Seewalds 48: Homophobia Now Mixed With Hypocrisy

[Coconut Flan]

37 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Three is a lot harder and more expensive in LA than it is in Northwest Arkansas. 

Tell me about it.  My next door neighbors wanted one more and got twins.  The poor guy is working all the overtime he can get while the in-laws are helping his wife with the kids.  I think they were hoping for another boy so they could reuse a lot of things and instead got two girls, a larger vehicle, double everything, and I'm guessing extra hospital bills.  

[xenobia]

14 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

anyone got some screenshots?

I honestly stole this from Reddit:

[SassyPants]

I wonder if JB’s 50 page questionnaire delves into having as many children as possible? Or asks opinions about limiting family size by using BC? If so, did JV and DD answer truthfully? Did the couples discuss this during their courtships, and if so, were the conversations truthful?

[CanadianMamam]

20 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder if JB’s 50 page questionnaire delves into having as many children as possible? Or asks opinions about limiting family size by using BC? If so, did JV and DD answer truthfully? Did the couples discuss this during their courtships, and if so, were the conversations truthful?

I a:not sure about Jeremy and Jinger, but I think Jill and Derek did intend to have a large family and then reality set in. Complicated deliveries, huge medical bills, financial betrayal by her father. I think they got a huge reality check. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

50 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder if JB’s 50 page questionnaire delves into having as many children as possible? Or asks opinions about limiting family size by using BC? If so, did JV and DD answer truthfully? Did the couples discuss this during their courtships, and if so, were the conversations truthful?

I think unmarried people with zero kids tend to underestimate how much work and cost go into kids. And they can easily assume they will have as many kids as god wants. Then reality hits. They have 2 kids 2 and under and are drowning. Things change. And JB can’t do anything about that. Because he can’t know for sure if they are using birth control or dealing with infertility. Unless he asks. Which is rude. But who knows. He’s a rude guy.

Edited August 15, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[HumbleJillyMuffin]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder if JB’s 50 page questionnaire delves into having as many children as possible? Or asks opinions about limiting family size by using BC? If so, did JV and DD answer truthfully? Did the couples discuss this during their courtships, and if so, were the conversations truthful?

Are you kidding? The "having as many children as God gives us" deal is the backbone of this family's "popularity". It's what separates them from others. I'd be willing to bet there are many questions on the "Court My Daughter" application about this very topic. It's a biggie, right up there with if they believe in Jesus. 

And yes, it's much easier to be all "as many kids as God gives us" when you are single and have no idea what it really takes to be a parent and spouse. 

[Alisamer]

13 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Three is a lot harder and more expensive in LA than it is in Northwest Arkansas. 

That third child also adds just a little bit of extra complication to tons of little things over time. I'm the oldest of three kids.

Two kids are fine in a regular car. Three? Somebody's stuck in the middle and they are always touching each other and if you're driving any length of time it's going to drive you - and them - bananas. Five people at a restaurant? Either someone's stuck out in the walkway or you've got to wait for a bigger table. Five people at an amusement park? Many rides only accommodate 2 at a time, and if all 3 kids want a parent to ride with them on something potentially scary, things get complicated. Somebody's going to be stuck riding alone. Two kids can share a bed in a hotel room if you need them to. Three? You might need to request a cot or pick a room with a sofa bed to make that comfortably work. Participating in something where a kid needs to be accompanied one on one with an adult? Either somebody doesn't go or you have to get a friend or family member to go with you. Kids arguing? Don't be surprised if two gang up on the other one. 

Like, there's nothing wrong with having three kids. And there are probably some advantages, too. But as the oldest of three kids? I'd have only wanted 2, maximum. My parents did a pretty good job, I think, but still. I had a whole childhood of having to walk while the other 2 were in strollers, having to ride roller coasters alone, being stuck seated between the other 2 in the car if they were arguing, fighting over the window seat, getting outvoted in choosing activities and such, etc. I had the good things too, of course, they were closer in age to each other so I got my own room, I got new clothes more often while they got hand-me-downs, etc. but there were enough minor annoyances involved that I personally would rather have had just 2. Largely for my own sanity! 

