Seewalds 48: Homophobia Now Mixed With Hypocrisy

[JermajestyDuggar]

47 minutes ago, viii said:

I feel like that’s a very condescending thing to say to unmarried, childless people. We're not idiots. We know kids are expensive and hard work. It's why majority of us don't have kids. 

I guess I should have said young fundie unmarrieds. That’s what we were talking about but I guess I should have specified. 

[AussieKrissy]

3 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

Reading all of this about having three kids is fascinating to me considering I am sitting here 34 weeks pregnant with twins. We are done after three, we wanted two... but when the second pregnancy ends up being twins then guess its three 😛 

oh do you know what you are having lol other than 2 babies of course 

are they fraternal, identical ?

Here I am waving my weird fascination with twins flags 

Congrats BTW.

The same thing happened to my friend they wanted two and bam second pregnancy identical girls 

Are you finding this pregnancy much different than your singleton?

Feel free not to answer, I get that they are personal questions

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Jessa definitely looks pregnant in that pic. Hopefully they’ll stop at 5, she was the 5th so maybe that will have meaning for her. 

[browngrl]

28 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Hopefully they’ll stop at 5

Unless there is a tragedy eg maternal death, hysterectomy, Jessa will not stop. She is deep in the koolaid and has been raised from birth to give birth. 

[fluffernutter]

@OldFadedStar Congratulations! We have three all in their twenties now, and it was perfect. It'll be awesome for you too! 💕

[CanadianMamam]

I have 3 and I feel in some ways the world has changed to be more accommodating towards 3? We drive a comfortable mini van, food courts are the only place we ever struggle with seating adn even then, we can usually make it work. We tend to travel to kid friendly hotels and many of them come with extra beds, either a pull-out couch or when we went to Great Wold Lodge, we had 4 beds (Queen and 3 singles) and we are looking at going south in the winter and again, lots of places that accommodate the larger family. 
 

My best friend was one of 3 in the 80s and she remembers it being a lot more awkward, so I do think that there have just been subtle changes that make it easier. 
 

It is not without challenges of course and I often feel there is an odd man out (though who ir is changes) but I also like having 3 adn I think they balance each other well and I haven’t run into many outside world obstacles. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I want 3, my husband wants 2, we took years to conceive our first so I guess we may end up with just one.  These fundies have given me the idea of snowflake adoption, though, so maybe we'll try that nature really doesn't play ball.  I haven't looked into it seriously, though.

[viii]

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I guess I should have said young fundie unmarrieds. That’s what we were talking about but I guess I should have specified. 

Thank you for clarifying. I completely agree to that opinion! 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I feel like 3 kids is the new 4. In the 90s I saw a lot more 4 kid families, now I don’t know anyone who has more than 3 (with the exception of my pastor who is up to 13 including fosters) 

[Smash!]

To read your stories has been fascinating. The decision whether to have children or not has been a big topic for me lately. Biology is strong yet once you have children it‘s all the positives but also the downsides and the hard parts.

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I feel like 3 kids is the new 4. In the 90s I saw a lot more 4 kid families, now I don’t know anyone who has more than 3 (with the exception of my pastor who is up to 13 including fosters) 

I think our country is doing this to their own people and then say, “why is everyone having less kids?!?” If a country makes it very hard to even have kids in general, let alone more than 2, then of course people will start having less and less children. Our country is so behind when it comes to taking care of parents. First of all, maternity leave and paternity leave are a complete joke. We are one of the richest countries and yet we have one of the worst maternity leaves in all of the world. You are lucky if you get more than 6 weeks. And paternity leave is almost non existent. Then there’s health care. It’s fucking expensive to give birth in a hospital even if you have insurance! I don’t even want to think about the cost of NICU stays or complications. You could be bankrupt just for having a baby and having complications. Then there’s the ridiculously high cost of child care. I don’t know how people are supposed to afford childcare when childcare costs have gone way up and our wages haven’t. Maybe people could afford childcare in the 80s because they were paid enough to cover the cost. But nowadays, if you have more than one kid in childcare, you may as well just stay home because your paycheck may not even cover the cost of 2 kids in daycare. And I didn’t even touch on housing costs in some cities. It’s insanely high in larger cities and people don’t want to live in a one bedroom apartment with 2 kids. So it’s out to the suburbs! Which means they must have a car and lots of gas money to drive everywhere since it’s all spread out and they have a big commute to work now. 
 

