Dillards 92: Prosecuting All Of Us

[sndral]

9 hours ago, indianabones said:

The Duggars Snark subreddit seems to have come to the conclusion that Derek attacked Jazz Jennings as a way to get his family out of their Counting On contract, rather than because he's just a total transphobe.

This reminds me of why I rarely look over on Reddit - there’s this herd mentality that so often goes off the rails over there, I notice it especially w/ crime related subjects where so many of them don’t have a clue about investigations or court proceedings but that doesn’t stop them from assuming & speculating 🤷‍♀️. 

People aren’t all ‘good’ or all ‘bad.’ Just because Derek has recently done things which Reddit approves of doesn’t erase his past. People do change, some drift or even pivot becoming more ‘liberal’ or more ‘conservative.’ People have nuanced views which change through time in part because they experience more as they live longer. The Dillards are more likely to evolve away from the christofascist views of the far right bubble because they don’t live in it anymore. JB freezing Jill out actually forced the Dillards to live in the real world, if JB does that with other kids who don’t ask how high when he says jump he’ll lose a few more.

In the very patriarchal bubble the Duggars live in, sons have always counted, daughters not so much. JB sacrificed his daughters to protect Josh. I suspect he’d be really upset if one of his son’s strayed, but daughters straying he probably just sees as further evidence that they are weaker/lesser & blames their husbands.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

13 hours ago, Cam said:

Here’s another thing I like about Jill’s book. Any time a Duggar dude runs for office now, his opponent(s) will have so much more mud to sling. Articles about the family will most often include a blurb about Jill’s take on things. I’m thinking this is one reason why Jed is already so outspoken about the upcoming book. He’s realizing that a tell-all will put a stop to his political aspirations. It’s also gotta piss him off that a woman is being so outspoken. I mean that ain’t the way an IBLP female behaves. He must think Jill gonna rot in hell. But the truth is she drivin’ her way out of it! 

How dare Jill not stay in her sister mom lane! 
 

I hope someone will summarize it with content warnings. I still have to be careful what I read, watch, see, know. 

[SassyPants]

21 hours ago, sndral said:

This reminds me of why I rarely look over on Reddit - there’s this herd mentality that so often goes off the rails over there, I notice it especially w/ crime related subjects where so many of them don’t have a clue about investigations or court proceedings but that doesn’t stop them from assuming & speculating 🤷‍♀️. 

People aren’t all ‘good’ or all ‘bad.’ Just because Derek has recently done things which Reddit approves of doesn’t erase his past. People do change, some drift or even pivot becoming more ‘liberal’ or more ‘conservative.’ People have nuanced views which change through time in part because they experience more as they live longer. The Dillards are more likely to evolve away from the christofascist views of the far right bubble because they don’t live in it anymore. JB freezing Jill out actually forced the Dillards to live in the real world, if JB does that with other kids who don’t ask how high when he says jump he’ll lose a few more.

In the very patriarchal bubble the Duggars live in, sons have always counted, daughters not so much. JB sacrificed his daughters to protect Josh. I suspect he’d be really upset if one of his son’s strayed, but daughters straying he probably just sees as further evidence that they are weaker/lesser & blames their husbands.

Above all else, JB worships at the altar of control/power and money. He wasn’t protecting Josh, he was protecting his own income stream and the Duggar name (future income stream). 

He’d throw every damn one of them under the bus to protect his own pocketbook. 

[viii]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:59 PM, BullyJBG said:

Now I got that David Meece song in my head, and rabbit-trailing on that; David Meece is a Christian singer from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and has sort of gone under the radar as of late. I sent a message to his Facebook page asking if he's still alive......

This is such a throwback to my childhood - my parents loved David Meece. I wonder what he's up to these days. 

My parents were shocked when I told them the glow up Ray Boltz had 😂

[Antimony]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:46 AM, Giraffe said:

(I’m pushing back against Duggar snark, not you)

Derrick berating a child was a douchebag move, regardless of why he did it. He hasn’t retracted it or issued any sort of apology. It seems he’s been a good influence on Jill. It also seems like he’s a homophobic, transphobic bigot who voted for Drumpf. Both can be true. 

Both can be true. Both are probably true. I've been wondering about this since watching Shiny Happy People. I haven't heard the theory that he attacked Jazz because it would get him out of TLC on the reddit, and I really doubt it was that. I mean, it may have been a welcome side effect of attacking Jazz, but I doubt that was his purpose.

