Jana Duggar 14: Child Endangerment Charges and Howlers Supporting Her Via Meme

[rainbowbabycakes]

28 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Those ratios sound absolutely horrifying. Terrible for any sort of nurturing, or even the basics of physical care —- but terrifying in case of emergency! What on earth would one person do with 11 toddlers ina fire! 

I think Texas has some of the highest ratios in the country... It's awful though. Obviously, those are the minimum, and centers can definitely choose to do better. And most accreditation groups require lower ratios as well.

We did monthly fire drills, and after a couple of times, even the 2 year olds actually do a really good job about it. But I definitely think there should usually be 2 teachers in a classroom (opening/closing/naptime are different stories). Especially in ay room where diapers need to be changed. Changing 11 diapers (or helping potty train) every 2 hours takes a lot of time, and 2 year olds are smart... It doesn't take long for them to figure out that if you're changing a diaper, they can pretty much do what they want 😆😆😆😆

I love 2 year olds, it's such a fun age, they're learning and exploring and figuring things out... but I love them in small numbers... That exploring is a giant pain when you have 11 of them, and they're dumping out every toy in the room, and climbing on things, and throwing stuff in the trash can every time you change diapers 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by rainbowbabycakes

[Anna Bolinas]

On 12/17/2021 at 9:34 PM, Bobology said:

The Duggar sons' wives could also be analyzed in terms of the show, but I don't have enough info.

I was under the impression that the wives who marry Duggars are closer to the cult than the husbands who marry Duggars. Like Kendra/the Caldwells and Lauren/the Swansons both appeared in the background of episodes of X and Counting. If I recall correctly, Abbie and her siblings were featured on the website for whatever homeschooling convention the Duggars attend. I think the show has had less of an impact for the boys' marriages, probably because the boys were not really a draw the way the four oldest daughters were; plus, it's not really culturally approved for the woman to go after the man. Like the girl isn't the one who courtposes to the boy or speaks to the boy's father about marriage. 

[clueliss]

Re the lack of control older kids vs howlers.  I wonder if moving into the TTH with more room had something to do with it as well.  Everyone crammed into a little space there was no room for all of the antics.  And they had cameras on them so hey lighten up for the cameras.

[LilMissMetaphor]

7 hours ago, rainbowbabycakes said:

I worked in daycare for years in Texas, and our ratios suck, lol

for infants (6 weeks-12 months) it's 1:4 or 2:10

Young tods (12-18 months) 1:5 or 2:13

Older tods (18-24 months) 1:9 or 2:18 (or within your room limits, they calculate the number of kids based on the the usable square footage of the room, ours capped at 2:13)

2's (24-36 months) 1:11 (or double with 2 teachers)

3's 1:15 (our center never had more than one teacher, but I'd assume it would double)

4's 1:18 (same as above)

5's 1:22 (same as above)

School age (kindergarten- 5th grade) 1:26 (not sure of the official 2 teacher ratio, ours capped at 33)

The fun part is that they base the ratio on the age that the majority of the kids in your class are, and the center I worked at for a long time took advantage of that. So as the year went on, and your kids aged up, they'd give you more... In the 2 year old room (1:11), with kids turning 3? as soon as you hit that halfway point of more kids that were 3 than 2, they'd bump you to the 1:15 ratio. It sucked. 

That is nutso.

We're 1:3 for infants, 1:5 for tods, and 1:8 for preschoolers.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy
fixed formatting double post

[ContrastingButtons]

18 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

That is nutso.

We're 1:3 for infants, 1:5 for tods, and 1:8 for preschoolers.

 

Horrifying!

In Ontario, it is 2 adults for 5 infants (under 18 months). 1 adult for 5 toddlers (18-30 months). 1 adult for 8 preschoolers (30-44 months). 1 adult for 13 Junior/Senior Kindies and 1 adult for 15 kids age 6+

[SorenaJ]

In Denmark it is 1 adult for 3 kids for the under-3s, for the over-3s it is 1 adult for 6 kids. 

In the UK it is 1:3 for under-2s, 1:4 for 2-3 year olds, and 1:8 for over-3s. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by SorenaJ

[moriah]

On 12/17/2021 at 10:31 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That's why I'm wondering if I really heard that or it was just my assumption based on his family being Italian.  IME fundies with Polish or Italian last names invariably broke from a formerly Catholic family somewhere down the line.