Basically all this to say, yes, people are having less kids but our government can absolutely do something about it. But they don’t. And I don’t see much happening in the future either. 

[Sullie06]

16 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

Reading all of this about having three kids is fascinating to me considering I am sitting here 34 weeks pregnant with twins. We are done after three, we wanted two... but when the second pregnancy ends up being twins then guess its three 😛 

I feel this so much. We were almost in your exact situation. When our oldest was 1 decided to start trying for 2 (our last). It had taken us 3 years to conceive 1 so we were shocked when it was two cycles this time. Then bam, first ultrasound, twins. My husband about fell out. Unfortunately we had Vanishing Twin Syndrome and lost one between 9-12 weeks. Still got those tubes tied though, wasn't risking that again. 

[HeartsAFundie]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think our country is doing this to their own people and then say, “why is everyone having less kids?!?” If a country makes it very hard to even have kids in general, let alone more than 2, then of course people will start having less and less children. Our country is so behind when it comes to taking care of parents. First of all, maternity leave and paternity leave are a complete joke. We are one of the richest countries and yet we have one of the worst maternity leaves in all of the world. You are lucky if you get more than 6 weeks. And paternity leave is almost non existent. Then there’s health care. It’s fucking expensive to give birth in a hospital even if you have insurance! I don’t even want to think about the cost of NICU stays or complications. You could be bankrupt just for having a baby and having complications. Then there’s the ridiculously high cost of child care. I don’t know how people are supposed to afford childcare when childcare costs have gone way up and our wages haven’t. Maybe people could afford childcare in the 80s because they were paid enough to cover the cost. But nowadays, if you have more than one kid in childcare, you may as well just stay home because your paycheck may not even cover the cost of 2 kids in daycare. And I didn’t even touch on housing costs in some cities. It’s insanely high in larger cities and people don’t want to live in a one bedroom apartment with 2 kids. So it’s out to the suburbs! Which means they must have a car and lots of gas money to drive everywhere since it’s all spread out and they have a big commute to work now. 
 

Basically all this to say, yes, people are having less kids but our government can absolutely do something about it. But they don’t. And I don’t see much happening in the future either. 

 IF I could like your post 100 times I would.  This is exactly why I only have one child, delivery complications aside.  I had three weeks out before I had him in 1996 due to borderline pre-eclampsia; gave birth in mid-February and was back to work well before late March.  Only took 6 weeks maternity leave in addition to the three weeks disability beforehand.  I could have gone for the full 12 weeks for maternity leave under Bill Clinton's newly signed FMLA act, but I wasn't going to be paid by my company after the first 6 weeks as I would no longer be considered "disabled".  We had a house to pay for.  So back to work I went.  Luckily my husband worked second shift and weekends so we could keep child care issues to a minimum. And my sister recently had a baby of her own and worked part-time on the days my husband was off, so I paid her to watch my son a couple of hours a day on the three weekdays our work schedules overlapped.  But I did use some vacation time upon immediately returning from maternity leave to leave work early on the days both my husband and I worked-and after three weeks, was called into the office and advised it couldn't go on because it was disruptive to the work schedule.   

I ended up leaving that company and going to one that actually offered subsidized on-site child care to its employees.  However, it was so popular that I had to wait three years before my son was accepted.  It was a wonderful benefit.  I paid $80/week, including lunch-the kids were served food from the on-site cafeteria.  They ate things like Chicken Cordon Bleu; Chicken, Broccoli and Ziti; and Spanish Rice-whatever the cafeteria served that day, the kids got.  My son remembers it and still speaks fondly of it.       

The company I recently retired from has really stepped up on their own and now offers extended maternity and paternity leave to all employed "birthpeople" or their employed partners/spouses.  My former assistant manager took 8 paid weeks paternity leave after the birth of his son.  Hopefully more companies will follow this example and take matters into their own hands.  I am also fortunate enough to live in a state that recently enacted its own Paid Family Leave Program for its workers, funded by payroll deductions. So there's hope, but it seems to be more of a patchwork state as opposed to unified.  All depends on where you live and work.  

Sadly, all the uncertainties surrounding leave, childcare as well as the state of the world in general probably play a huge role as to why my son and his girlfriend don't want kids. They are intelligent, kind people who would make wonderful parents too.  

