Charles and Camilla

[prayawaythefundie]

1 hour ago, treehugger said:

I think perhaps the BRF is criticized less because they are quieter about their lives. 

Maybe that‘s the reason for some but I‘ll admit right away that I just like them. It‘s totally irrational because, of course, there are so many issues with monarchy (past and present). You would have to be both ignorant and blind to not see that.

I do sometimes critize certain aspects but I‘m a fan, so I‘m biased. I compare this to being in love. You very well know that person is flawed but you feel drawn to them anyway. You never made a sound decision on this, it‘s just the way it is. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

12 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

They could have died of typhoid fever or something, with no foul play involved, but youʻre probably right that weʻll never know. 

Regardless, I really hope they go ahead with this investigation.

ETA: This overview from the Tower of London website is pretty good. 

I don’t think the bodies would have been hidden if they had died of natural causes. 

[louisa05]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:53 AM, rosamundi said:

He may not have wanted to overshadow his mother's coronation anniversary. His grandfather was also crowned in early May. 6th May also has a reasonable chance of being a Bank Holiday or close to a Bank Holiday for future Trooping of the Colour dates (for example, 6th May 2024 is a Bank Holiday).

As well as the scheduling nightmare that it is to organise an international event on this scale, there are also domestic schedules to consider. 3rd June is also FA Cup final day and William is the President of the Football Association, and it is traditional that the President attends and presents the cup to the winner, so if William had any input he may have said "could you avoid that day if possible." Apart from anything else, it would look bad for the viewing figures if millions of people suddenly switched over to watch the football. Charles has never struck me as a horsey person in the same way his Mother was, but he did inherit the racing stables and 3rd June is also Derby Day.

Trooping the Colour is part of the monarch’s official birthday. It is always in June and the timing is not at all related to the anniversary of a coronation. That tradition predates Elizabeth II and was done to ensure good weather for official celebrations regardless of the reigning monarch’s actual birthdate. 

[viii]

While the results will never tell us who ordered their deaths, I mainly just want to see if both bodies are the princes. There has always been that rumour that Elizabeth Woodville switched one of the boys. 

[just_ordinary]

21 hours ago, viii said:

Oh absolutely, but that's not what's happening here. I have zero issues with criticizing BRF and H&M. However, I have noticed that the majority of people in this section typically criticize H&M, and rarely BRF. 

I think the problems with the system and the family are well known and are criticised regularly? Have been for decades, sometimes extremely heated in the public discourse. It’s just - there is nothing new to say about it. Which is probably due to a big effort of the BRF to mostly don’t let it show too often. They try to only be visible with cushy work engagements. H&am have a different strategy. I mean I kind of get it; they don’t produce enough good headlines with work stuff and need more public attention. Instead of creating more output and well thought out charity stuff, they boost their profile by slagging off the royal life.

And look extremely hypocrisy while doing so, maybe even create a reaction of defending the BRF even if one isn’t actually blind to the problems.

This is rooted in the fact that initially they never wanted out exactly. Scaling it back on your own terms is not the same as having to give to up privileges. They never wanted to stop being part of the royal system. So, while they are now very happy to point out that the system is a recipe for dysfunctional family dynamics, hard on the individual, expect a certain type of work bee and can’t deal well with different styles and is a very flawed system …. they would have stayed if they had the chance. Which makes enough people think: So it can’t have been too bad? It’s not as if they said, Grams, Pops, Wills - it’s not working, the way royal work is done just doesn’t fit but is actually bad for our mental health. And by the way you are mean and racist. We detest the system. Take the titles, patronages, honours and money. Call us if you want to mend our relationship otherwise kiss our backsides. 
I strongly believe if they had actually cut those ties they would have had it hard sure, BUT they would have won the moral high ground. Followed up with great content they wouldn’t need to name drop - everyone would still know what they had and what relatives they have. It would be a completely different picture. A missed chance for sure.

Edited October 15, 2022 by just_ordinary

[Coconut Flan]

Harry and Meghan have a nice spot to talk about them.  Thank you.  

[47of74]

Once again I got something in my eyes 

[Jackie3]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:22 PM, tabitha2 said:

Real talk. Those two kids don’t really ever stop the couple from going and doing exactly what they want. 

Harry is similar to his grandmother that way. Elizabeth left Charles as an infant for no particular reason--she simply wanted to spend time with Philip at Malta. She flew back after a 5 week absence, but even then did not rush home, stopping to watch one of her horses in a race. When Charles was 3, she returned from a long absence and gave him a peck on the top of his head. And she wasn't even Queen yet.

