Dillards 92: Prosecuting All Of Us

[Smee]

Jill said in the doco something like “often you have to go through hell before you question things and change” and that about sums it up for me. She had to go on TV and share about the worst parts of her childhood and SA, talking about how she forgives her brother who it turns out is still a pedo, 9 months after getting married she had a horrible birth that she had to have on camera, no one helped pay the health insurance or gave her adult self a direct paying contract, and when daddy dearest was asked for help he showed his true colours and everything began to crumble for her. Jinger appears to be *happy* in her current life in a different brand of fundamentalism, so she’s not motivated to do the work of continuing to question and engage critical thinking skills. She left IBLP because of an intellectual clash between husband and father, and she knew she had to submit to a male’s authority so it was just a matter of who had the better argument as to why it should be them. 

[Johannah]

I think Jill is the smartest Duggar. Like most raw intelligence. Deprived of a real education, all she had to achieve and succeed at was a bunch of wisdom booklets and associated rules given to her. She got an A+ in Gothardism, whereas the other kids were more half-assed about it. Jill was earnest and genuine in her devotion while everyone else was maybe gaming the system a little bit, no critical thinking abilities, no intellectual curiosity, unbothered by a lack of internal logic, a la Jim bob if it made their lives easier and didn’t require too much work then why not just go with it.

Because Jill was so stringent, I think the moment a crack appeared, as soon as there was substantive doubt, she had to throw it all out. It makes sense to me that she was the one who went from over-achieving kool-aid drinker to full on belief rejecter.

I think I’ve mentioned this before, but I am family friends with Derick’s high school biology teacher. He is a raging liberal progressive, unabashedly taught evolution, and was invited and went to J&D’s wedding. He has described Derick as extremely bright and a good student. Meaning Derick also learned and did well on tests about evolution taught by a talented and knowledgeable teacher. And I assume he didn’t just get through it cursing him to hell under his breath given that Derick maintained a relationship with him and invited him to his wedding many years later. 

I’m still so confused about how Derick ended up connected to Jim Bob. Besides being from the same geographic area (which I’m not sure was all that relevant at the time since Derick was living in Nepal then, not hanging out with JB in person), I don’t get what connection they had that would make Derick reach out to him and JB respond. 

JB presents as oafish on television. Even if Derick was going through a fundie phase, why not reach out to more of a well-read theologian type person? And JB must have gotten countless similar contacts and requests. Why did he respond to Derick? And then once they started talking, why did the relationship persist? Even if JB didn’t reject Derick for being too educated and worldly, I would think that Derick would have realized at some point that Boob was a moron with questionable morals. I feel like we’re missing something about the story. 
 

Lots of thoughts here…for whatever reason watching SHP triggered my memory of Jill’s wedding episode in which Josh called her a tattletale. I know it’s been discussed here before, but knowing what we know now, I think Josh was deliberately trying to retraumatize and abuse Jill publicly. I don’t think it was just an I’m pissed you did that and I’m going to call you out, or I’m so tone deaf I think it’s funny kind of situation. I think he is a sick person who got off on reminding Jill of the abuse, reminding her that he got away with it, and that he could take the floor and control and abuse her even in public, even at her own wedding and make her feel violated all over again and there was nothing she could do about it.

She has 18 effing siblings. Her closest sister/maid of honor giving a speech, sure, but why the eff was her older brother who she wasn’t close to speaking at her wedding in the first place? Even if he hadn’t also been her abuser, which just makes it even more sickening. I actually felt nauseated putting this together. I hope a silver lining in all the shit she’s been through is that her story is now out in the light and millions of total strangers have her back. She can’t be abused and gaslit anymore. 

[marmalade]

I think Derick wrote to Boob because he saw this "great Christian man" on TV, and he was LOCAL!!!! He was looming for a father figure after losing his dad as a college freshman. 

I think Boob responded because Derick was a local kid on a mission. They both harkened back to their native roots, and that bound them. 

[Cam]

I think Derick’s motive in becoming buddies with JB was the possibility of courting Jill. (She rather proudly said in the documentary that there were two other guys who wanted to court her at the same time that Derick was interested and Derick won out). JB thought Derick would be easily manipulated (and he was for awhile) due to lack of father. JB saw himself filling that role and taking control. He also was looking for a storyline for his show and it was about time he started marrying off the girls. Interesting that he didn’t start with Jana. Something must have been up with that already since she never married. Maybe JB saw that coming. 

