Seewalds 48: Homophobia Now Mixed With Hypocrisy

[nelliebelle1197]

What I really wanted to say is that abortion is okay when it is a D&C for Jessa Duggar. But then I figured it would make me too damn mad.

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

Jessa was never going to understand why a D & C is considered abortion and why she was lucky to have straight forward and easy access to one because of the huge "GOTCHA" people are writing about.  Almost nobody says "wow, I see your point" when they feel like hundreds or thousands of people are attacking them online.  To her, it just looks like everyone is mocking her for losing her baby and being religious.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

41 minutes ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Jessa was never going to understand why a D & C is considered abortion and why she was lucky to have straight forward and easy access to one because of the huge "GOTCHA" people are writing about.  Almost nobody says "wow, I see your point" when they feel like hundreds or thousands of people are attacking them online.  To her, it just looks like everyone is mocking her for losing her baby and being religious.

Why should we care about her feelings when other women are endangered by lack of access to the same procedure?!

[AussieKrissy]

5 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Why should we care about her feelings when other women are endangered by lack of access to the same procedure?!

I don't think the original poster is saying that she cares about Jessa's feelings as such, more that they can see why Jessa is reacting the way she is and why people's attacking nature of reaction will not change her way of thinking.

The poster I think is also subtly pointing out that the difference between Jessa and most people is that a lot of people have the ability to put themselves in others shoes. Jessa in this case has proven that she can not.

To be fair I don't know at this point if this didn't open her mind if anything will, people attacking or nicely explaining or not.

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

You don't have to care about her feelings and I was definitely not trying to suggest anyone needs to.  I care about them as a fellow mom who has had a miscarriage, because that's just who I am at this point in my life but I'm not deluding myself that she'd have any care for me and the sinful life I lead.  I just mean this isn't the way to reach people like her and change their minds.  The religious right has persecution complexes on top of the fact that just about anyone would shut down in a emotional situation with a big backlash like this.

I absolutely believe a woman's reproductive decisions should be between her and her doctor (and good for Jessa for following her doctor's advice), not between her, her doctor, and some lawmakers.  As such, it doesn't matter if I wanna have an abortion every 6 months or never ever ever... I think the option for safe care should be available if fetuses have a heartbeat or not.  I have enough to worry about in my own life without getting in everyone else's uterus.

[Anna Bolinas]

It's just frustrating because seemingly nothing gets through to them. Not lived experiences, not research, not aggressive arguments, not even meeting them on their own ground--because surely some of the comments made about Jessa's experience, including ones made on this site, pointed out that some of the pro-life laws can limit the ability of pregnant women to access life-saving D&Cs. Even if you want to throw out the word "abortion," even if you want to agree with her that her very much wanted baby was 100% certifiably dead in her womb, she needs to realize that those pro-life laws could criminalize her actions. But she won't, because even the most logical, most accommodating argument doesn't matter if the person making it is a godless baby-killer.

Or maybe I'm just cynical.

[Cam]

One part of the problem is that male politicians are using the controversy as a power grab and it has nothing whatsoever to do about saving the lives of anyone.  These politicians are not medical professionals. They are not women. Yet they throw their weight behind legislation that restricts medical procedures that they really no clue about, that will never affect their own bodies. I am quite sick of a society that believes men know so much more about women’s bodies than women do, a society that prioritizes what men think women should or should not do with their bodies over what women know. We need to work on getting all women to understand that men do not have a greater grasp on women’s reproductive health than women do. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Cam

[nst]

how was she supposed to be naturally get rid of the baby if she didn't have a D&C 

it doesn't expel itself because it's too big? 

