Seewalds 48: Homophobia Now Mixed With Hypocrisy

[JDuggs]

I think Jessa’s line for permitting a d&c is fetal cardiac activity. If she was told her fetus would likely die in utero or hours after birth, I think Jessa would have wanted to continue her pregnancy and would also believe that all women should be forced to do the same. Jessa received proper medical care for her situation as do most women in similar circumstances. The problem is that not all women receive this treatment. I just read an article about a woman being sent home from the hospital being told that bleeding from a miscarriage is routine and no further care would be provided, only to pass out from blood loss hours later, prompting the care that should have been received earlier.

There are so many nuances to pregnancy and miscarriage that it is finally being brought to everyone’s attention how these anti abortion laws are not clear enough for medical professionals to do their jobs effectively. That’s why this issue shouldn’t be legislated. This should always be a decision between a woman and her doctor.

[FiveAcres]

1 hour ago, JDuggs said:

I think Jessa’s line for permitting a d&c is fetal cardiac activity. If she was told her fetus would likely die in utero or hours after birth, I think Jessa would have wanted to continue her pregnancy and would also believe that all women should be forced to do the same. Jessa received proper medical care for her situation as do most women in similar circumstances. The problem is that not all women receive this treatment. I just read an article about a woman being sent home from the hospital being told that bleeding from a miscarriage is routine and no further care would be provided, only to pass out from blood loss hours later, prompting the care that should have been received earlier.

There are so many nuances to pregnancy and miscarriage that it is finally being brought to everyone’s attention how these anti abortion laws are not clear enough for medical professionals to do their jobs effectively. That’s why this issue shouldn’t be legislated. This should always be a decision between a woman and her doctor.

I wonder if something similar happened with JillRod in her purported recent miscarriage, since she mentioned multiple trips to the ER. First trip for bleeding: was she sent home after being told it was a miscarriage without being offered a D&C? Was she offered one which she declined, before returning to the ER when the bleeding did not stop: Considering she is the queen of TMI, I find it interesting that she provides so few details about the medical treatment she received in her multiple trips. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by FiveAcres
Punctuation: It's important!

[JDuggs]

11 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

I wonder if something similar happened with JillRod in her purported recent miscarriage, since she mentioned multiple trips to the ER. First trip for bleeding: was she sent home after being told it was a miscarriage without being offered a D&C. Was she offered one which she declined, before returning to the ER when the bleeding did not stop. Considering she is the queen of TMI, I find it interesting that she provides so few details about the medical treatment she received in her multiple trips. 

I think that’s a very likely scenario. Jill needed to be 100% sure that the fetus was not going to have a heartbeat. And it was too early to have a heartbeat anyway. I guess she’s vague about the details to let the people not all that concerned about the timeline assume she was farther along.

[JermajestyDuggar]

The term pro-aborts will always get a huge eyeroll from me. I’m pro-choice, thanks. 

[fluffernutter]

There are some good replies in his post, so that's a positive I guess. Although he'll probably weed them out and then limit replies. 🙄

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The term pro-aborts will always get a huge eyeroll from me. I’m pro-choice, thanks. 

They get crap because they spew uneducated and often false information in a very vocal matter. They are activists for their cause; bring their kids to marches and planned parenthood etc.. Add in how they politicize this issue and …She needs to put on her big girl panties and deal with the fallout from her past behaviors. She doesn’t get to spew nonsense and then cry about the consequences of such-

I’m pro choice and it’s not because I am against babies. It’s because choice respects all outcomes. Choice folks (at least the ones I know) are all about letting women decide what they do with their bodies. Pro abortion would be dictating (like the pro-lifers) that all pregnancies end in abortion. If I vocally and publicly advocated for that and then went on to have a baby I’d expect some blowback, and I’d gracefully accept it. I might try to learn something during the process and change my future behaviors. Bet the Seewalds will learn nothing and will change nothing.

[backyard sylph]

Nah, I'm pro pineapple on pizza even though personally indifferent to it. It doesn't mean I think all pizza should have pineapple. I'm pro-abortion because most women I know who've had one have kept it a secret from most other people. They should be able to say they did something they needed to do and it wasn't dirty. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I actually had a D & C but it wasn’t an abortion. I had retained placenta for two months after the birth of my son. But the procedure was similar. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

12 hours ago, Bastet said:

So we are going to be inhumane because they are? Bad strategically, bad ethically and overall not a good look. 