I definitely agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT that Josh got off reminding Jill of the abuse and wtf WAS he doing speaking at her wedding? If there was something JB was not gonna allow, it shoulda been that. Jill probably had to go along to keep the peace and show she had no hard feelings about the SA, that it was all smoothed over and no one even thought about it any more for goodness sake! UGH!!

Edited June 20, 2023 by Cam

[QuiverFullofBooks]

10 hours ago, Cam said:

definitely agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT that Josh got off reminding Jill of the abuse and wtf WAS he doing speaking at her wedding? If there was something JB was not gonna allow, it shoulda been that. Jill probably had to go along to keep the peace and show she had no hard feelings about the SA, that it was all smoothed over and no one even thought about it any more for goodness sake! UGH!!

He was the master of ceremonies at a few pre-scandal weddings (plus, oddly, Nurie and Nathan’s wedding). Josh was a much more confident public speaker than most of the Duggars. Also, he wasn’t a groomsman in those weddings, was he? They could claim on the show that he had the MC role instead, but I think that his siblings didn’t want him in their wedding parties.

[CarrotCake]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:12 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

What’s funny is that out of the 4 oldest Duggar daughters, Jill and Jinger were the biggest people pleasers of the bunch. While although Jessa and Jana were rebel had girls or anything, I wouldn’t go so far as to say they were people pleasers. And yet the 2 biggest people pleasers in the family have been the ones to denounce Gothard.

I think this is partly because they choose a husband that takes a leading roll, which matches with their follower-roll.

Even though they are shitty people as well, I do think both Derrick and Jeremy had a major influence in showing the faults in the Duggar upbringing. 

Jessa wears the pants in her relationship so she is less likely to be influenced by Ben in this and Jana has no partner at all to influence her.

 

[LillyP]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, Johannah said:

I’m still so confused about how Derick ended up connected to Jim Bob. Besides being from the same geographic area (which I’m not sure was all that relevant at the time since Derick was living in Nepal then, not hanging out with JB in person), I don’t get what connection they had that would make Derick reach out to him and JB respond.

Derick was 100% still reeling from his dad's death. He was raised Christian, and pretty conservative in general, and I'm sure it was a situation where when the ish hit the fan he doubled down and tried to seek faith in religion to cope. I think he was searching for "something" in terms of spirituality and a spiritual headship since the passing of his father. He saw JB as a Godly man, because that's what was portrayed in the public. He didn't grow up IBLP and JB presents outwardly this whole "awe shucks" persona. In reality he's sly and calculating. In return I think JB saw this very impressionable young man who was clearly having a crisis of....maybe not faith...but definitely crisis of headship. A giant part of their "ministry" as they call it, is to bring in new members. I think he saw an easy target in Derick, and paved the way for the intro to Jill. Time heals wounds and I think that's exactly what happened. By the time Derick has come out from the cloud that was his father passing he was already in the thick of things with the whole family and married to Jill. He also has real world experience as a kid who went to real school and university. As they really started their married adult lives he very quickly found the cracks. 

 

[Dandruff]

8 hours ago, LillyP said:

By the time Derick has come out from the cloud that was his father passing he was already in the thick of things with the whole family and married to Jill. He also has real world experience as a kid who went to real school and university. As they really started their married adult lives he very quickly found the cracks. 

I'm pretty sure that realizing he and Jill were being financially screwed went a long way toward him identifying other cracks.

[TN-peach]

11 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I'm pretty sure that realizing he and Jill were being financially screwed went a long way toward him identifying other cracks.

Can you imagine the crack that opened up when Jill realized that what she felt was a sense of a betrayal when she couldn't get paid or reimbursed for the birth episode and hospital bill?  She was probably taught to ignore those emotions for so long that she wouldn't really be able to identify it but she could probably start to think about the other times when she felt similar to that.  When her needs//wants/desires were put to the side for the sake of the family/show. 

[SassyPants]

I think 1 of JB’s cruelest ploys was(is) making sure that no one named Duggar or married to a Duggar did/ does better in life than himself. How did JB convince Derick to quit WM in deference to the show? Talk about screwing over his daughter and her family. Did JB’s TLC/Figure 8 contract state that no one could work outside of the show? So the Dillards would work and JB would reap the reward$? How screwed up is that?

Everything with Derick and the Duggars was bad timing. The initial relationship, his mother’s illness, their first pregnancy, quitting WM, the molestation reveal, the Ashley Madison reveal, moving  to CA, his jaw surgery…all bad timing.