I'm honestly kind of surprised Jill has had more kids after the first 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger only ever has the 2. 

[justmy2cents]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder if JB’s 50 page questionnaire delves into having as many children as possible? Or asks opinions about limiting family size by using BC? If so, did JV and DD answer truthfully? Did the couples discuss this during their courtships, and if so, were the conversations truthful?

I can see Jeremy answering that with ‘I’ll defer to Jinger on this’ and JB assuming that Jinger would want as many as possible. Didn’t Jeremy say in their book that he waited for Jinger to say when she was ready?

[Meggo]

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

That third child also adds just a little bit of extra complication to tons of little things over time. I'm the oldest of three kids.

Two kids are fine in a regular car. Three? Somebody's stuck in the middle and they are always touching each other and if you're driving any length of time it's going to drive you - and them - bananas. Five people at a restaurant? Either someone's stuck out in the walkway or you've got to wait for a bigger table. Five people at an amusement park? Many rides only accommodate 2 at a time, and if all 3 kids want a parent to ride with them on something potentially scary, things get complicated. Somebody's going to be stuck riding alone. Two kids can share a bed in a hotel room if you need them to. Three? You might need to request a cot or pick a room with a sofa bed to make that comfortably work. Participating in something where a kid needs to be accompanied one on one with an adult? Either somebody doesn't go or you have to get a friend or family member to go with you. Kids arguing? Don't be surprised if two gang up on the other one. 

Like, there's nothing wrong with having three kids. And there are probably some advantages, too. But as the oldest of three kids? I'd have only wanted 2, maximum. My parents did a pretty good job, I think, but still. I had a whole childhood of having to walk while the other 2 were in strollers, having to ride roller coasters alone, being stuck seated between the other 2 in the car if they were arguing, fighting over the window seat, getting outvoted in choosing activities and such, etc. I had the good things too, of course, they were closer in age to each other so I got my own room, I got new clothes more often while they got hand-me-downs, etc. but there were enough minor annoyances involved that I personally would rather have had just 2. Largely for my own sanity! 

I'm honestly kind of surprised Jill has had more kids after the first 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger only ever has the 2. 

I am the third and was the one who seemed to be tacked on as an afterthought- stuck in the middle (small legs) or stuck in the back of the mini station wagon with the dog (it was the 70s). Sleeping on the floor- or the year we lived at my grandparents- an old camping cot.

BUT I have one sister I adore and one I tolerate. Those two do NOT get along (the oldest is a piece of work). So having an extra means that we have a back up.

I wanted two but my body had other plans and we adopted one. 

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

12 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

I can see Jeremy answering that with ‘I’ll defer to Jinger on this’ and JB assuming that Jinger would want as many as possible. Didn’t Jeremy say in their book that he waited for Jinger to say when she was ready?

I didn’t read Jinger’s book but if Jeremy did say that it’s very sweet, especially in their world. 

[Jackie3]

13 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I didn’t read Jinger’s book but if Jeremy did say that it’s very sweet, especially in their world. 

We set the bar for men very low, don't we? I don't think Jeremy's "sweet" because he waited till Jinger was ready to bring a child into the world.  No one would consider that sweet in the secular world, it's expected!

[Tdoc72]

14 hours ago, Alisamer said:

That third child also adds just a little bit of extra complication to tons of little things over time. I'm the oldest of three kids.

Two kids are fine in a regular car. Three? Somebody's stuck in the middle and they are always touching each other and if you're driving any length of time it's going to drive you - and them - bananas. Five people at a restaurant? Either someone's stuck out in the walkway or you've got to wait for a bigger table. Five people at an amusement park? Many rides only accommodate 2 at a time, and if all 3 kids want a parent to ride with them on something potentially scary, things get complicated. Somebody's going to be stuck riding alone. Two kids can share a bed in a hotel room if you need them to. Three? You might need to request a cot or pick a room with a sofa bed to make that comfortably work. Participating in something where a kid needs to be accompanied one on one with an adult? Either somebody doesn't go or you have to get a friend or family member to go with you. Kids arguing? Don't be surprised if two gang up on the other one. 

