watched most of these shows, Duggars, Bates, whatever. The asshole adults put them out there. None of us knew how awful it was. You come across as a very kind, thoughtful person. I know I'm just an internet rando, but cut yourself some slack. BIG HUGS.

[backyard sylph]

8 hours ago, eljayem said:

As someone has said they did a Q&A in which they said they were not IBLP and were not going to use any of their literature etc in their home or attend conferences etc.

I think what has helped Joy and Austin is Austin's father/family. They own and run a business that caters for Christian family and large group camps. So they will have a lot of their own connections and not rely on the Duggars. In the past the Forsyth's may have been eager to suck up to JB, especially with the TV show which would have been great advertising - JB took a bunch of girls to the camp way back when Joy was still a little girl and it featured on the tv show - but I doubt the Forsyth's feel the same now. (unrelated but I wonder if Austen and Joy are in-line to inherit the land and business when his parents retire? It certainly helps that Joy repeatedly says how much she loves it there)

Another thing that stood out in the Q&A for me is that they were asked what type of Christianity they follow and they didn't answer. They just said bible-led or something. (As a non-Christian I'm used to people saying Catholic, Methodist, Baptist etc) I wonder if this is a way to avoid anyone guessing which church they attend for privacy and also avoiding any controversy that may be attached to that church (if there is any). Then later on Joy said a reason she wouldn't want to leave Arkansas aside from family and friends is her church - she LOVES her church, she was quite emphatic on that point. I'm not sure if her in-laws are involved in the same church she and Austin go to but she seems to have a deep connection I think for her the phrase "church-family" is probably actually literal - which may have helped her distance herself from her family and at the same time avoid the emotional/drama that could have come with it.

My guess is that it's pretty easy for them to see that IBLP is totally extrabiblical, and they think they want to be wholly biblical. And they'd probably experienced so few church environments, one that just 'preached the "actual" gospel' and had nice handshakings and singing and Sunday lunches, etc., probably seemed staggeringly good. They wouldn't trust that this is pretty common other places; this one imprinted on them. And thus, as Joy, at least, has little life outside home and church,  it would feel like moving to another planet to move to a different region.

I live in an area that is being completely made over road-wise in order to support growth or whatever, you can Google Eastgate 32 construction in Cincinnati if you want to appreciate some complete madness, and so my latest back route to a store I like took me past a Baptist church yesterday morning. It didn't seem that large to me, but there were hundreds of cars in the parking lot. The Bengals still lost, though. 

[EmiSue]

4 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I am feeling a lot of guilt for watching the show, and contributing to Jill’s trauma. Why was it I couldn’t see what this family really was? I just feel ashamed. 

You and so many others were victims of a major long-con. IBLP, the Duggars, and TLC all deliberately covered up what was really going on. Hence "Shiny Happy People" and the memoirs.

4 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I am feeling a lot of guilt for watching the show, and contributing to Jill’s trauma. Why was it I couldn’t see what this family really was? I just feel ashamed. 

You and so many others were victims of a major long-con. IBLP, the Duggars, and TLC all deliberately covered up what was really going on. Hence "Shiny Happy People" and the memoirs.

4 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I am feeling a lot of guilt for watching the show, and contributing to Jill’s trauma. Why was it I couldn’t see what this family really was? I just feel ashamed. 

You and so many others were victims of a major long-con. IBLP, the Duggars, and TLC all deliberately covered up what was really going on. Hence "Shiny Happy People" and the memoirs.

[SassyPants]

Was (IS) the Big Sandy convention associated with IBLP? Didn’t most of the Duggars and ILs attend, and even participate as guest speakers? 

Another thing that always intrigued me about these folks and the Bates too, is that those living in the same geographic area didn’t attend the same church, and many, especially JB/M, would church hop quite a bit. As someone raised Catholic, we just did not do that. You would think that all of Gil’s offspring would attend his church {if geographically possible}, but they do not.

To me it almost seems like church is treated as a social gathering and which venue you attend is based on your friendships and the activities involved vs worshipping the word of God.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, Xan said:

If I remember correctly, it was about Jana complaining to Michelle about Jessa.  Apparently, Jessa slept in the lower bunk and thought that kicking Jana's upper bunk was fun.  Michelle told her to give Jessa a gift and try to mend their relationship.  She ended up having to give Jessa her jewelry/music box and Jessa, of course, kept it.

I thought that was really bad parenting on Michelle's part.  Jessa was the one misbehaving.  Why reward her?

ETA:  I just looked this incident up and Jana asked both Jim Bob and Michelle how to repair this relationship with Jessa.  Jessa wasn't just kicking the bed -- she was also pulling off Jana's blankets.  