[OldFadedStar]

9 hours ago, TN-peach said:

Can you imagine the crack that opened up when Jill realized that what she felt was a sense of a betrayal when she couldn't get paid or reimbursed for the birth episode and hospital bill?  She was probably taught to ignore those emotions for so long that she wouldn't really be able to identify it but she could probably start to think about the other times when she felt similar to that.  When her needs//wants/desires were put to the side for the sake of the family/show. 

And it wasn't even like she volunteered to have her birth on the show. She mentioned in SHP that she didnt want her birth filmed and was pretty much told too bad so sad. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

In the documentary, Jill talked about her mom signing contracts for her after she turned 18. Could she sue her parents and TLC? I’d love to see that.

[marmalade]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

In the documentary, Jill talked about her mom signing contracts for her after she turned 18. Could she sue her parents and TLC? I’d love to see that.

When they found out, they got a lawyer and went to JB. Avoiding a lawsuit, they negotiated a cash deal, e ouch for them to buy their first home and put Derick through law school (I doubt he saddled himself with that much debt with a family to raise). At any rate, they later said it amounted to paying minimum wage. 

[socalrules]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:28 PM, marmalade said:

When they found out, they got a lawyer and went to JB. Avoiding a lawsuit, they negotiated a cash deal, e ouch for them to buy their first home and put Derick through law school (I doubt he saddled himself with that much debt with a family to raise). At any rate, they later said it amounted to paying minimum wage. 

I am happy Jill was able to get some money out of Jim Bob but I hope the money she earned wasn’t used to put Derrick through law school. I have a problem with her paying for him to go to school when her education is so woefully lacking. I get she was raised differently but I would have at least used that money to educate myself even if it’s taking one or two classes a semester. I understand Derrick will be able to earn a better living but, if they divorce, he will still have his education on her dime and she will still be uneducated and now unable to support herself and her children. 

[CarrotCake]

26 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I am happy Jill was able to get some money out of Jim Bob but I hope the money she earned wasn’t used to put Derrick through law school. I have a problem with her paying for him to go to school when her education is so woefully lacking. I get she was raised differently but I would have at least used that money to educate myself even if it’s taking one or two classes a semester. I understand Derrick will be able to earn a better living but, if they divorce, he will still have his education on her dime and she will still be uneducated and now unable to support herself and her children. 

I do think that at that point in their lives, Derricks education was the best decision for all of them. Now that he graduated and earn a good living, Jill can focus on her education once the kids go to school.

[TN-peach]

The interview in Shiny Happy People made it sound like the lump sum was tied to signing a new contract and the Dillards noped out then.  They were tired of being forced to doing things they didn't want to do because of the show/JB's wishes (film birth scenes, leave Latin America, etc.).

There is the possibility they were given some money but not the large lump sum back pay that was tied to the new contract or may be they were able to get some money without signing the contract.  But I definetely got the impression that Derrick negotiated with JB some sort of payout that the JB then offered to all of the adult children only if they agreed to sign a new contract.

[Cam]

8 hours ago, socalrules said:

I am happy Jill was able to get some money out of Jim Bob but I hope the money she earned wasn’t used to put Derrick through law school. I have a problem with her paying for him to go to school when her education is so woefully lacking. I get she was raised differently but I would have at least used that money to educate myself even if it’s taking one or two classes a semester. I understand Derrick will be able to earn a better living but, if they divorce, he will still have his education on her dime and she will still be uneducated and now unable to support herself and her children. 

I don’t think it would have covered much of his tuition. He no doubt got loans. Besides, they needed money to pay hospital bills. The rest may have gone for a down payment on a house. 

 

1 hour ago, TN-peach said:

The interview in Shiny Happy People made it sound like the lump sum was tied to signing a new contract and the Dillards noped out then.  They were tired of being forced to doing things they didn't want to do because of the show/JB's wishes (film birth scenes, leave Latin America, etc.).

There is the possibility they were given some money but not the large lump sum back pay that was tied to the new contract or may be they were able to get some money without signing the contract.  But I definetely got the impression that Derrick negotiated with JB some sort of payout that the JB then offered to all of the adult children only if they agreed to sign a new contract.

The Dillards did not sign another contract but said they got a lump sum payout which Derick stated amounted to earning minimum wage for the hours worked. It may have been a nice chunk of money but does not sound like a massive windfall by any means.