Like, there's nothing wrong with having three kids. And there are probably some advantages, too. But as the oldest of three kids? I'd have only wanted 2, maximum. My parents did a pretty good job, I think, but still. I had a whole childhood of having to walk while the other 2 were in strollers, having to ride roller coasters alone, being stuck seated between the other 2 in the car if they were arguing, fighting over the window seat, getting outvoted in choosing activities and such, etc. I had the good things too, of course, they were closer in age to each other so I got my own room, I got new clothes more often while they got hand-me-downs, etc. but there were enough minor annoyances involved that I personally would rather have had just 2. Largely for my own sanity! 

I'm honestly kind of surprised Jill has had more kids after the first 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger only ever has the 2. 

I have 3 (mostly grown now) kids.  I used to always say the world was a very 4 family member place.  

You make good points—pro & con.  Not sure why I wanted three.  I just knew after my second girl that our family didn’t feel complete.  3rd girl & our family felt finished.  Although the amount of time we were asked if we would go for that boy (or if we were disappointed the 3rd was a girl) was bizarrely rude.  No, neither of us cared about that.  

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tdoc72

[medimus]

14 hours ago, Alisamer said:

That third child also adds just a little bit of extra complication to tons of little things over time. I'm the oldest of three kids.

Two kids are fine in a regular car. Three? Somebody's stuck in the middle and they are always touching each other and if you're driving any length of time it's going to drive you - and them - bananas. Five people at a restaurant? Either someone's stuck out in the walkway or you've got to wait for a bigger table. Five people at an amusement park? Many rides only accommodate 2 at a time, and if all 3 kids want a parent to ride with them on something potentially scary, things get complicated. Somebody's going to be stuck riding alone. Two kids can share a bed in a hotel room if you need them to. Three? You might need to request a cot or pick a room with a sofa bed to make that comfortably work. Participating in something where a kid needs to be accompanied one on one with an adult? Either somebody doesn't go or you have to get a friend or family member to go with you. Kids arguing? Don't be surprised if two gang up on the other one. 

Like, there's nothing wrong with having three kids. And there are probably some advantages, too. But as the oldest of three kids? I'd have only wanted 2, maximum. My parents did a pretty good job, I think, but still. I had a whole childhood of having to walk while the other 2 were in strollers, having to ride roller coasters alone, being stuck seated between the other 2 in the car if they were arguing, fighting over the window seat, getting outvoted in choosing activities and such, etc. I had the good things too, of course, they were closer in age to each other so I got my own room, I got new clothes more often while they got hand-me-downs, etc. but there were enough minor annoyances involved that I personally would rather have had just 2. Largely for my own sanity! 

I'm honestly kind of surprised Jill has had more kids after the first 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Jinger only ever has the 2. 

 

10 hours ago, Meggo said:

I am the third and was the one who seemed to be tacked on as an afterthought- stuck in the middle (small legs) or stuck in the back of the mini station wagon with the dog (it was the 70s). Sleeping on the floor- or the year we lived at my grandparents- an old camping cot.

BUT I have one sister I adore and one I tolerate. Those two do NOT get along (the oldest is a piece of work). So having an extra means that we have a back up.

I wanted two but my body had other plans and we adopted one. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Tdoc72 said:

I have 3 (mostly grown now) kids.  I used to always say the world was a very 4 family member place.  

You make good points—pro & con.  Not sure why I wanted three.  I just knew after my second girl that our family didn’t feel complete.  3rd girl & our family felt finished.  Although the amount of time we were asked if we would go for that boy (or if we were disappointed the 3rd was a girl) was bizarrely rude.  No, neither of us cared about that.  

Funny, I am the oldest of three and would quite like three. It's interesting what effects you: we had minivan, so never had that middle seat thing, we didn't go to theme parks, we didn't stay in hotels either (on holiday we always rented self catering accomodation), my younger sisters did have all the hand me downs, but so did I really, just not from sibling, from older family and friends. My grandmother used to like buying us matching outfits, which was cute, but meant my youngest sister had the same outfit in her wardrobe for years as we had the same thing in three sizes 😂.