Edited August 17, 2023 by HeartsAFundie

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think our country is doing this to their own people and then say, “why is everyone having less kids?!?” If a country makes it very hard to even have kids in general, let alone more than 2, then of course people will start having less and less children. Our country is so behind when it comes to taking care of parents. First of all, maternity leave and paternity leave are a complete joke. We are one of the richest countries and yet we have one of the worst maternity leaves in all of the world. You are lucky if you get more than 6 weeks. And paternity leave is almost non existent. Then there’s health care. It’s fucking expensive to give birth in a hospital even if you have insurance!

My country has 16 weeks maternity leave plus 16 weeks paternity leave (usually, first mom does her leave, then dad, so the baby is more time at home instead than in a daycare or with sitters), plus sometimes you can add your monthly anual vacation to it. Healthcare is basically free and daycare is not extremely expensive. Yet it's one of he countries with lower birth rates. It's a mix of finances (expensive housing, low salaries) and people just wishing to have very long youth time. Many people at 30-35 years old say they are still young to be parents. And many young people just say they don't want children at all... Older generations had children because it was "the right way", no matter if they really wanted to be parents. It's a very important mental change IMO.

[Sullie06]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:58 PM, Alisamer said:

That third child also adds just a little bit of extra complication to tons of little things over time. I'm the oldest of three kids.

Two kids are fine in a regular car. Three? Somebody's stuck in the middle and they are always touching each other and if you're driving any length of time it's going to drive you - and them - bananas. Five people at a restaurant? Either someone's stuck out in the walkway or you've got to wait for a bigger table. Five people at an amusement park? Many rides only accommodate 2 at a time, and if all 3 kids want a parent to ride with them on something potentially scary, things get complicated. Somebody's going to be stuck riding alone. Two kids can share a bed in a hotel room if you need them to. Three? You might need to request a cot or pick a room with a sofa bed to make that comfortably work. Participating in something where a kid needs to be accompanied one on one with an adult? Either somebody doesn't go or you have to get a friend or family member to go with you. Kids arguing? Don't be surprised if two gang up on the other one. 

Like, there's nothing wrong with having three kids. And there are probably some advantages, too. But as the oldest of three kids? I'd have only wanted 2, maximum. My parents did a pretty good job, I think, but still. I had a whole childhood of having to walk while the other 2 were in strollers, having to ride roller coasters alone, being stuck seated between the other 2 in the car if they were arguing, fighting over the window seat, getting outvoted in choosing activities and such, etc. I had the good things too, of course, they were closer in age to each other so I got my own room, I got new clothes more often while they got hand-me-downs, etc. but there were enough minor annoyances involved that I personally would rather have had just 2. Largely for my own sanity! 

I'm honestly kind of surprised Jill has had more kids after the first 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger only ever has the 2. 

Also the oldest of 3 and I agree with this. I told my hubby we needed to have an even number so it was 2 or 4 for us. We decided on 2. My brother (the youngest) is 8 years younger than me so luckily it was easier for our parents because my sister and I were teenagers when he was in elementary school. But I always felt bad because he said he felt like he grew up like an only child while my sister and I had each other. 

[nolongerIFBx]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think our country is doing this to their own people and then say, “why is everyone having less kids?!?” If a country makes it very hard to even have kids in general, let alone more than 2, then of course people will start having less and less children. Our country is so behind when it comes to taking care of parents. First of all, maternity leave and paternity leave are a complete joke. We are one of the richest countries and yet we have one of the worst maternity leaves in all of the world. You are lucky if you get more than 6 weeks. And paternity leave is almost non existent. Then there’s health care. It’s fucking expensive to give birth in a hospital even if you have insurance! I don’t even want to think about the cost of NICU stays or complications. You could be bankrupt just for having a baby and having complications. Then there’s the ridiculously high cost of child care. I don’t know how people are supposed to afford childcare when childcare costs have gone way up and our wages haven’t. Maybe people could afford childcare in the 80s because they were paid enough to cover the cost. But nowadays, if you have more than one kid in childcare, you may as well just stay home because your paycheck may not even cover the cost of 2 kids in daycare. And I didn’t even touch on housing costs in some cities. It’s insanely high in larger cities and people don’t want to live in a one bedroom apartment with 2 kids. So it’s out to the suburbs! Which means they must have a car and lots of gas money to drive everywhere since it’s all spread out and they have a big commute to work now. 
 

Basically all this to say, yes, people are having less kids but our government can absolutely do something about it. But they don’t. And I don’t see much happening in the future either. 

