Jana Duggar 15: Paying her court fine on Duggar time

[Cam]

I feel like at the time of Johannah’s birth, Michele must have really liked the name Hannah and needing to stick to the J code went with Johannah. Isn’t her nickname Hannie? Now Meech will have a dil named Hannah. 

I think all the girls look fine. They go to so many bridal showers it can’t be that big a deal to them. They seem dressed a bit more contemporary than when the older sibling girls were similar age and always seemed to wear the ankle length skirts, long sweaters and scarves. Which honestly never looked bad, it’s just that they weren’t ever allowed freedom to dress otherwise. But ew, I definitely gagged when the whole family wore the same thing….that truly looked cult- ish.

 

[Travelfan]

I find this topic of discussing how unkept they look or saying they look like they didn’t “try” to be pretty disturbing. These are mostly girls in the 12-15 year age group. This is probably just another thing they were told they had to go to.  Who exactly are they supposed to be trying to impress…us??  No one looks dirty or like their hair isn’t combed. They are wearing perfectly acceptable clothing.  
 

Maybe some of the issue is the variance in how dressy events like this are. I’m in the Midwest, and they all looked dressed just fine for a what they are, teenagers at a bridal shower. I’ve gone to SO many of these over the years (church people so you’re expected to go). Lots of people are just wearing jeans. Maybe if you were in a environment where bridal showers were for only close family/friends and were therefor more rare and somewhat fancy occasions you would have a different opinion. When you’ve been to a million showers in church basements you wear whatever 😂

[Grace]

I forgot there even WAS a Jennifer.

A year difference can really be noticable when the older kids hit that big growth spurt before the younger one. There is bound to be a big gap for a little while.no matter what the end heights end up being. 

[AussieKrissy]

22 hours ago, Lurker said:

They all look so unkempt. Their hair  is uncombed, stringy and dirty. They did not make any attempt to dress up a bit.   This is an celebration  not a visit to the gas station.  Without Jana to do the work and give her cover  Michelle fails to even understand why she should pay some attention to her family.  

They look unkempt even when Jana is with them. I actually thought this was one of their better appearances, Jordyn and Jen seem to be taking better charge of their clothing. I do agree that as a mother I would have liked my daughters look a bit more "special" for a party but hey I don't have 9 and I battle to get my one daughter nto a dress so hey they aren't naked so....

Edited February 25, 2022 by AussieKrissy
Edit by special I mean new dress or dressed to a theme. My daughter went to her cousin's engagement party my neice loves sunflowers and loves my daughter in yellow so I got my daughter a yellow dress and pretty party shoes.

[AussieKrissy]

When people talk about children being unkempt I remember reading about how children who "look like no one owns them" grew up feeling like that. It might have even been on here 

Im not going to be able to articulate this the best but from what I remember and understand is the child feels the judgement of the world that can see that the parent doesn't invest the time in them to keep them clean, neat and weather appropriate ect 

They internalise this to mean they are not worthy  

A bit or self pride in one's appearance is not a bad thing. I am forty three I can go out with grubby hair and no bra  and give no fucks about people's judgement. Never would i put my child in that position (continually, occasionally wont hurt). 

I had a friend sleep over once in year six so my mum could take her to our year six farewell  (her parents weren't bothered to take her). 

My mum was the perfect 1950s housewife that like stuff ironed and clean  I was always presentable. I learned how important that was when my mum noticed that my friend's going out clothes were not ironed and offered to iron then for her  my friend was so happy. My mum then noticed they were stained and offered her one of my dresses. I saw the pride my friend had in being taken care of and looking the part. 

I was very proud and thankful of my mum in that moment and realised that caring about how your child presents to the world is a form of love and protection. 

We have all seen and felt sorry for that poor grubby unkempt child we have seen in the shopping centre  that we just know is not being invested in. And yes I do believe you can tell the difference between an occasionally grubby I have been playing in the mud child to an everyday neglected child. 

In saying that I don't think the duggar girls have ever hit that extreme unkempt look of neglect. I think it's a combo of parental checking out and child doing the best they can with what they have got.

Unfortunately in this cult it's a fine line between neglect and pushing them to always have a pretty countenance because that's all they are meant to be.  

Anyway I ramble 

[GutenbergGirl]

9 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Oh everyone’s different. Those short parents could have an ancestor who was tall so the kid could have a higher range than the parents. Or they could be just like the parents.