I wonder if part of what makes it work or not (apart from personalities) is the age difference? There is almost three years between each of us, so it was perfectly feasible for one parent to take one of us somewhere while the others stayed at home and my parents did try to do that so we all got lots of one on one time. 

[Alisamer]

6 hours ago, medimus said:

I wonder if part of what makes it work or not (apart from personalities) is the age difference? There is almost three years between each of us, so it was perfectly feasible for one parent to take one of us somewhere while the others stayed at home and my parents did try to do that so we all got lots of one on one time. 

That's entirely possible. I'm nearly 3 years older than the next one, then the younger two are 13 months apart. So once I started Junior High we were never in the same school, we were always in different age groups in Girl Scouts and other activities, etc. We also had completely different tastes in basically everything especially music, different interests, etc. - while theirs were similar to each other. It didn't help that mom HATED my tastes and still does, so if both of them wanted to see New Kids On The Block I'd get to go with them, but if I wanted to go see Motley Crue it was a total NO. 

I think having one so separate and then the two close together just naturally lead to everything catering more to the younger two, for me. And some of the things you mentioned we did as well - minivan, we often stayed in a camper instead of a hotel, and I did get a few hand-me-downs too from cousins and friends. But there were also things we just didn't do at all, because there were three of us. Too expensive, too hard to keep up with three kids, etc. Combine that with the fact that my mom's interests and preferences line up much more with my younger sisters than with me (she still doesn't really "get" me at all, in many ways), and I felt very much like a spare tire sometimes. Even now it's something that pops up here and there - we are taking a family trip to the beach, and even without my brother-in-law going we have to shell out for the 6 seat golf cart instead of a standard 4 seater. It often takes a little longer to get a table at a restaurant. We need to take 2 cars to comfortably fit everyone and their stuff. We make an effort to accommodate everyone's interests, but I'm still likely to be the odd man out whose idea gets cut if we are tight on time. 

Like, it wasn't bad by any means. I think my childhood was good, and now as adults my sisters and I get along well (although the two youngest have less tolerance for each other) - it's just that even as a child it was clear that the world was set up more for families of 4, and having an extra created additional complications. I personally would not have had the mental or physical bandwidth to deal with that. Some people do, and that's awesome! But I wouldn't have. 

[Baxter]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:39 AM, justmy2cents said:

I can see Jeremy answering that with ‘I’ll defer to Jinger on this’ and JB assuming that Jinger would want as many as possible. Didn’t Jeremy say in their book that he waited for Jinger to say when she was ready?

I could see Jeremy saying that too. After all didn't Jim Bob say that it was up to Michelle to decide if they should have more kids?

[Alisamer]

34 minutes ago, Baxter said:

I could see Jeremy saying that too. After all didn't Jim Bob say that it was up to Michelle to decide if they should have more kids?

I think with Jeremy it was likely more like "there are ways to try and not get pregnant before she's ready" while with Jim Bob it was likely more along the lines of "Well, I'm banging her whenever I want because she has to be joyfully available, but I don't care if it results in a pregnancy or not." Like, it was probably up to Michelle. But forbidden to use birth control of any kind, anti-abortion AND expected to be "joyfully available" at all times means really, nothing was up to Michelle at all. Luckily she was as baby-hungry as he was horny so it worked out for both of them. 

I could see Jeremy encouraging Jinger to track her cycle and being willing to take a "no" during her more fertile times if she wasn't willing to use birth control, and maybe even suggesting condoms. Babies are expensive and cramp your social life, after all. 

[nolongerIFBx]

On 8/15/2023 at 10:36 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think unmarried people with zero kids tend to underestimate how much work and cost go into kids. And they can easily assume they will have as many kids as god wants. Then reality hits. They have 2 kids 2 and under and are drowning. Things change. And JB can’t do anything about that. Because he can’t know for sure if they are using birth control or dealing with infertility. Unless he asks. Which is rude. But who knows. He’s a rude guy.

I didn't know very many fundie families that were Quiverfull but one of my in-law's sister married someone who didn't plan to use BC. I don't know if his family was QF or if it just sounded cool to him. Pregnant on the honeymoon with a fairly easy pregnancy and delivery. 2nd kid (on the heels of #1) was a different story. Sick and in bed much of the pregnancy with a miserable labor. #3 took a little longer to come a long and they seemed to have decided leaving it up to God wasn't so cool as they thought. They did get a surprise #4 at 40, but I do think it was a surprise. Reality plays a huge role in what you really believe!