So I agree. Just like Harry, the Queen went where she wanted to go, and did what she wanted to do. Ultimately, isn't that what we all do? 

[tabitha2]

Just a note. The second thing is one of those Royal things that had become a fact over the years when it’s not. The two children had been in almost constant contact with their parents over the  Wireless during the tour and they had been towed out to be E&P a day or two before when they returned. 

But I see you want to argue again pointlessly so on ignore you go again. Cheers! 

 

[SoSoNosy]

I am from Charles' generation and I have a very good memory.  In "those days", parents didn't feel the need to carry their children around in their hip pockets like the last couple of generations seem to.  My parents couldn't afford to go away for six weeks or whatever, but they didn't have a problem going to a dinner party with the "club" of young couples in our little town.  

 

[tabitha2]

I might add this was the 1950s not the 1850s. During their parents trips The 4 kids spent plenty of time with their Maternal grandmother and also Phillips  mother during the time she lived at BP. 

[Alisamer]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:26 PM, Mama Mia said:

This line of thought confuses me. When an adult child  even moderately speaks out and somewhat moves away from the highly controlling, ritualistic, cultish systems we snark on here we applaud them, and are generally understanding that they may not want a complete break from their family systems- but are exposing their experiences of the downsides, and that’s progress. We accept they are flawed.  We acknowledge that a supportive spouse is likely a large part of the reason they are  able to speak more freely ( Hello Jill Duggar  )

Literally every time someone posts positive things about Jill Dillard or others who have made some small progress, somebody eventuaally pops in to remind us all that none of that counts, they are still evangelical, they are still espousing the same terrible beliefs, and toss in some veiled accusations of leghumping. I think it's more prevalent places like Reddit than here (Reddit seems to lean toward "if they aren't militant atheists writing a tell-all and protesting churches they might as well still be following Gothard") but there's always some reminder that no matter what baby steps people have made, no matter the fact that they have moved into the sort of average church-going group that tons of people in this country are in, that they have gone from "fundie" to "average" for their area - they have never gone far enough. I get it - some changes are surface ones that don't mean much in the long run, but I'm personally willing to cheer on the baby steps in hopes they keep on stepping. 

There is no "far enough" to satisfy some people. I think stuff with the Royals is similar. Some people love them. Some people hate them. Some people acknowledge their problems but enjoy parts of their existence. And some people won't be happy unless the whole system is brutally dismantled. 

On 10/14/2022 at 4:38 PM, Loveday said:

Of course you count! 😆 That show, I'm tellin' ya, I would spend HOURS late at night watching episodes on YouTube. And there were over 250 of them if you count all the 'specials!' At some point someone tried to do a US version here, but it was a slow, boring mess, and there were no American equivalents to Phil, Mick (may he RIP forever!), Tony, or any of the other greats of the UK show. I don't think they even lasted six episodes. 🙄

 

I love Time Team. One of my favorites was one where they brought the team to a coastal area of the Carolinas and the cultural differences (and differences in archaeological technique - stuff that anyone can just pick up off the Thames foreshore in London are rare things that are marveled at and put in museums here, so all the dirt is sifted and fragments collected) were cute to see. Also the struggle for the team to deal with the heat and humidity. 

I do hope that the boys in the Tower are identified. It'd be interesting for such a long-term mystery to be solved. Maybe they could do a special of "History Cold Case" about it!

[QuiverFullofBooks]

22 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I love Time Team. One of my favorites was one where they brought the team to a coastal area of the Carolinas and the cultural differences (and differences in archaeological technique - stuff that anyone can just pick up off the Thames foreshore in London are rare things that are marveled at and put in museums here, so all the dirt is sifted and fragments collected) were cute to see. Also the struggle for the team to deal with the heat and humidity

Yes! There’s also one at St. Mary’s City in Maryland. An American archeologist was excavating a 17th century grave, and he asked the Brits how they handled excavations from the period, and the shocked Brits said that they would never, and most 17th century burials there are still in consecrated ground. 

As an American, I am horrified by the fast and rough British archeology. Let’s set an arbitrary limit of three days and bring in the heavy equipment! Let’s go looking for Richard III’s body with an earth mover and bash in his skull! 

[Alisamer]

14 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Yes! There’s also one at St. Mary’s City in Maryland. An American archeologist was excavating a 17th century grave, and he asked the Brits how they handled excavations from the period, and the shocked Brits said that they would never, and most 17th century burials there are still in consecrated ground. 