What is interesting to me, though, is that when he attacked Jazz, it wasn't not very popular to do so. Not that there's been a time in this country that has been good and safe for transgender people, but transgender people weren't very visible at the time at all, and Jazz was kind of this niche show and, importantly, a child. (And honestly, probably another victim of TLC because she was very young and very intimate details of her life were being made into reality TV, and that is terrible.) But, anyway, my point is it wasn't even particularly hip among right-wingers to do this, not the way it is now. Now, we're seeing a rise in transphobia as a predictable backlash against progress and part of emerging fascism in the United States and...Derrick hasn't said shit about it recently, that I have seen. 

The last I can see him defending himself about this was 2019, and then a 2020 statement that they have queer friends (doubtful...but okay). But I have to ask...why? If Derrick is still devoted to being so transphobic...now is his time to shine. Transphobia is all the rage. JK Rowling is doing it. Florida is going wild. States are passing bills like crazy. 

So...why?

Is it because he sees society doing what he wants, so he sees nothing to "speak out" against? I don't know. It doesn't seem like that, because as horrible as the flaring transphobia is, it's a reaction against progress. (Dylan is the most obvious form of reactionary bigotry here.)

Is it because he's changed his mind? Possible. That would be a fast and drastic change, but maybe?

Is it because he sees the audience that likes his wife, the people that want Jill to kill the Duggar Dynasty, are largely more liberal than he is, and he sees he can't say this right now if he wants those good good Kindle Unlimited bucks?

Some combination of two of the three? I really don't know. It's definitely interesting.  I don't want to be hopeful about it...but it's just curious. 

[Idlewild]

@Antimony possibly because he is employed and there would be consequences for hate speech. 

[candygirl200413]

10 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

@Antimony possibly because he is employed and there would be consequences for hate speech. 

litterally this lol, very maddening how people are trying to justify or say not everyone is amazing all the time (which is true!) but like we have trans rights being attacked left and right? among other things, but until they show they have legitimately grown from that maybe realize that he is still a bigot! (not you others who have commented)

[sndral]

39 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

@Antimony possibly because he is employed and there would be consequences for hate speech. 

Bingo, as a prosecutor your best course is to STFU, I assume he’s using this job as a stepping stone (many do, you get tremendous trial experience that would usually take years to get in private practice) & once he moves on to private practice he can be more vocal if he chooses. As a prosecutor he’s working for an elected official & any comments he makes while working in that office are as a ‘representative’ of that office, so he should be cautious, especially as an inexperienced new prosecutor.

IME “no comment” is your best friend, you can’t win w/ the press, they develop their click bait narrative & any comment/justification/explanation you try to make they’ll twist to fit their slant.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I think both Derick and the documentarians were trying to keep the focus on Jill and IBLP. No need to get into his online drama. As for why he’s not talking about trans people these days, he’s a little older and more mature (and busier), and has a job that discourages picking fights online. I think it was about TLC rather than Jazz anyway. Derick criticized the airing of a minor’s medical procedures (reasonable) and also said that he doesn’t approve of gender correction surgery being done on minors (wrong, but not all that transphobic).

[HermioneSparrow]

2 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

litterally this lol, very maddening how people are trying to justify or say not everyone is amazing all the time (which is true!) but like we have trans rights being attacked left and right? among other things, but until they show they have legitimately grown from that maybe realize that he is still a bigot! (not you others who have commented)

He might still be (I think he is) but that doesn't mean he might not be changing his views or at least being less judgemental and keep his mouth shut. My grandparents and some aunts are evangelical christian and they have some of those views but at least they try not to comment on everyone's choices and they don't actively go against anyone's rights, maybe Derick can evolve into that and that's actually good enough.

 

We can't change everyone's opinions and values but we can expect that people are respectful of other people's choices. I certainly might not agree on different topics (not this one specifically) but I most definitely won't ever go against someone else's rights. I just think nowadays we expect everyone to have the same progressive views and that's not realistic.

[indianabones]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think both Derick and the documentarians were trying to keep the focus on Jill and IBLP. No need to get into his online drama. As for why he’s not talking about trans people these days, he’s a little older and more mature (and busier), and has a job that discourages picking fights online. I think it was about TLC rather than Jazz anyway. Derick criticized the airing of a minor’s medical procedures (reasonable) and also said that he doesn’t approve of gender correction surgery being done on minors (wrong, but not all that transphobic).

The disapproval of "gender correction surgery being done on minors" is a well-known transphobic dog whistle, and you seem to be forgetting the fact that he repeatedly misgendered Jazz.

[arareyeah]

For the time being they (Jill & Derick) keep their mouths shut when it comes to abhorrent views. And hopefully for the rest of their lives. Doubt they'll ever change those views behind closed door, but at least they don't influence their followers with such thing while still having the platforms to do so. If they claimed they have queer friends now, that doesn't mean they accept their friend's queerness. More than likely they just tolerate them, as long as those friends are not being obvious about it/they still need those friends in their lives, just like many conservatives I know. Like some sort of "my coworker is gay, he's fantastic, kind, and I love him but God forbid he kisses his husband in front me" kinda thing with them. 