It's easy to side with a famous woman like Jessa against faceless people who don't have her priviledge.What is inhumane is for those people not being able to get medical treatment that is medically neccessary.

[Analytica49]

I just have two comments. Maybe they will be considered irrelevant, or frivolous. And I speak as someone who does not live in the USA.

First, and possibly this is irrelevant: Why are there no doctors willing to do abortions in defiance of the law, in states where it's banned? When abortion was criminalized in my country, there were a surprising number of doctors who very bravely gave abortions to desperate women who would otherwise die, or a girls whose lives or health would be ruined. Is there no protest movement, covertly, whereby people get together to help women?

Second, and this is the frivolous comment, I noticed that in the drawing of the family that was shown to the kids, the "baby" in "Mom's" uterus is wearing a diaper (or some sort of covering). Heaven forbid that genitals, even of a fetus, should ever be displayed.

 

 

[Jinder Roles]

I’m sort of surprised the conversation has exploded across the internet the past couple days. Admittedly I haven’t kept up with all of it. 

I think a lot of the points weren’t meant to be a gotcha but rather an illustration that people are being denied essential healthcare in “gray-area” circumstances because of right-wing extremist law-makers (who the Duggars often support)

I get that some of the comments where insensitive to Jessa, especially going through a loss, but honestly this is a nuance she probably wouldn’t understand anyways. No matter how “gentle” or compassionate folks were in their responses, Jessa will see abortion as a black and white issue. 
 

P.s: Bin’s demands for retraction and apologies for the “slander” about Jessa is absurdly funny. Sir, this is the internet. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Jinder Roles

[Satan'sFortress]

25 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

P.s: Bin’s demands for retraction and apologies for the “slander” about Jessa is absurdly funny. Sir, this is the internet. 

This is where I lose complete sympathy for Jessa. What did she think would happen when she shared the D&C news?  People were hateful to you on social media? Maybe don't post about your D&C on social media. You are not a sheltered 12 year old anymore. You are a grown ass woman whose JOB is social media. And you have more experience than most of dealing with negative backlash from the internets. 

If @FiveAcres intriguing speculation about JRod is true, I'm going to have to award One Smart Point to Jill for at least not broadcasting it.  

[GuineaPigCourtship]

She probably would never consider it an abortion because most people in the general sense consider that concept to be voice after the fetus is deceased.  She probably expected sympathy.

I don't think it's beyond the realm of reasonable to have sympathy for her and her loss and recognize that it is wrong there are women who go through the same loss and don't have as quick and safe a conclusion so they can mourn without further concern for their health.  I don't not want her to have had access, I want everyone to have access!  I've never been a fan of Jessa just like I don't care for any of the Duggars except for maybe Jenny because she had a guinea pig.  The idea that she would ever change her mind because people are against her is so contrary to everything the family has said about her personality that I'm really surprised anyone is surprised.

[Jinder Roles]

I also want to add that the conversation doesn’t have to be based in empathy. An observation can be made and people move on. Relating to others isn’t the only way to respectfully engage. 
 

This isn’t directly related to Jessa but my unpopular opinion is majority of conversations trying to convince “the other side” are a waste of time. Many people aren’t operating in good faith and others just aren’t open. Personally, I’m selective about when and who I give the benefit of the doubt. And these days I’m choosing to disengage more often than not.
 

 

[Cam]

9 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

I also want to add that the conversation doesn’t have to be based in empathy. An observation can be made and people move on. Relating to others isn’t the only way to respectfully engage. 
 

This isn’t directly related to Jessa but my unpopular opinion is majority of conversations trying to convince “the other side” are a waste of time. Many people aren’t operating in good faith and others just aren’t open. Personally, I’m selective about when and who I give the benefit of the doubt. And these days I’m choosing to disengage more often than not.
 

 

Agree with your comment about making an observation. And yep, trying to change another person’s mind is a waste of time and energy.

 

18 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The term pro-aborts will always get a huge eyeroll from me. I’m pro-choice, thanks. 

 

Imo, the term “pro-abortion” is intentionally used by the antiabortion crowd as a means to make it appear that pro-choice advocates are thrilled at the prospects of abortion. They say “pro-abortion” to inflame the situation. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard anti-abortion people refer to the other side as “pro-choice”. They simply won’t phrase it that way because it sounds too soft. They want to paint a picture of large crowds of people insisting women get abortions.