[Bastet]

  I wish people hadn’t deliberately confounded the medical and legal definitions of abortion in the wake of jessa’s dnc. It’s entirely understandable that she is upset that she is accused of having an abortion when according to the definition she—and most people—know about, she did not. It feels disingenuous and mean, and that’s important. The right is so often dishonest, and it hurts to give them the opportunity to accuse us of anything close to it. And it’s counterproductive to be unkind to Jessa. We all want her to develop empathy for those she disagrees with, so it behooves us to model it. 
  Offering her examples of women who have been forced to carry dead fetuses, especially if this endangered them, and especially if they live in her state, have a better chance of getting her to identify with women who aren’t getting the health care they need. She has to see them as neighbors who are Ill-served in her community, at least at the beginning. 
  It’s infuriating to have to do this, of course. Isn’t she a Christian? Isn’t honesty and kindness in the Bible (and abortion not mentioned once)? But this isn’t the Christianity she and everyone she knows was raised in. As a woman who had a miscarriage, she deserves our compassion, and she should get it, in my view. Compassion is not something that is earned, and we know it is best learned by seeing it practiced by people you care about, in and out of church. But that didn’t happen for jessa, at least not compassion for those who differ in important ways from her—the kind shown by the Good Samaritan. All she has is us, and though she will probably never come to care what we think, we still should not fuck it up and feed the martyrdom complex of the religious right. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Bastet

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, Cam said:

One part of the problem is that male politicians are using the controversy as a power grab and it has nothing whatsoever to do about saving the lives of anyone.  These politicians are not medical professionals. They are not women. Yet they throw their weight behind legislation that restricts medical procedures that they really no clue about, that will never affect their own bodies. I am quite sick of a society that believes men know so much more about women’s bodies than women do, a society that prioritizes what men think women should or should not do with their bodies over what women know. We need to work on getting all women to understand that men do not have a greater grasp on women’s reproductive health than women do. 

All true, and TBH, I am a woman and my doctor is a woman and you know who gets the absolute final say on any health related matter? ME. I know my body better than anyone else. Now maybe part of my confidence comes from having been an ICU nurse for 35 years, but I override my doctor when I disagree with her plan. And she listens. Politicians? GTFO- they should have zero say. Voters? Again, GTFO their “opinions” should not matter.

[patsymae]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/how-floridas-abortion-ban-is-leaving-one-family-in-agony/2023/02/18/d4429f05-ebc8-4492-b4bb-8b19c58b3c8f_video.html

[Meggo]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

All true, and TBH, I am a woman and my doctor is a woman and you know who gets the absolute final say on any health related matter? ME. I know my body better than anyone else. Now maybe part of my confidence comes from having been an ICU nurse for 35 years, but I override my doctor when I disagree with her plan. And she listens. Politicians? GTFO- they should have zero say. Voters? Again, GTFO their “opinions” should not matter.

Agreed. But I trust my doctor. SHE is the one who went to med school SHE is the one who did her residency. SHE is the one with years of medical experience and SHE is the one who has seen countless problems like whatever I'm facing. So I trust her to counsel me in those decision. Ultimately it's my choice - but I do lean on her for counsel. (and I've been lucky - almost every doctor I've ever had - I've respected. The one I didn't - I left his practice because he was an arse) 
Politicians don't KNOW about health stuff. I don't ask them about my cholestrol levels, about my vision, about the creaking in my knees. WHY would I expect them to know anything about my health? And therefore - THEY should listen to experts about health related matters. 
Wasn't there some jerk who was grilling a doctor on if it was possible to give birth to an owl? (update:Oh worse - he said a breakfast taco) 

Can a Woman Birth a Taco? And Other Questions House Republicans Asked Today About Abortion (jezebel.com)

[Jackie3]

17 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Why should we care about her feelings when other women are endangered by lack of access to the same procedure?!

What's wrong with caring about her feelings? It doesn't change my own opinion. 

According to Jessa, the internet is accusing her of the worst thing in the world--an abortion. This makes her hurt and angry, and causes her to hunker down on her own (inaccurate) definition of abortion.

True, it's just Jessa Duggar, a relatively powerless person. But what of all the pro-lifers who share her views? You have to understand their feelings, because pro-lifers sometimes gain power and make crazy laws. 

Bluebird's statement could easily be turned around, "Who cares about the left when so many babies are dying." Do you want to sound like the right and make the same sort of arguments?

This country is not going to heal, and become more moderate, if we don't understand and care about each other's feelings. "I don't have what I want, so who cares how you feel" -- that attitude never led to anywhere good. 