Yep, the victim of the bad behavior always seems to be the one who has to fix it in the Duggar family. 

[Bad Wolf]

I was 8th on the wait list at my library with a projected 18 week wait, so I bought the Kindle edition. My library has since bought  2 more copies. I hope J and D make tons of money from this.

 I would imagine giving details of Josh's abuse, and the blanket training and corporal punishment would have been just too hard. Good boundaries, Jill.

[metheglyn]

13 hours ago, eljayem said:

Another thing that stood out in the Q&A for me is that they were asked what type of Christianity they follow and they didn't answer. They just said bible-led or something. (As a non-Christian I'm used to people saying Catholic, Methodist, Baptist etc) I wonder if this is a way to avoid anyone guessing which church they attend for privacy and also avoiding any controversy that may be attached to that church (if there is any). Then later on Joy said a reason she wouldn't want to leave Arkansas aside from family and friends is her church - she LOVES her church, she was quite emphatic on that point. I'm not sure if her in-laws are involved in the same church she and Austin go to but she seems to have a deep connection I think for her the phrase "church-family" is probably actually literal - which may have helped her distance herself from her family and at the same time avoid the emotional/drama that could have come with it.

As I recall, Austin concluded by saying that the *church* they're attending is Baptist, though whether that's IFB, Southern Baptist, American Baptist, or something else is left up in the air. I'd guess it's likely more on the IFB spectrum, but Cross Church, for instance, is Southern Baptist, so they might have branched out into a broader denomination of Baptist.

[BullyJBG]

6 hours ago, Xan said:

If I remember correctly, it was about Jana complaining to Michelle about Jessa.  Apparently, Jessa slept in the lower bunk and thought that kicking Jana's upper bunk was fun.  Michelle told her to give Jessa a gift and try to mend their relationship.  She ended up having to give Jessa her jewelry/music box and Jessa, of course, kept it.

I thought that was really bad parenting on Michelle's part.  Jessa was the one misbehaving.  Why reward her?

ETA:  I just looked this incident up and Jana asked both Jim Bob and Michelle how to repair this relationship with Jessa.  Jessa wasn't just kicking the bed -- she was also pulling off Jana's blankets.  

Oh. My. It just hit me; Jana is the victim of reactive abuse! Keep talking about it

[Father Son Holy Goat]

23 minutes ago, BullyJBG said:

Oh. My. It just hit me; Jana is the victim of reactive abuse! Keep talking about it

It’s very much a DARVO move. We’re also seeing a lot of DARVO in Jim Bob and Michelle’s statement about not airing family dirty laundry after making millions doing just that. 
 

For those not aware, here is more information about DARVO: https://www.verywellmind.com/protecting-yourself-from-darvo-abusive-behavior-7562730

[Xan]

The older girls did a talking heads segment about it on "19 K&C".  Jana was teary eyed.  Jessa remarked that, after Jana gave her the jewelry box, it wasn't "as much fun" to torment her.  

It seemed to me that Jessa was the squeaky wheel that JB & M allowed to have her way.  Instead of dealing with her themselves, they left Jana to manage her.  They had no interest in really parenting the children.  I remember feeling sorry for Jana at the time and not liking Jessa at all.

[viii]

I really don’t understand how Jessa has the most followers. She comes across incredibly unlikeable. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

21 minutes ago, viii said:

I really don’t understand how Jessa has the most followers. She comes across incredibly unlikeable. 

Because she’s conventionally pretty, shows her kids faces, and creates a lot of kid focused content like her dad? That’s my only guess. Because if she stopped showing her kids, I bet she would lose followers and likes. 

[SassyPants]

9 hours ago, Cam said:

I bought the book yesterday with credit card points and the Kindle app says I’ve read 25% of it so far. I  have none of the religious cult background of Jill nor was ever a SA victim, but I am finding the book very difficult to read on an emotional level which very much surprises me. I cannot believe how much continuous emphasis JB and Michele put on modesty, purity, no touching the opposite sex, men thinking bad thoughts, etcetera, beginning with before their children were ten years old! At one point JB comes home and tells his kids the local gas station is selling pornography. Why in the world would the kids even need to be made aware of that? So Josh leads his brothers in an (unsuccessful) attempt to get people to boycott the place. I find it totally bizarre that this very adult matter was tossed out there for young children to try to tackle.

Then you have Michele telling her young children that if they shake their butts while dancing people will stare at their body and think bad thoughts. She impresses upon them they must be very, very careful how they move their bodies. She’s telling this to young children! While she’s playing joyful music that makes them want to bop around! It’s so bizarre to me. 