My mother in law was 4'10".  My father in law was 5'1".  My husband is 5'10".  He towered over both of his parents by the time he was 12.  All four of his grandparents were short, but a great grandfather was very tall. Genetics are weird.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, GutenbergGirl said:

My mother in law was 4'10".  My father in law was 5'1".  My husband is 5'10".  He towered over both of his parents by the time he was 12.  All four of his grandparents were short, but a great grandfather was very tall. Genetics are weird.  

My sister loves to take pictures of my 6’10” nephew next to his 4’10” great grandma. It’s pretty cute. 

[viii]

2 hours ago, Travelfan said:

I find this topic of discussing how unkept they look or saying they look like they didn’t “try” to be pretty disturbing. These are mostly girls in the 12-15 year age group. This is probably just another thing they were told they had to go to.  Who exactly are they supposed to be trying to impress…us??  No one looks dirty or like their hair isn’t combed. They are wearing perfectly acceptable clothing. 

As progressive as FJ claims to be, it’s sad to see how often posts are made where you realize a good chunk of this board is still stuck in the backwater. 

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, Travelfan said:

I find this topic of discussing how unkept they look or saying they look like they didn’t “try” to be pretty disturbing. These are mostly girls in the 12-15 year age group. This is probably just another thing they were told they had to go to.  Who exactly are they supposed to be trying to impress…us??  No one looks dirty or like their hair isn’t combed. They are wearing perfectly acceptable clothing.  
 

Maybe some of the issue is the variance in how dressy events like this are. I’m in the Midwest, and they all looked dressed just fine for a what they are, teenagers at a bridal shower. I’ve gone to SO many of these over the years (church people so you’re expected to go). Lots of people are just wearing jeans. Maybe if you were in a environment where bridal showers were for only close family/friends and were therefor more rare and somewhat fancy occasions you would have a different opinion. When you’ve been to a million showers in church basements you wear whatever 😂

Thank you. They look perfectly fine and comfortable. My area isn’t the Midwest, and isn’t churchy, but this is how most teens/tweens would dress for a similar event, except half would have stretchy pants or jeans instead of all dresses. 
Kids, especially girls, this age just can’t win! They are too made up, or too sexy, or too frumpy, or too ragged, or too babyish, or too dependent on mom, or mom should be caring for them better  — Geeze. They are young teens. They tend to be slouchy with hair that gets messed up 1 minute after being brushed and awkward bodies they aren’t used to. Give them a break. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Oh I remember being a teen and I truly don’t care what they wear. I think it’s a time for experimenting with your style and figuring out what you like. I actually wish fundie teens were allowed way more freedom in this area. So they could dye their hair pink or wear all black and a dog collar. I had plenty of goth friends in high school and I never judged them for wearing black everything and chains. My niece is 15 and got some wild looking pants for Christmas but I thought they looked so cute on her. Teens should have fun expressing themselves. 

[Mama Mia]

Of course, for full disclosure - I’m kind of a hypocrite, because while I feel for THESE particular young girls - I have probably wasted approximately 5,000,000,000 hours of my only life trying to get my own family to stand up straight, brush their hair, take off that ratty hoodie, maybe please at LEAST wear some shoes that go better, maybe NOT go for  the visible black push up bra with the white teeny tiny crop top for the great-grandparents birthday party…..and so on and so on 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

7 hours ago, Cam said:

I feel like at the time of Johannah’s birth, Michele must have really liked the name Hannah and needing to stick to the J code went with Johannah. Isn’t her nickname Hannie? Now Meech will have a dil named Hannah. 

I think all the girls look fine. They go to so many bridal showers it can’t be that big a deal to them. They seem dressed a bit more contemporary than when the older sibling girls were similar age and always seemed to wear the ankle length skirts, long sweaters and scarves. Which honestly never looked bad, it’s just that they weren’t ever allowed freedom to dress otherwise. But ew, I definitely gagged when the whole family wore the same thing….that truly looked cult- ish.

 

That picture is horrifying. Could you imagine being one of Josh’s victims and him walking behind you?!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Thank you. They look perfectly fine and comfortable. My area isn’t the Midwest, and isn’t churchy, but this is how most teens/tweens would dress for a similar event, except half would have stretchy pants or jeans instead of all dresses. 
Kids, especially girls, this age just can’t win! They are too made up, or too sexy, or too frumpy, or too ragged, or too babyish, or too dependent on mom, or mom should be caring for them better  — Geeze. They are young teens. They tend to be slouchy with hair that gets messed up 1 minute after being brushed and awkward bodies they aren’t used to. Give them a break. 