[AussieKrissy]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

  I wish people hadn’t deliberately confounded the medical and legal definitions of abortion in the wake of jessa’s dnc. It’s entirely understandable that she is upset that she is accused of having an abortion when according to the definition she—and most people—know about, she did not. It feels disingenuous and mean, and that’s important. The right is so often dishonest, and it hurts to give them the opportunity to accuse us of anything close to it. And it’s counterproductive to be unkind to Jessa. We all want her to develop empathy for those she disagrees with, so it behooves us to model it. 
  Offering her examples of women who have been forced to carry dead fetuses, especially if this endangered them, and especially if they live in her state, have a better chance of getting her to identify with women who aren’t getting the health care they need. She has to see them as neighbors who are Ill-served in her community, at least at the beginning. 
  It’s infuriating to have to do this, of course. Isn’t she a Christian? Isn’t honesty and kindness in the Bible (and abortion not mentioned once)? But this isn’t the Christianity she and everyone she knows was raised in. As a woman who had a miscarriage, she deserves our compassion, and she should get it, in my view. Compassion is not something that is earned, and we know it is best learned by seeing it practiced by people you care about, in and out of church. But that didn’t happen for jessa, at least not compassion for those who differ in important ways from her—the kind shown by the Good Samaritan. All she has is us, and though she will probably never come to care what we think, we still should not fuck it up and feed the martyrdom complex of the religious right. 

that's exactly what I wanted to say, you said it so much better than me. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

@Bastet yes!! Thank you for finding words for what I was thinking.  And I have generally found that I rarely regret being kind to someone but I always regret being unkind to them.  I can't control her beliefs or actions, but I can do my best to be a good example of my beliefs.

8 hours ago, Meggo said:

Wasn't there some jerk who was grilling a doctor on if it was possible to give birth to an owl? (update:Oh worse - he said a breakfast taco)

Okay, I hate to disillusion this jerk about women because he may be one of those who don't believe that we poop... but yes, it's possible because I've known a lot of people who had food babies after eating tacos.

[marmalade]

Jessa made an abortion convert on MSNBC. The host flat out said that she got the procedure she wanted because her name was Duggar. 

Jessa doesn't seem to see the irony that she made a choice, choice denied to most other women in her state. 

[Bastet]

What jessa needs is evidence that someone in her state was denied what she got: a dnc when the fetus no longer had a heartbeat and waiting risked the life or health of the mother. She was treated in accordance with Arkansas law, and she has no reason to believe there are women in her situation who weren’t unless she is provided with an example that proves her wrong. We know that given the ambiguities of the law and complexity of pregnancies gone wrong, some doctor will be afraid to provide a dnc that even jessa will agree is appropriate. She needs to be confronted with how the law coming between a doctor and patient can damage the welfare of women. This is important. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

 

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

I wish people hadn’t deliberately confounded the medical and legal definitions of abortion in the wake of jessa’s dnc. It’s entirely understandable that she is upset that she is accused of having an abortion when according to the definition she—and most people—know about, she did not. It feels disingenuous and mean, and that’s important. The right is so often dishonest, and it hurts to give them the opportunity to accuse us of anything close to it. And it’s counterproductive to be unkind to Jessa. We all want her to develop empathy for those she disagrees with, so it behooves us to model it. 

No, it's important to call that this procedure what it is and point out how other women are endangered by not having access to the same procedure. Failure to do this endangers other women. Women who are poor, faceless, and maybe women of color. Not rich white housewives like Jessa. 

I'm glad Jessa had the procedure and is still alive, but I'm also glad people are speaking out about other womens' lack of access to a procedure now deemed abortion. We need to keep telling the truth or speaking out or nothing will change.

[JDuggs]

56 minutes ago, marmalade said:

Jessa made an abortion convert on MSNBC. The host flat out said that she got the procedure she wanted because her name was Duggar. 

Jessa doesn't seem to see the irony that she made a choice, choice denied to most other women in her state. 

Maybe I’m naive, but I honestly don’t believe this is true. I believe that most doctors want to do what’s best for their patients, but have to make their decisions based on unclear laws. Why would a doctor choose to perform a potentially illegal d&c on such a high profile patient? If there was no fetal cardiac activity, it seems like a d&c would be appropriate. I think the grayer area is when the fetus is incompatible with life, but still has fetal cardiac activity. I realize nothing is 100%, but I don’t think Jessa received special treatment because she is high profile or white, etc.