[Baxter]

@Alisamer I should have been more clear in my comments. I don't actually think that it actually was really up to Michelle. That was just what Jim Bob said or rather it could have been nominally up to her but she felt she always had to be joyfully available so not actually a choice. But it's a good line to use so I could imagine Jeremy using it. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Yeah, Jim Bob isn’t a “her body her choice” kind of guy.

[Zebedee]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:36 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think unmarried people with zero kids tend to underestimate how much work and cost go into kids

I am very happily childfree, which I announced when I was about 3, so over 40 years ago now - and one of the many reasons my (only child) partner and I (youngest of two kids) have maintained this over the last 23 years is that we KNOW it's very hard work and expensive - even with free uni here, and free healthcare in the UK, and never having been parentified. If we really wanted kids, then all that would be a bargain, but as opposed as I am, and indifferent as he is - it's not.

The idea that anyone could believe that kids are cheap and easy, even in the most liberal, socially supportive society, blows my mind. (OK, fundies don't think of healthcare and education costs, so maybe they can make it "cheap", but they also all home"school", how anyone can think that doesn't require lots of work is beyond me. Unless, well, you stick your kids in front of a reused wisdom booklet or a screen and make them grade their own work. OK, think I've answered my own question there.)

Then again, if your role models are people like cheap ass JimBlob and "my kids are my other kids' buddies" Michelle, perhaps it is easy to think that kids and cheap and don't require much effort... It is only a slight exaggeration to say that we have spent more time and money on our friends' kids and my nephews, the oldest being 15, than JB and M have spent on all their 19 kids in their lives. And I'm not sure that we have met 17 kids of friends, what with them being split between 4 continents and all!

[OldFadedStar]

Reading all of this about having three kids is fascinating to me considering I am sitting here 34 weeks pregnant with twins. We are done after three, we wanted two... but when the second pregnancy ends up being twins then guess its three 😛 

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

Reading all of this about having three kids is fascinating to me considering I am sitting here 34 weeks pregnant with twins. We are done after three, we wanted two... but when the second pregnancy ends up being twins then guess its three 😛 

Congrats on your twins! That’s funny. I told everyone with ears that the only way I would ever have 3 children is if I had surprise twins with my second pregnancy. I was so worried about twins that when I went to get my first ultrasound, the only thing I cared about was making sure it was a singleton. I think the ultrasound tech was shocked by my behavior. Because I was ready to leave when she let me know it was just one. I was like, ok imma head on out. She’s like, umm I’m not done. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[Zebedee]

5 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

We are done after three, we wanted two

Congrats on your twins! This has happened to quite a few of my school friends too. Before they had their first, they always really wanted twins - they wanted to get the pregnancy/childbirth/maternity leave etc bits done efficiently. Absolutely none of them ever had twins first time around. Conversely, two of the people I know who wanted only one kid, had twins...

[Alisamer]

8 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

Reading all of this about having three kids is fascinating to me considering I am sitting here 34 weeks pregnant with twins. We are done after three, we wanted two... but when the second pregnancy ends up being twins then guess its three 😛 

Congrats on having twins! Sometimes fate does what it wants, you know? I'm sure you'll make the best of it! Like, none of my concerns or things I didn't like about being one of three was a deal-breaker or anything, you know? There are pros and cons to every family combo. 

(If I could go back in time I think the main thing I'd tell my mom would be to remember the older kid is still a kid, though. I feel like sometimes my mom would forget I still needed to be mommied sometimes when I was basically a kid and the younger ones were still toddlers. Understandable, totally, and somtimes unavoidable. But it's something to remember!)

[viii]

On 8/15/2023 at 9:36 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think unmarried people with zero kids tend to underestimate how much work and cost go into kids. 

I feel like that’s a very condescending thing to say to unmarried, childless people. We're not idiots. We know kids are expensive and hard work. It's why majority of us don't have kids.