[Antimony]

3 hours ago, Idlewild said:

@Antimony possibly because he is employed and there would be consequences for hate speech. 

This really never crossed my mind, partially because I kind of forget he had a regular job, and also because, well, I wouldn't even know what my contract says about issues like this, especially on personal social media, because I never...plan to do hate speech. It would be interesting to know what formal regulations his employer would or wouldn't have. Oklahoma doesn't have specific gender identity protections in their hate crimes law, and I imagine the OK DA's office is pretty conservative, but this is totally possible.

Most of my money is that he wants that good good good Kindle money from all of the snarkers, and he's acutely aware of the demographic issues there. 

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think both Derick and the documentarians were trying to keep the focus on Jill and IBLP. No need to get into his online drama. As for why he’s not talking about trans people these days, he’s a little older and more mature (and busier), and has a job that discourages picking fights online. I think it was about TLC rather than Jazz anyway. Derick criticized the airing of a minor’s medical procedures (reasonable) and also said that he doesn’t approve of gender correction surgery being done on minors (wrong, but not all that transphobic).

It was pretty goddamn clear that it was about transgender foks, Jazz was just a relevant target to him because of TLC.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Antimony

[socalrules]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

This really never crossed my mind, partially because I kind of forget he had a regular job, and also because, well, I wouldn't even know what my contract says about issues like this, especially on personal social media, because I never...plan to do hate speech. It would be interesting to know what formal regulations his employer would or wouldn't have. Oklahoma doesn't have specific gender identity protections in their hate crimes law, and I imagine the OK DA's office is pretty conservative, but this is totally possible.

Derrick has to be extremely careful now as a prosecutor. It doesn’t matter that the OK DA might be conservative. If it appears he is improperly bias towards or against a defendant or victim due to their gender/sexual orientation/race and allows his bias to affect how he treats them and does his job, he opens himself, and the department he works for, up to the Justice Department getting involved due to civil rights violations. Then you also  put yourself in a position where a complaint may be made against you to state bar and you potentially lose your license.
 

If Derrick is out there talking about how he hates trans people, he puts in question any work he has done pertaining to a trans victim or trans defendant. Your reputation is the most important thing you have as a lawyer. It affects you with your colleagues and before the Court. Better he think it and keep his mouth shut.  

[Funwithfundies]

On a lighter note... any Simpsons fans here? I keep having the thought that the theory about Derick becoming a lawyer to 'take down Jim Bob' reminds me of Itchy graduating from conductor school just so that he can run over Scratchy with a train. 

[candygirl200413]

6 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

He might still be (I think he is) but that doesn't mean he might not be changing his views or at least being less judgemental and keep his mouth shut. My grandparents and some aunts are evangelical christian and they have some of those views but at least they try not to comment on everyone's choices and they don't actively go against anyone's rights, maybe Derick can evolve into that and that's actually good enough.

 

We can't change everyone's opinions and values but we can expect that people are respectful of other people's choices. I certainly might not agree on different topics (not this one specifically) but I most definitely won't ever go against someone else's rights. I just think nowadays we expect everyone to have the same progressive views and that's not realistic.

or... he might not. I just can't while we are dealing with a high number of laws being introduced to hurt the Trans community and Roe v Wade being overturned. Something that they had a hand in with helping. 

[HermioneSparrow]

42 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

or... he might not. I just can't while we are dealing with a high number of laws being introduced to hurt the Trans community and Roe v Wade being overturned. Something that they had a hand in with helping. 

I understand. But, humans are very complex and deconstruction is not a black and white issue and it's not something that happens in a day, it takes time. They might never be progressive but I truly hope that at least they get to the point of understanding and respecting everyone even if they don't agree. Just like being prochoice, I wouldn't get an abortion under any circumstance but life threatening, and I can't imagine or comprehend choosing that but I can't choose over anyone else's body nor I want to take away anybody else's rights even if I don't share the same views, it's none of my business. I hope they get to that point and I hope their boys grow up as better human beings because of it.

Edited June 3, 2023 by HermioneSparrow

[Smee]

I tend to think that trans people simply aren’t that high on Derrick’s list of priorities anymore. Sure, there’s more media attention and everything @Antimonysaid about JK etc is true, but as he’s grown older and had kids and gone to law school he’s had less time and energy to spend on being outspoken about stuff that doesn’t directly relate to him and his life. He’ll continue to call out JB, because that affects him. But he doesn’t have time to be spouting off on Twitter about everything he has an opinion on, and while I doubt he’s deconstructed far enough to be pro-trans-rights I also doubt he’s all that passionate about his transphobia anymore.