As an American, I am horrified by the fast and rough British archeology. Let’s set an arbitrary limit of three days and bring in the heavy equipment! Let’s go looking for Richard III’s body with an earth mover and bash in his skull! 

It is an interesting contrast between a relatively new country and a very ancient one. (Not that we don't have equally ancient stuff, it's just fewer and farther between generally.)

Have you ever watched any British mudlarks on YouTube? I especially like Tideline Arts and SiFinds. They are always walking around the Thames and finding random stuff washed up there. Like entire clay pipes from the 1600s. I go to historic sites in the US and there are fragments of a few pipes under glass that have been found at the site, and then they are walking alone just picking them up like "Oh, this one's broken. Too bad. I'll just leave that one there." It's amazing. They find like medieval coins and Roman artifacts and they do show the important-seeming ones to the British Museum but only the best of the best go there, the rest just end up on a shelf in their house. They find things from iron age stuff up to present day, it's fascinating.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

It is an interesting contrast between a relatively new country and a very ancient one. (Not that we don't have equally ancient stuff, it's just fewer and farther between generally.)

Have you ever watched any British mudlarks on YouTube? I especially like Tideline Arts and SiFinds. They are always walking around the Thames and finding random stuff washed up there. Like entire clay pipes from the 1600s. I go to historic sites in the US and there are fragments of a few pipes under glass that have been found at the site, and then they are walking alone just picking them up like "Oh, this one's broken. Too bad. I'll just leave that one there." It's amazing. They find like medieval coins and Roman artifacts and they do show the important-seeming ones to the British Museum but only the best of the best go there, the rest just end up on a shelf in their house. They find things from iron age stuff up to present day, it's fascinating.

I don’t watch them on YouTube, but I read Lara Maiklem’s book and follow her on Facebook. The Facebook format works well for a “look what I found today” post.

[Loveday]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:02 AM, Alisamer said:

I love Time Team. One of my favorites was one where they brought the team to a coastal area of the Carolinas and the cultural differences (and differences in archaeological technique - stuff that anyone can just pick up off the Thames foreshore in London are rare things that are marveled at and put in museums here, so all the dirt is sifted and fragments collected) were cute to see. Also the struggle for the team to deal with the heat and humidity. 

I do hope that the boys in the Tower are identified. It'd be interesting for such a long-term mystery to be solved. Maybe they could do a special of "History Cold Case" about it!

 

4 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Yes! There’s also one at St. Mary’s City in Maryland. An American archeologist was excavating a 17th century grave, and he asked the Brits how they handled excavations from the period, and the shocked Brits said that they would never, and most 17th century burials there are still in consecrated ground. 

As an American, I am horrified by the fast and rough British archeology. Let’s set an arbitrary limit of three days and bring in the heavy equipment! Let’s go looking for Richard III’s body with an earth mover and bash in his skull! 

I could well be wrong, but I think maybe the one @Alisamer is thinking of IS the St Mary's City one. I don't remember one in the coastal Carolinas, but her description of it sounds very much like St Mary's City. They also did one in Jamestown back around 2006, not long after archaeologist Bill Kelso found the site of the original fort, which had long been thought to have been washed away by the river. One of my absolute favourite episodes! (and I've had a secret geeky crush on Kelso for years! LOL)

@QuiverFullofBooks, I follow Lara Maiklem on FB as well, and some of the YouTubers. I could watch mudlarkers on the Thames all day long. Fieldwalking fascinates me as well. Imagine being given permission to walk a field after plowing has been done, to see what's turned up from centuries past!😲

I feel like I have found my people. ❤️ 

[Alisamer]

26 minutes ago, Loveday said:

 

I could well be wrong, but I think maybe the one @Alisamer is thinking of IS the St Mary's City one. I don't remember one in the coastal Carolinas, but her description of it sounds very much like St Mary's City. They also did one in Jamestown back around 2006, not long after archaeologist Bill Kelso found the site of the original fort, which had long been thought to have been washed away by the river. One of my absolute favourite episodes! (and I've had a secret geeky crush on Kelso for years! LOL)

@QuiverFullofBooks, I follow Lara Maiklem on FB as well, and some of the YouTubers. I could watch mudlarkers on the Thames all day long. Fieldwalking fascinates me as well. Imagine being given permission to walk a field after plowing has been done, to see what's turned up from centuries past!😲

I feel like I have found my people. ❤️ 

It probably was that one. My brain probably just went "early US = coastal Carolina/virginia" somehow! 