[Bastet]

  It doesn’t help the pro choice cause  to midstream adopt the medical use of the word “abortion” when that isn’t the common non medical usage. It feels like a trick. “See—abortion can mean a miscarriage so there is no difference between an elective abortion, a dnc with a dead fetus, and a completed miscarriage. Ha, ha!” They are different, even to me, a firmly pro choice woman.  Claiming  otherwise does not advance the pro choice argument, but it does undercut our claim to integrity. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Bastet

[Bluebirdbluebell]

17 minutes ago, Bastet said:

  It doesn’t help the pro choice cause  to midstream adopt the medical use of the word “abortion” when that isn’t the common non medical usage. It feels like a trick. “See—abortion can mean a miscarriage so there is no difference between an elective abortion, a dnc with a dead fetus, and a completed miscarriage. Ha, ha!” They are different, even to me, a firmly pro choice woman.  Claiming  otherwise does not advance the pro choice argument, but it does undercut our claim to integrity. 

There are more possiblities than ones you listed: medical-necessity abortion, etc. There is a wide spectrum of things that can happen during a pregnancy. This started because Roe was repealed and Texas's anti-abortion laws have left women unable to get DNCs. The law isn't making distinctions, which is why other people aren't making distinctions.

[Bastet]

7 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

There are more possiblities than ones you listed: medical-necessity abortion, etc. There is a wide spectrum of things that can happen during a pregnancy. This started because Roe was repealed and Texas's anti-abortion laws have left women unable to get DNCs. The law isn't making distinctions, which is why other people aren't making distinctions.

So we are going to be inhumane because they are? Bad strategically, bad ethically and overall not a good look. 

[viii]

This entire situation gives me the ick. Too many people are gleeful about this. 

[Nothing if not critical]

I am definitely not gleeful about any of this. In fact, on a personal level, I really feel for Jessa, especially since I've been through the exact same thing myself - no heartbeat at the 12-week appointment, baby had stopped growing at ten weeks, had to have a D&C. It's devastating to lose a wanted baby this way and I feel sorry for her.

That said, it's hard to overlook that she belongs to a group of people trying to pass laws that can make it harder for other women in her situation (or similar ones) to get proper medical care. Other women are needlessly suffering because of this group's extreme focus on "ending abortion". I agree that Jessa's mind won't be changed by pointing out that she had "technically an abortion", just because it's the correct medical term. It will just feed into her persecution complex.

But to be quite honest, nothing we've seen from Jessa so far makes me think she'd consider changing her stance anyway, no matter what happened to her and how you frame it. She's so deep in the kool-aid that even if you found a woman in her exact same position that had been denied care because of the SC decision, she'd find a way to twist the facts. Just my opinion, obviously, and maybe I'm too pessimistic. But Jessa in particular strikes me as one of the least likely candidates to be swayed by rational arguments.

[Sullie06]

And this is why the government has no right to limit women's reproductive rights and access to medical procedures. There are zero laws that limit males access to medical procedures and that says so much. 

Going back and forth about if Jessa Duggar Seewald "technically" had an "abortion" is just more smoke coming off this growing fire. While I feel for her genuinely at the loss of her baby (I've loss 3 myself at 6wks, 9wks and 13wks and had two D&Cs) I also believe she revealed this information to stir the pot. I honestly feel she wanted have people push the "abortion" card in her direction so she could voice her agenda. She could have kept this information to herself and her family and she didn't have to share she had a D&C. The whole two part video reveal was odd and IMO in bad taste. 

It's tragic women are being denied access to procedures like D&Cs and medical professionals are having to make the decision between patient safety and wants vs. their license and in some cases criminal record. I've had 5 D&C's myself, only two were the result of a miscarriage. The other 3 were for routine GYN issues and I will likely be having another one in the next year or so. It's that or a Hysterectomy at this point for me and I'm not ready for that yet. Thankfully I live in a state that I can still safely have medical procedures without risk to me or my doctors license and reputation. And it's sad that in the USA in 2023, this is a concern for so many women. So respectfully, Fuck Jessa and anyone who shares her belief that the government has a right to meddle in women's reproductive rights.