Anyway I came in here to say I hope Jill is ok and continues to get lots of support from her therapist. It kind of sounds like she did the doco not because she wanted her story out there or found it healing, but because she didn’t feel like she had much choice. There was going to be a ton of media attention on her life again and she wanted some control over the narrative. That’s hard. While I’m all for exposing JB and IBLP and burning it all down, for a child who grew up having no choice about being a TV spectacle, a woman who was bullied into televising the intimate moments of her life and birth, a woman who was strong armed into reliving and downplaying her personal trauma for the sake of a public reputation and TV show, to now be back on camera sharing all the worst parts all over again would be tough. 

[Idlewild]

@Smee I agree with most of what you said, but I do think Jill made a conscious choice to appear in the documentary. She and Derick have talked about writing a book for a while and this documentary is the perfect launch for it. I don’t say this in a derogatory way- she was exploited by her parents and had her trauma used by them to line their pockets.

This documentary was going to be made and I suspect Amy has always been all over it, so why shouldn’t she give her side and promote something she’ll actually benefit from?
As an aside, I have always loathed JB and that remains unchanged, but I came away from watching the documentary realising what a manipulative bitch Michelle is, with her simpering voice and her justification for every wrong decision she and JB made.

[backyard sylph]

18 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think both Derick and the documentarians were trying to keep the focus on Jill and IBLP. No need to get into his online drama. As for why he’s not talking about trans people these days, he’s a little older and more mature (and busier), and has a job that discourages picking fights online. I think it was about TLC rather than Jazz anyway. Derick criticized the airing of a minor’s medical procedures (reasonable) and also said that he doesn’t approve of gender correction surgery being done on minors (wrong, but not all that transphobic).

It suggests ignorance and assumptions based on that ignorance. I think there are generally two main kinds of antagonists in this situation and others like it; people who assume that what they know is all that's needed to make a judgment, and people whose path in life leaves no room for others to be acceptable.

You can't often get to anyone in that second group unless they come face to face with the need to accept and get onto another path, and even then they'll sometimes double down on their narrow point of view. (Hi Jed, you literal tool.) The first group is just a whole lot of people, whether or not we like to admit it. I think it's probably a basic personality trait, are you or do you feel the need to be a concrete literal type of thinker, or do you like to or feel the need to get real expansive, or even open-ended on life's great questions.

Also, Christians are taught to fear situational ethics, although kind of the entire point of ethics is that they are sometimes situational. Derick might grow through his job if not through his church. Because the church will still be largely about power and who has it and what "threatens" it. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

On 6/2/2023 at 3:56 PM, Antimony said:

It was pretty goddamn clear that it was about transgender foks, Jazz was just a relevant target to him because of TLC.

Ugh. Yeah, I didn’t remember that one. At least he’s shut up, for whatever reason.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I've watched the first two episodes of SHP: DFS tonight (acronym in honor of IBLP) and I have to say, I'm impressed by the Dillards.  So far the whole documentary is good, but Jill is well-spoken and Derick is clearly there for support as she tells her story, only jumping in when she looks to him for help.  She seems to be telling facts with the emotion intact but not allowing the emotion to overtake the story.  I know I don't agree with many of their beliefs, but in the same way that I found Jinger very well-spoken in one of her interviews I was pleasantly surprised with Jill.

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I'm conflicted about Derrick. It will be very interesting to see what, if anything, we find out about his actual beliefs now in the book.

I was mildly impressed that he and Jill seemed to have a positive dynamic in the documentary. He seemed genuinely supportive. 

What I thought he'd be like was how Amy's husband was: drawing attention to himself and his opinions and interrupting/talking over Jill. So I was especially glad to see him wait until she indicated that he should continue what she couldn't say.

They seem to have talked a lot about things they've been through and be on the same page.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by WatchingTheTireFireBurn

[FilleMondaine]

The first step is shutting up, isn’t it? Derrick knows that his law reputation and ability to effectively prosecute depends on it.

if he is smart enough (and he is smart enough to not interrupt Jill unless asked by her), he will be smart enough to ask “why shut up against LGBTQ+?” And then deconstruct from there.

Being a survivor, with a husband who supported me and also grew, I really hope that for her.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

Having just finished the documentary, I enjoyed it but felt that it didn't have enough scope.  There was the perfect opening to discuss Dr. Paine and Gil Bates as being members of the board who knew about Gothard's behavior who ousted him and came in to claim the organization... and nothing.  What a disappointment.