Father Son Holy Goat, you and so many others were duped by TLC which actively, intentionally sanitized the insidiousness of the Duggars religious cult lifestyle and the IBLP to make them palatable to the general public. All the information we know now about them wasn’t readily available back then, so allow yourself some grace for your viewing habits. 

What do you bet that JB reprimanded (shamed) Michelle in the same fashion in their early years? Hasn’t JB mentioned the bikini/lawnmower incident in public talks?

[patsymae]

18 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Because she’s conventionally pretty, shows her kids faces, and creates a lot of kid focused content like her dad? That’s my only guess. Because if she stopped showing her kids, I bet she would lose followers and likes. 

I don't know but I suspect most of her followers are conservative Christian SAHMs who see her as a role model. She has a hot husband who is a preacher, her own house (regardless of who actually owns it), her kids are adorable AF and she never seems flustered. And who doesn't like another mom who feels OK about her messy house. It's like Meech without the chaos and craycray.

[FilleMondaine]

When I was being controlled and abused by my mother, it felt ‘good’ to be powerful in other ways. It was sick, but I was young, and being harmed. Now, my whole career balances that karma. I know that I always was a good person, deep down.

All of that to say that Jessa’s situation is awfully complex. But after a certain time, you just become complexly awful. I suppose I will stay agnostic until she is a ‘real’ grownup.

[shesinsane]

I'm almost done with Jill's audiobook and today I noticed something about odd (but consistent) how Jim Bob is referenced. When Jim Bob signs a letter to his kids, it's from Daddy. When Jill quotes her own letter to her father, she addresses him as Daddy*. But whenever Jill (or one of her siblings) talks about Jim Bob, it's Pops, Pops, and more Pops. He hasn't been referenced any other way, aside from Pops. Once I noticed this, it got confirmed over and over again.

*Both of these letters were written in the 20-teens, not when Jill was little.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Because she’s conventionally pretty, shows her kids faces, and creates a lot of kid focused content like her dad? That’s my only guess. Because if she stopped showing her kids, I bet she would lose followers and likes. 

JMO, but I think adult (married life for some) has aged Jessa far more than her siblings. I hope she is happy and living the life that she wants vs what she believes is being dictated by others (JB, Ben, ILBP). Her adult sisters all seem to have their own, individual interests, but I don’t see that with Jessa.

[JermajestyDuggar]

41 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

JMO, but I think adult (married life for some) has aged Jessa far more than her siblings. I hope she is happy and living the life that she wants vs what she believes is being dictated by others (JB, Ben, ILBP). Her adult sisters all seem to have their own, individual interests, but I don’t see that with Jessa.

I honestly never saw her as a deep or interesting Duggar daughter. She was always just… there. Even when they were on the show. Jinger loved photography and wanted to live in a city. Jill loved childbirth, babies, and kids. Jana was the home decorator and EMT wanna be. Did Jessa have any interests? Except doing her hair and make up? I’m not saying that’s bad. I think hair and make up can be a creative outlet. But hers was kind of boring. 

[louisa05]

8 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Was (IS) the Big Sandy convention associated with IBLP? Didn’t most of the Duggars and ILs attend, and even participate as guest speakers? 

Another thing that always intrigued me about these folks and the Bates too, is that those living in the same geographic area didn’t attend the same church, and many, especially JB/M, would church hop quite a bit. As someone raised Catholic, we just did not do that. You would think that all of Gil’s offspring would attend his church {if geographically possible}, but they do not.

To me it almost seems like church is treated as a social gathering and which venue you attend is based on your friendships and the activities involved vs worshipping the word of God.

A friend raised hardcore evangelical was appalled when she found out we go to the most convenient mass each weekend even if it’s not always the same one. She was even more appalled to learn that we sometimes go to different parishes if it works better. She asked me this: “but how do you fellowship with church friends?”  Me: church is not for socializing, it’s for church. She couldn’t even grasp that thought. 

[SassyPants]

36 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I honestly never saw her as a deep or interesting Duggar daughter. She was always just… there. Even when they were on the show. Jinger loved photography and wanted to live in a city. Jill loved childbirth, babies, and kids. Jana was the home decorator and EMT wanna be. Did Jessa have any interests? Except doing her hair and make up? I’m not saying that’s bad. I think hair and make up can be a creative outlet. But hers was kind of boring. 

Yep. This is why I’m always shocked when people say that Jessa is the smart one. Based on what metric? She’s always seemed bored and disinterested to me. Her goal was to get out of the TTH, and I think it backfired. She should have married a man, not a teenage boy.