So friggin JB made literal millions of dollars, millions, off of the filming of Jill and his other daughters courtships, weddings and childbirths, but would not cough up more than minimum wage to show his appreciation. Even that was only after legal action was taken by the Dillards! Then JB turns around and throws tens of thousands of dollars, maybe over a hundred thousand dollars, towards Josh’s defense lawyers and the trial even tho Josh cost JB his reality show and ruined JB’s reputation, trashed everything. That is soooo messed up. Not sure if the average person watching Shiny Happy People really connects those kinds of dots to understand JB’s disgusting manipulations.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Cam

[viii]

Even if the money did pay for Derrick's full education, I think that was the right move at the time for their family. Jill was nowhere ready to go back to secondary education. Now the family has a secure income that isn't relying on JB. Besides, due to their marriage clauses, divorce would be tough for them so it's an unlikely (but not impossible) scenario. 

[Coconut Flan]

Divorce is somewhat tougher with a covenant marriage, but quite possible.  It's an internet rumor that won't die that it's nearly impossible.  It's even easier since they moved closer to Oklahoma..  One of them could establish residency in OK and file there.

Quote

Filing

The complaint for divorce must contain factual allegations specific to your case. Before you can file for divorce, the following must be true:

you have lived in Arkansas for 60 days;

you have attended marital counseling;

you have grounds for divorce (see below);

the grounds happened within the last 5 years.

 

Your complaint for divorce must contain numbered paragraphs that include this information. If your spouse does not want the divorce, then you must have a hearing and prove each of the things listed above.  You will also need to bring a witness to confirm your testimony about the grounds and Arkansas residency.

Grounds for Divorce

The grounds for divorce in a covenant marriage are stricter than in a normal marriage. You must prove that your spouse committed at least one of these grounds to be granted a divorce:

adultery;

felony or serious crime;

physical or sexual abuse of you or one of your children;

living separate and apart from you for at least two years;

living separate and apart from you for at least two years from the date of a judicial separation;

 

 

 

 

[viii]

I never said it wasn't impossible, I said it was an unlikely scenario. 

[Coconut Flan]

I don't think the covenant marriage requirements would really discourage Derick if he wanted a divorce.  He seems fairly settled though.  Derick is a situation where the covenant marriage would be a non-issue.  He's already working in OK so all he'd need is an apartment.  I think he's made the situation work for him though and he may well know he isn't necessarily attractive to a lot of women.  

[Smee]

Here in Oz you can’t file for divorce until you’ve been separated at least 12 months but you can absolutely still claim child support and get lawyers involved in negotiating a financial settlement in the meantime. I don’t know what the rules are over there, but here future earning capacity and “non financial contributions to the relationship” (ie child rearing and house keeping) are taken into account in the financial settlement so it’s rarely a 50:50 split. I have a postgraduate degree and my ex has 30% custody of the kids, but the asset split still went 60:40 my way, it’d be more if I was sole carer or had minimal earning capacity. Putting money towards Derrick’s education and therefore their long term family income isn’t necessarily a bad decision for Jill even if they DID divorce (which I don’t think they will).

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

Divorce in USA (as I understand) is based on the state laws of your residency.

The state I was in required 6 mo residence I believe? Then you could file regardless of where the soon to be ex is.

Some states have 50/50 assets splits. No matter what.

We had no assets so I can't say how that might have gone. I did have to go to court and testify to that AND the last time we had sex. In front of the whole.court. embarrassing!

I doubt they'd divorce though they seem pretty happy. 

For social security you can claim under your spouses name/earnings to some extent once you've been married 10 years. So even if she doesn't work she would have that.

How long have they been married?

[marmalade]

2 hours ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

Divorce in USA (as I understand) is based on the state laws of your residency.

The state I was in required 6 mo residence I believe? Then you could file regardless of where the soon to be ex is.

Some states have 50/50 assets splits. No matter what.

We had no assets so I can't say how that might have gone. I did have to go to court and testify to that AND the last time we had sex. In front of the whole.court. embarrassing!

I doubt they'd divorce though they seem pretty happy. 

For social security you can claim under your spouses name/earnings to some extent once you've been married 10 years. So even if she doesn't work she would have that.

How long have they been married?

Nine years last week.

[CarrotCake]

Even if divorce might be in their future, I don't think either of them would consider it at this moment, even if it was easy.

They seem quite happy together and have enough shit going on outside of their marriage to deal with that a stable family situation is very wanted. In a scenario like this, I think you need to have serious issues going on (like abuse, cheating etc) to change that situation. Wanting to develop in a different direction than your spouse can wait to after you dealt with the other drama.