Finances is a huge part of it. I also think we've harped on overpopulation (because contrary to Jim Boob, Jacksonville CAN'T accommodate 7 billion people) and many feel it is irresponsible to produce more than 2 children (their replacements).

[Sullie06]

10 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I feel like 3 kids is the new 4. In the 90s I saw a lot more 4 kid families, now I don’t know anyone who has more than 3 (with the exception of my pastor who is up to 13 including fosters) 

A friend of my husband and his wife have 5 children, between 3-10 years old. I really believe she enjoys being pregnant and not having to work.

Now that they are done having kids and she's had to return to work and pay for these kids she's always complaining about how expensive things are. When our daughter made competition dance and our husbands were talking about how expensive it is she said to me with total attitude "at least your daughter can do dance. Both of ours want to but we can't afford it, so we constantly have to break their hearts." Well with all do respect, you chose to have 5 kids.  

[CanadianMamam]

13 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I feel like 3 kids is the new 4. In the 90s I saw a lot more 4 kid families, now I don’t know anyone who has more than 3 (with the exception of my pastor who is up to 13 including fosters) 

Funny, I feel the opposite. Everyone I knew growing up seemed to be one of 3 but that was pretty much the max. Now I know a lot of people with 4 or 5 and very few with less than 3 but I am also not American and I think maternity leave and not paying for healthcare definitely factor into it. 
 

A friend of mine went camping recently adn commented that she didn’t realize how many people have 4 kids and that she used to feel special but now it just feels normal 😂 

[Gobsmacked]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:58 PM, Alisamer said:

That third child also adds just a little bit of extra complication to tons of little things over time. I'm the oldest of three kids.

Two kids are fine in a regular car. Three? Somebody's stuck in the middle and they are always touching each other and if you're driving any length of time it's going to drive you - and them - bananas. Five people at a restaurant? Either someone's stuck out in the walkway or you've got to wait for a bigger table. Five people at an amusement park? Many rides only accommodate 2 at a time, and if all 3 kids want a parent to ride with them on something potentially scary, things get complicated. Somebody's going to be stuck riding alone. Two kids can share a bed in a hotel room if you need them to. Three? You might need to request a cot or pick a room with a sofa bed to make that comfortably work. Participating in something where a kid needs to be accompanied one on one with an adult? Either somebody doesn't go or you have to get a friend or family member to go with you. Kids arguing? Don't be surprised if two gang up on the other one. 

Like, there's nothing wrong with having three kids. And there are probably some advantages, too. But as the oldest of three kids? I'd have only wanted 2, maximum. My parents did a pretty good job, I think, but still. I had a whole childhood of having to walk while the other 2 were in strollers, having to ride roller coasters alone, being stuck seated between the other 2 in the car if they were arguing, fighting over the window seat, getting outvoted in choosing activities and such, etc. I had the good things too, of course, they were closer in age to each other so I got my own room, I got new clothes more often while they got hand-me-downs, etc. but there were enough minor annoyances involved that I personally would rather have had just 2. Largely for my own sanity! 

I'm honestly kind of surprised Jill has had more kids after the first 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger only ever has the 2. 

I agree as the eldest of three. Hubby is an only so wanted more than one.  I explained why an odd number of kids just doesn’t work therefore either 2 or 4. 
we had two, eldest has medical problems so we are glad that no more were possible. Saved us from having to worry about a third. Having said that when a mum from playgroup had twin Girls after her two boys had begun school I did feel a twinge of jealousy. One look at her knackered face a few days after their birth soon sent me back to reality! All kids  are now n their late 20’s/early 30’s. Seems like yesterday though. 

[SassyPants]

38 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

I agree as the eldest of three. Hubby is an only so wanted more than one.  I explained why an odd number of kids just doesn’t work therefore either 2 or 4. 
we had two, eldest has medical problems so we are glad that no more were possible. Saved us from having to worry about a third. Having said that when a mum from playgroup had twin Girls after her two boys had begun school I did feel a twinge of jealousy. One look at her knackered face a few days after their birth soon sent me back to reality! All kids  are now n their late 20’s/early 30’s. Seems like yesterday though. 