This has nothing to do with them being pretty or not, at least for me.  The stark difference in how Michelle is put together compared to her daughters is sad.  She should be teaching them how to dress appropriately for an occasion and if she and Hannah are dressed appropriately (Jennifer may be as well) then the lost girls are not, and vice versa.

They don't look cared for.  And perhaps its the picture but most of the lost girls don't look like their hair is clean.  It's not a matter of style, it's about a mother who looks like she took care to make sure she looked good and didn't bother to parent and make sure her daughters did as well.

[Mama Mia]

6 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This has nothing to do with them being pretty or not, at least for me.  The stark difference in how Michelle is put together compared to her daughters is sad.  She should be teaching them how to dress appropriately for an occasion and if she and Hannah are dressed appropriately (Jennifer may be as well) then the lost girls are not, and vice versa.

They don't look cared for.  And perhaps its the picture but most of the lost girls don't look like their hair is clean.  It's not a matter of style, it's about a mother who looks like she took care to make sure she looked good and didn't bother to parent and make sure her daughters did as well.

For heaven’s sake, it’s a photo that appears to be at the end of a long day, where a bunch of girls who have ALWAYS had flyway hair look like - shock! Their hair is kind of limp and fuzzy. Like hair does unless you have heavy hair that’s not too oily ( hello, teens! ) or too dry, or have ten tons of spray or gel or is tied back. Hannah is put together like a grown woman who is having a party. Michelle is put together like the soon to be mother in-law of the grown woman having the party. The girls look exactly like any other set of girls going to a non-formal event that they aren’t a part of. The ONLY things that are even making them look “ not put together” at all,  is that two of them are wearing sneakers, and Johanna - who at 16 - usually seems more “put together” hair and make up and generally less awkward wise - is wearing leggings - and the littlest, at that moment, is in her socks. If you’d put boots or flats or heels on Jordyn and Johanna, just the skirt on Johanna, and shoes on Josie, they would have passed everyone’s judgy bar. I hope.
Every single time there is anything wedding related on this site there is just ALWAYS this big old class divide - some places and groups are more formal than others, that isn’t better or worse somehow. Kids, and teens, and even adults, from MANY areas and groups and ideologies and political factions wear regular school/work type outfits to events. And it’s ok. It’s ok if other people at those same events, in the same groups, decide to be more dressy. It just doesn’t matter to lots of people. That’s ok. Really. 
 

This whole conversation reminds me of the episode of 19 kids and counting where they decided to girlify teen Joy. It was hard work, but they got her all nicely coifed and made up with her clothes all smooth standing in lock-step with her big sisters. 
 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Mama Mia

[Cam]

MamaMia, agree with your post.

When my son was about seven or eight, we attended my nephew’s wedding. Son was nicely dressed and wearing dress shoes. After a couple hours drive to the Catholic ceremony then a couple more hours wait before the reception dinner, we finally finished eating, then guests were able to meander outside onto a beautiful, spacious courtyard flower garden. My son and his same-age also-dressed-up cousin spied a very large hammock hung between two huge shade trees. Their shoes immediately came off, they crawled into the hammock and his cousin (my niece) hollered, “I’m not leaving here for three days!” 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Cam

[backyard sylph]

The youngest one is 12, though, not 7 or 8. I agree; it's not much of a reflection on the girls themselves, just one part of an overall picture of them growing up without, it appears, much personal motherly attention and counsel. It's not that they needed to be "dressed up," either. It's just not outlandish or backwater, whatever that is meant to suggest? to hope for some middle ground between too much and too little; kids of this age are experiencing various internal conflicts and I wish for them all a parent who notices them individually. That's what feels missing in this photo, to me. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by backyard sylph
typo

[Travelfan]

It is unbelievable that people are saying Michelle should be dictating what her teenage children wear. Isn’t one of the main purposes of this site to say that the kids should have individual autonomy and the parents shouldn’t be so controlling of every aspect of their kids lives?  But then in this situation it’s being discussed that Michelle should have stepped in and made sure her teenage kids were dressed up to her level?!!  
 