I remember when Hillary was running for president seeing memes of her dressed in doctor’s scrubs looking like she was performing abortions. Trumpers acted like Hillary was a type pf Hitler who was going to put an end to all pregnancies and she’d be leading the charge by doing the procedures herself!

To me, the terms “pro-aborts” or “pro-abortion” are used intentionally to inflame and mislead others on the matter. It is used divisively. Anti-abortioners are not interested in the many nuances surrounding the subject. They merely want to spew their hateful viewpoint and continue politicizing it. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Cam

[Sullie06]

18 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The term pro-aborts will always get a huge eyeroll from me. I’m pro-choice, thanks. 

Well BEN! I demand a public retraction and apology for your disgusting beliefs and the harm those beliefs have caused so many. You go first, I'll wait.......

[Nothing if not critical]

55 minutes ago, Cam said:

Imo, the term “pro-abortion” is intentionally used by the antiabortion crowd as a means to make it appear that pro-choice advocates are thrilled at the prospects of abortion.

Yes, exactly. I also noticed in the comment section of Ben's insta lots of the people who took his side referred to "happily having abortions" or "happily killing a baby". In their world, everyone who is pro choice enjoys killing babies, just for fun, apparently.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I highly identify with the term prochoice because if someone was forced to have an abortion, I would be just as upset as if someone was forced to not have an abortion. They are equally horrible because the choice was taken away from both people. I know someone who was forced to have an abortion and that person was traumatized by it. Just like many women are traumatized because they are forced to carry to term. And then some of those women are further traumatized because they are then coerced into placing that baby for adoption. It’s all about choice for me and it always will be. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[Alisamer]

14 hours ago, Analytica49 said:

I just have two comments. Maybe they will be considered irrelevant, or frivolous. And I speak as someone who does not live in the USA.

First, and possibly this is irrelevant: Why are there no doctors willing to do abortions in defiance of the law, in states where it's banned? When abortion was criminalized in my country, there were a surprising number of doctors who very bravely gave abortions to desperate women who would otherwise die, or a girls whose lives or health would be ruined. Is there no protest movement, covertly, whereby people get together to help women?

Have you seen the movie "Dirty Dancing"? It's set in a time when abortion was illegal in the US. 

How it was then, and how it could very well be again, is that wealthy people have access to abortion relatively easily. A well-paid private doctor willing to say it's a missed miscarriage and prescribe the medications or do a D&C, a quick flight for a "vacation" to a state or country where it is legal, etc. (I read an article once that during that time, anyone who could take a three day weekend and come up with $1000 or so could take a vacation to Tokyo from the west coast of the US - including flights, accommodations, an abortion and a day of sightseeing.)

But for poor people who need abortion care, it's not easy. Back alley abortions like in Dirty Dancing. Coat hangers. Even when it was fully legal, it was more difficult for poor people due to required waiting periods and multiple appointments and other issues that are a struggle if you have no paid time off from work and have to arrange transportation and possibly child care. 

I believe there are organizations that help women in need of abortion care, and there could well be decent doctors working in contravention of the laws - but it's super risky. Like risk your entire career risky, and in some areas it's go to jail risky. So you end up with the doctors willing to do abortion for an affordable price being shady, and the ones who are legit being unwilling to do it if there's even the slightest risk they'll get caught. 

I think politics and religion have no business meddling in what medical care is available to people. If you need a D&C, whether that's for an incomplete miscarriage, retained placenta, unwanted pregnancy, fetus incompatible with life, risk to the mother's health, or any of the other non-pregnancy related reasons someone might have one... you should be able to get one.  Without you or your doctor worrying about whether it qualifies as "legal" or what anyone else might think about it.

[JermajestyDuggar]

33 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Have you seen the movie "Dirty Dancing"? It's set in a time when abortion was illegal in the US. 

How it was then, and how it could very well be again, is that wealthy people have access to abortion relatively easily. A well-paid private doctor willing to say it's a missed miscarriage and prescribe the medications or do a D&C, a quick flight for a "vacation" to a state or country where it is legal, etc. (I read an article once that during that time, anyone who could take a three day weekend and come up with $1000 or so could take a vacation to Tokyo from the west coast of the US - including flights, accommodations, an abortion and a day of sightseeing.)

But for poor people who need abortion care, it's not easy. Back alley abortions like in Dirty Dancing. Coat hangers. Even when it was fully legal, it was more difficult for poor people due to required waiting periods and multiple appointments and other issues that are a struggle if you have no paid time off from work and have to arrange transportation and possibly child care. 