My kids are in their 30s. One of my co workers had twin boys and wanted to have that 1 baby experience, so when the boys were in kindergarten they got pregnant. Yep, twin girls. 2 spontaneously occurring sets of twins. The boys, who are in their late 30s, are fraternal and the girls are identical. We all felt so sorry for her. Her husband was really happy as a family of 4, but my friend wanted that 3rd one. They were the perfect family for this. All very calm and very established- the boys are doctors and the girls NPs.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

My kids are in their 30s. One of my co workers had twin boys and wanted to have that 1 baby experience, so when the boys were in kindergarten they got pregnant. Yep, twin girls. 2 spontaneously occurring sets of twins. The boys, who are in their late 30s, are fraternal and the girls are identical. We all felt so sorry for her. Her husband was really happy as a family of 4, but my friend wanted that 3rd one. They were the perfect family for this. All very calm and very established- the boys are doctors and the girls NPs.

There’s actually a family in my neighborhood that had two sets of twins in a row and still tried for a fifth!  Boy were they tempting fate! But they finally had a singleton. That 5th must’ve seemed easy as can be.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I got tubal ligation recently. I would have loved being a mom and done an excellent job but with my mental health being so bad, the cost of raising kids, and the SCOTUS saying they’re going after birth control next it seemed a good idea. 
 

It’s noteworthy that none of my siblings want to have kids, probably due to our traumatic childhoods. 

[OldFadedStar]

20 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

oh do you know what you are having lol other than 2 babies of course 

are they fraternal, identical ?

Here I am waving my weird fascination with twins flags 

Congrats BTW.

The same thing happened to my friend they wanted two and bam second pregnancy identical girls 

Are you finding this pregnancy much different than your singleton?

Feel free not to answer, I get that they are personal questions

 

I have no problem answering these! I'm having fraternal boy/girl twins. And to be totally honest, as a whole I am finding this pregnancy smoother than my last one. My belly is just exponentially growing at this point and I'm finding the end of pregnancy to be a bit more of a struggle to do normal life. I'm 35 weeks tomorrow and know that these next few weeks are gonna be a STRUGGLEEEE as the babies are growing half a pound each.. so I'm adding 1 pound of baby to my belly every single week. But up to this point and hitting the mental "Im so over being pregnant" earlier than I did with my daughter, everything's been great. 

We are scheduling an induction for 38 weeks (full term for twins) if they dont come before then. Most twins come during the 36th week 


And on a different topic ish, paternity leave in America is complete crap. Luckily my husband gets 6 weeks off and they are letting him remote in to work during these last few weeks of my pregnancy, but I read in my due date groups about men who only can get off for the physical birth or MAYBEEEEE a week or two. And even then, there are some dads who are able to get more time off but they fear taking it because their bosses have already voiced disdain for how long they are taking off so the dads aren't taking all of their approved time off in fear of their careers. 

[lumpentheologie]

9 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think our country is doing this to their own people and then say, “why is everyone having less kids?!?” If a country makes it very hard to even have kids in general, let alone more than 2, then of course people will start having less and less children. Our country is so behind when it comes to taking care of parents. First of all, maternity leave and paternity leave are a complete joke. We are one of the richest countries and yet we have one of the worst maternity leaves in all of the world. You are lucky if you get more than 6 weeks. And paternity leave is almost non existent. Then there’s health care. It’s fucking expensive to give birth in a hospital even if you have insurance! I don’t even want to think about the cost of NICU stays or complications. You could be bankrupt just for having a baby and having complications. Then there’s the ridiculously high cost of child care. I don’t know how people are supposed to afford childcare when childcare costs have gone way up and our wages haven’t. Maybe people could afford childcare in the 80s because they were paid enough to cover the cost. But nowadays, if you have more than one kid in childcare, you may as well just stay home because your paycheck may not even cover the cost of 2 kids in daycare. And I didn’t even touch on housing costs in some cities. It’s insanely high in larger cities and people don’t want to live in a one bedroom apartment with 2 kids. So it’s out to the suburbs! Which means they must have a car and lots of gas money to drive everywhere since it’s all spread out and they have a big commute to work now. 
 

Basically all this to say, yes, people are having less kids but our government can absolutely do something about it. But they don’t. And I don’t see much happening in the future either. 

This is exactly why most of my friends don’t have kids, and the ones who do stopped with 1. Especially if you really want to stay in a city, children are expensive as hell in the US. 

[FiveAcres]

10 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

This is exactly why most of my friends don’t have kids, and the ones who do stopped with 1. Especially if you really want to stay in a city, children are expensive as hell in the US. 

And it's hard to find good jobs in rural areas.