When my kids were little my only rules were that you needed to be clean and brushed (teeth and hair). My daughter hated dressing nicely. She wanted to spend her life in shorts, tshirts, sweat pants etc. she hated dresses and having her her hair anyway except straight down. This was disappointing for me as I loved doing hair and could do all varieties of braids and such.  The night before her first day of kindergarten I asked her if she had decided what she was wearing. Her response was “nothing nice” 😂 She went to her first day in a tshirt and shorts. My kids clothing was always stain free and freshly laundered. She never looked like a ragamuffin.  When she got to middle school and everyone was into hair and make up, she wasn’t. When everyone got into name brands of clothing, she wasn’t. She continued to look like a kid for a very long time. At 14/15 she still looked about 12. Then overnight SHE changed, on her own. Suddenly she was all about fashion and her hair and make up were always on point. By 16 she looked like she was 20.  Now, at almost 20, she was just named miss fashionista in her sorority at college. I never pushed her, I let her be herself and decide how she felt comfortable.  Although nowadays I feel a bit frumpy next to her…
 

My son was the complete opposite. That kid was up and showering and putting on cologne and a clip on tie at 6 years old because he wanted to look fancy. We bought him a suit because he wanted one so badly 😂 He insisted on name brands from 1st grade on. And my kids are only a year apart so this was in the height of my daughters “nothing fancy” days. He has gone through a million different looks over the years.  
 

I’m actually glad to see that the girls are not made to dress fancy (when they don’t want to).  Anytime those poor kids can make any choices on their own and show some individuality is a good thing!  

[JermajestyDuggar]

I do hope Michelle lets the girls choose their outfits. But I’m still sad that their choices in the family closet are always skirts to the knee and shirts with sleeves that go up to the neck. If Michelle is more lax about things these days, I would love for the younger girls to sneak some forbidden things like a skirt above the knee or a sleeveless shirt. And maybe Michelle would be too tired and checked out to police it. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

For heaven’s sake, it’s a photo that appears to be at the end of a long day, where a bunch of girls who have ALWAYS had flyway hair look like - shock! Their hair is kind of limp and fuzzy. Like hair does unless you have heavy hair that’s not too oily ( hello, teens! ) or too dry, or have ten tons of spray or gel or is tied back. Hannah is put together like a grown woman who is having a party. Michelle is put together like the soon to be mother in-law of the grown woman having the party. The girls look exactly like any other set of girls going to a non-formal event that they aren’t a part of. The ONLY things that are even making them look “ not put together” at all,  is that two of them are wearing sneakers, and Johanna - who at 16 - usually seems more “put together” hair and make up and generally less awkward wise - is wearing leggings - and the littlest, at that moment, is in her socks. If you’d put boots or flats or heels on Jordyn and Johanna, just the skirt on Johanna, and shoes on Josie, they would have passed everyone’s judgy bar. I hope.
Every single time there is anything wedding related on this site there is just ALWAYS this big old class divide - some places and groups are more formal than others, that isn’t better or worse somehow. Kids, and teens, and even adults, from MANY areas and groups and ideologies and political factions wear regular school/work type outfits to events. And it’s ok. It’s ok if other people at those same events, in the same groups, decide to be more dressy. It just doesn’t matter to lots of people. That’s ok. Really. 
 

This whole conversation reminds me of the episode of 19 kids and counting where they decided to girlify teen Joy. It was hard work, but they got her all nicely coifed and made up with her clothes all smooth standing in lock-step with her big sisters. 
 

 

This isn't my hill to die on, mileage clearly varies on this.  I saw the pic and immediately felt pity for the girls since they look uncared for.  @AussieKrissy put it very well in her post with which I agree, it just made me sad.  It's not the worst thing their parents have done to them and certainly not the end of the world, that pic just looks to me like Michelle gives no shits once again.  

And yes, the varying degrees of formality thing comes up a lot here and IIRC there are usually good points on both sides.  But different levels of formality between parents and minor kids at the same event doesn't make sense to me.   And the differing levels of formality in general is by no means always a class divide.  

Definitely not the worst thing Michelle has ever done, but I look at that pic and think once again she's a shitty mom because part of parenting is teaching kids how to be appropriate at social events.  

 

[backyard sylph]

Who said anything about dictating dress? Michelle put herself together all special, and ignored the girls altogether. That's what stuck out here. And there is just a little something about Mack in this photo that suggests she hasn't been ignored, which could be fascinating, or not. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

Who said anything about dictating dress? Michelle put herself together all special, and ignored the girls altogether. That's what stuck out here. And there is just a little something about Mack in this photo that suggests she hasn't been ignored, which could be fascinating, or not. 