I believe there are organizations that help women in need of abortion care, and there could well be decent doctors working in contravention of the laws - but it's super risky. Like risk your entire career risky, and in some areas it's go to jail risky. So you end up with the doctors willing to do abortion for an affordable price being shady, and the ones who are legit being unwilling to do it if there's even the slightest risk they'll get caught. 

I think politics and religion have no business meddling in what medical care is available to people. If you need a D&C, whether that's for an incomplete miscarriage, retained placenta, unwanted pregnancy, fetus incompatible with life, risk to the mother's health, or any of the other non-pregnancy related reasons someone might have one... you should be able to get one.  Without you or your doctor worrying about whether it qualifies as "legal" or what anyone else might think about it.

Just like everything else in the US, the rich have many choices while the poor have very few choices. And of the few choices they have, most of the choices suck. Which keeps them poor. 

[SassyPants]

Allowing government and those outside the scope of medicine to have a say in the medical care of individual citizens is just wrong on every level. 

How would folks feel if authorities outside of medicine stepped in to tell people that they could not have a heart transplant? (Looking at you Dick Cheney), vasectomy or tonsillectomy? Oh, Ms Sanders you need clot buster? Looks like you don’t exercise and your grocery cart is filled with items that are not healthy and are known to contribute to heart disease. Medicine denied, next!

Sorry Ms Seewald, no D and C for you. You already have 4 healthy kids and we’ve decided that’s enough for simple folks who contribute little to society. NEXT!

[Howl]

15 hours ago, Analytica49 said:

First, and possibly this is irrelevant: Why are there no doctors willing to do abortions in defiance of the law, in states where it's banned?

Would like to know if you'd be willing to be sentenced to prison for years, lose your medical license and never be allowed to practice medicine again? 

Alternately, for example, do a D&C to remove dead fetal tissue and be ACCUSED of terminating a pregnancy, possibly be charged with a crime, face a jury trial, possibly lose the ability to have medical insurance, maybe go to prison for years...

That's what physicians, especially OB/GYN, in my state (Texas) are facing.  They are terrified. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

22 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The term pro-aborts will always get a huge eyeroll from me. I’m pro-choice, thanks. 

My glasses are fuzzy...is that you Derrick?

 

 

Geez. You go public about controversial topics and now you're mad it attracted attention?

F you 

[AprilQuilt]

This may be neither here nor there but I have seen a few people discussing their missed miscarriage experiences of going to the 12 week scan and finding that the baby had no heartbeat and had 'stopped growing at X weeks', and I wanted to share a personal experience of mine that might be helpful. Sharing below the jump, it's perfectly gentle and nothing explicit, but I understand some may not wish to read about pregnancy loss.

Spoiler

My MMC pregnancy was heavily monitored due to my previous losses. I think I had 4 scans during my first trimester, it might have been 5. Over this time they initially confirmed that the foetus was present but not as large as it should have been; a week on from that we had hope because although it hadn't grown as much as it ought to, it had a strong heartbeat and the sonographer was pleased with it, saying that perhaps my dates were out (I knew they couldn't be by that much). Initially it measured a week behind, then two weeks, and finally by the time no heartbeat was found, it measured 8 weeks when it should have been about 12. Essentially my baby was alive for a while, and growing very slowly - I think it tried really hard - but it was never healthy.

I say this because I know that people who only get a 12 week scan and experience the awful shock of a MMC, might look back to the point in time at which the baby supposedly 'stopped growing' and wonder if something they did caused it, or if at some point they missed a sign to seek medical care. If it gives anyone any comfort, I want to let you know that because I was privileged to witness my pregnancy in detail, I can accept that my MMC was not caused by anything I did. There was no point at which intervention could have made any difference, because lots of professionals were monitoring and caring for my baby and they did all they could, which really was simply to fill me with hormones and vitamins and let it try. I'm grateful to have that evidence. It gives me quite a bit of peace. If you need to hear something like this right now, I hope it helps you too.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by AprilQuilt

[SisterCupcake]

@AprilQuilt - same. My body started miscarrying at 11 weeks, but the little one had stopped growing at 9 weeks. I didn't realize anything was wrong, and only went to be checked out for a tiny bit of spotting. After everything was said and done though (including a D&C), they tested the tissue and found out that it was a freak and totally random and unpreventable genetic issue that caused the miscarriage, which made me feel better. I wasn't blaming myself, but it was still nice to have confirmation of what happened.