When I was a kid we'd sometimes play in the fields after plowing. We had a collection of little shards of pottery, hand made nails, old small bottles and once found a fork when digging a fencepost. There had been some "log cabins" in the area our farm was, according to my dad. I don't know where all that stuff ended up though. I guess it's no surprise we ended up watching mudlarks and stuff! My sister's house is on the back part of the land and there are steps down to the creek behind her house so at some point we might take the metal detector and go "creek stomping" back there and see if anything turns up.

[Loveday]

6 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

It probably was that one. My brain probably just went "early US = coastal Carolina/virginia" somehow! 

When I was a kid we'd sometimes play in the fields after plowing. We had a collection of little shards of pottery, hand made nails, old small bottles and once found a fork when digging a fencepost. There had been some "log cabins" in the area our farm was, according to my dad. I don't know where all that stuff ended up though. I guess it's no surprise we ended up watching mudlarks and stuff! My sister's house is on the back part of the land and there are steps down to the creek behind her house so at some point we might take the metal detector and go "creek stomping" back there and see if anything turns up.

I'm actually hoping you're right and there's an episode of Time Team I HAVEN'T seen yet! 

A great uncle of mine was a farmer and owned a very small island in the Susquehanna River a few miles downstream from Three Mile Island (this was well before the plant was built, so no tales of radiated vegetables or anything!). While plowing every spring, he would turn up hundreds of arrowheads. He kept an assortment of them in a glass case in his living room. I never heard whether he came across any other indigenous artifacts, but I would imagine that was a great place to fieldwalk. I have one of those points; he gave it to my mother when she was a little girl. I suppose his grandchildren inherited the rest of them. I should ask the one I keep in touch with on FB. It would be nice to know whether they donated any of the points to the Indian Steps Museum that's just a few miles downriver from the island. That's where they belong, I think, if they have room for them ( I mean, he found thousands through the years! 😮 ).

 

[Jackie3]

On 10/19/2022 at 12:49 PM, SoSoNosy said:

I am from Charles' generation and I have a very good memory.  In "those days", parents didn't feel the need to carry their children around in their hip pockets like the last couple of generations seem to.  My parents couldn't afford to go away for six weeks or whatever, but they didn't have a problem going to a dinner party with the "club" of young couples in our little town.  

 

There's a vast difference between leaving your children for an evening and leaving them for weeks. Parents leave their kids all the time nowadays, it's not just Charles generation who did so.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:06 AM, tabitha2 said:

The two children had been in almost constant contact with their parents over the  Wireless during the tour and they had been towed out to be E&P a day or two before when they returned. 

You miss so much when you are away from small children for so long. I can't imagine leaving my 2 year old or my 5 year old for so long for weeks on end. It would break my heart. While I'm sure the children were well-cared for, that isn't the point. The point is, why wouldn't she have missed them? 

She wasn't even Queen then. She had no official duties. She just must not have cared. She didn't even rush home, delaying to watch a horse race. 

There's a heartbreaking clip of Elizabeth getting off a train from somewhere and two-year old Charles rushes towards her, crying "Mummy!" She ignores him, embraces someone else, and then leans over to pat him casually.

I think Diana was a much more natural kind of mother.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:46 PM, tabitha2 said:

I might add this was the 1950s not the 1850s. During their parents trips The 4 kids spent plenty of time with their Maternal grandmother and also Phillips  mother during the time she lived at BP. 

Of course, they were not abandoned. But their parents were away for months at a time. (Elizabeth left for six months right after her coronation.). They missed a lot of birthdays, and other celebrations, and the kids developed strong attachment to their nannies. It's hardly the best way to raise children.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jackie3

[Coconut Flan]

You're whining about almost 70 years ago.  Comparing that to today isn't really useful.

[viii]

18 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

It's hardly the best way to raise children.

You're right, it's not the best way to raise children, which is why Charles raised his children differently. Again, Charles' parenting wasn't always the best either, so it's why William is raising his children differently to how he was raised. That's a natural thing of life, for peasants and royals - every generation wants to do better than the generation that came before them. 

[catlady]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:20 PM, Jackie3 said:

my 2 year old or my 5 year old 

How do you find so much time to troll strangers on the internet?

[SoSoNosy]

I am deep into the Palace Papers book, and I am fascinated.