Well I could point out that they do dictate clothing pretty heavily. The Duggar teens dress nothing like the mainstream teens I see every day. All the mainstream teens I see live in leggings, jeans, hoodies, shorts, t shirts, crop tops, etc. many of those things are off limits to the teen Duggar girls unfortunately.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

Who said anything about dictating dress? Michelle put herself together all special, and ignored the girls altogether. That's what stuck out here. And there is just a little something about Mack in this photo that suggests she hasn't been ignored, which could be fascinating, or not. 

I was a teenager in the 80's and I remember well my dad's exasperation at my love of Guess.  He couldn't believe how much he was spending on overalls and tshirts with ripped neck lines.  Deliberately ripped jeans, etc.  But he bought them because I wanted them and he wasn't going to fight how I dressed when I was out with my friends, even though he would ask why I wanted to look like a ragamuffin, or dressed out of the rag bag.

But I was also expected to dress appropriately for family and school events.  Parents owe it to their kids to teach them to dress for the occasion, beautiful table manners, and to be well spoken so it's habit by the time they are adults.  

It's similar to the formality of speech register.  No one should expect kids to be formal all the time, but you want the skills to do it when it's expected.  

 

[Mama Mia]

28 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This isn't my hill to die on, mileage clearly varies on this.  I saw the pic and immediately felt pity for the girls since they look uncared for.  @AussieKrissy put it very well in her post with which I agree, it just made me sad.  It's not the worst thing their parents have done to them and certainly not the end of the world, that pic just looks to me like Michelle gives no shits once again.  

And yes, the varying degrees of formality thing comes up a lot here and IIRC there are usually good points on both sides.  But different levels of formality between parents and minor kids at the same event doesn't make sense to me.   And the differing levels of formality in general is by no means always a class divide.  

Definitely not the worst thing Michelle has ever done, but I look at that pic and think once again she's a shitty mom because part of parenting is teaching kids how to be appropriate at social events.  

 

Apparently this IS my hill to die on today lol, probably because I raised  a bunch of teen girls, and currently have a ton of girl granddaughters and nieces in this age range. They feel self-conscious about their looks all the time. They get acne. Their hair gets greasy. They are either too chubby or too thin or too tall or too short or the dress that fit them last month is now too tight, or they slimmed down and got some curves and now everything is baggy.

It’s fucking ridiculously hard. 

I don’t get how you are saying it’s showing Michelle is a shitty mom because she’s not teaching her daughters to dress appropriately for events, when multiple people are telling you they ARE dressed appropriately for the event. 
 

The best part about that photo, IMO, is that Mack is there, looks genuinely happy, and isn’t stuck at home. 

 

 

 

 

[Coconut Flan]

Granddaughter is a whopping 7 and daughter believes in autonomy being allowed where feasible.  As long as the kid's clothing is clean, not damaged, and weather appropriate, she's allowed freedom to choose.  Punky Brewster comes to mind.  Also her hair is a curly nightmare that she now usually does herself so it's style is quite variable.  I hope no one judges my daughter's parenting based on the sparkly skirts and LOL clothing the kid wants to wear.  

At first glance the girls all looked "within normal limits" to me.  I don't think fundies usually have what I would deem dress up showers and even if they did have one it's the adults or near adults who would dress up.  Any shower where the 12 year old is invited can't be very formal IMO.  

[Expectopatronus]

3 hours ago, backyard sylph said:

Who said anything about dictating dress? Michelle put herself together all special, and ignored the girls altogether. That's what stuck out here. And there is just a little something about Mack in this photo that suggests she hasn't been ignored, which could be fascinating, or not. 

One thing I will give Anna is that her kids have always been clean, well dressed, hair combed etc. In part, it’s easier when you don’t have 19 but I also think that Anna is a little more invested. Yes, staying with Josh is a poor parenting decision from our perspective but if she truly believes that her kids are safe that he would never harm them, then she sees staying as good parenting. I could be totally wrong but her kids never seemed as feral as the howlers and the lost girls. 
I feel like a crappy parent right now; I have Covid (triple vaxxed but still got it) and feel awful. I’m lying on the couch watching my toddler play and let her have a juice box with her lunch to give her a boost of vitamin C. She refused to eat her sandwich. Supper is going to be veggie burgers and sweet potato fries because it’s easy.