Unlike the Irish.  My mom's side is Irish Catholic, but plenty of people in the US have Irish last names that stem from colonial lines which were largely Protestant particularly those in Appalachia and the rest of the south.  But Italians and Poles mostly came later and from countries where protestants were very few and far between.  

 

As a person who probably has a lot of "Scotch-Irish" ancestry -- as in, Protestants who were originally settled from Scotland into Northern Ireland, married a few locals so some descendants had some Irish blood, then left for the Colonies because they didn't want to conform to the CoE.... you're right about some "Irish" last names, especially as one sees last names evolve/change in genealogy research. Even one my sister assumed was Irish was originally quite British when we went back through records.

As far as breakaway Catholics... in my own family, it happened a few generations back. They immigrated from Switzerland and Germany, but were practicing Catholics and married 3 sons of one family to three daughters of another that were all part of the same Catholic community here.

One of those double-cousins (my ancestor) married a Protestant, and that's the couple that had/raised my grandmother.  They did not actually go to church per se, and instead studied the Bible at home every Sunday.  His Protestant wife hated alcohol in all forms, and my grandmother absorbed that attitude as well.  Granny also said she did find an early form of a condom her parents used, which might explain why they seemed to stop at 5 kids and then only had one more, later on in her life, which sadly was stillborn (Granny gave me tours of the cemetery when I was a kid, her name was "Rose" but that's not on her headstone).

Granny was also very religiously conservative, and went the Southern Baptist route.  She tried her best, despite us not going to church when we started living with her, to teach me to be a "good Christian" -- though my "why" questions as I read the Bible (particularly the long lives, asking her about the contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2, etc) ended up making her finally say "Not everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally".  (Owch.)

Had their family been dealing with a Catholic/Protestant marriage and breakaway from Catholicism now, I can see them being attracted to some fundie home church gig, since even back then they chose home church rather than attend any of the many Protestant churches nearby.

[Howl]

19 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I just recently learned that there were Amish and Mennonites in IBLP/ATI, which is wildly different from Uber reformed theology.

Michael and Debi Pearl's divorced son married an Amish woman and they seem just fine with it.  I suspect subservience to the patriarch is their personal theological bar to acceptance. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

There was something of a perfect storm in the late 2000s that created extra-high levels of chaos:

- Jim Bob and Michelle were busy being famous and parenting less. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jim Bob went through a phase of working harder once he had TLC money to invest, and no trusted adult sons to help.

- The older girls were teens, and had to be allowed to spread their wings a little, or both the TV audience and their real-world friends would comment on it. Even if they were just at JTTH, they weren’t always home anymore.

- The eight boys and a girl born between 1995 and 2004 were at peak chaos-making age, and encouraged each other in their antics.

- The four younger girls were born 2005-2009, which alone would be considered crazy by most households. I think that the older girls enjoyed playing with the little girls, and understandably might have hid out in the girls’ room while the Howlers ran wild.

[neuroticcat]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

Michael and Debi Pearl's divorced son married an Amish woman and they seem just fine with it.  I suspect subservience to the patriarch is their personal theological bar to acceptance. 

That’s intriguing. I wonder what kind of Amish group she was with to get the okay for marrying a divorcee out of the community. IIRC, the Pearls have always been pretty obsessed with the Amish and lived near them. He explained that a lot of his parenting ideas came from their disciplinary approach. I imagine that’s partially true but also know that the Amish are lenient with babies and then begin training in earnest after age 2 (so obviously Pearl’s horrible baby training ideas are all his own).

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

In Denmark it is 1 adult for 3 kids for the under-3s, for the over-3s it is 1 adult for 6 kids. 

In the UK it is 1:3 for under-2s, 1:4 for 2-3 year olds, and 1:8 for over-3s. 

In the USA, it varies by state.  The best is 3:1 for infants and 15:1 for over 6 yrs.  The majority are 4:1 for infants and an average of 20:1 for over 6.

Child Care Ratio by State

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

That’s intriguing. I wonder what kind of Amish group she was with to get the okay for marrying a divorcee out of the community. IIRC, the Pearls have always been pretty obsessed with the Amish and lived near them. He explained that a lot of his parenting ideas came from their disciplinary approach. I imagine that’s partially true but also know that the Amish are lenient with babies and then begin training in earnest after age 2 (so obviously Pearl’s horrible baby training ideas are all his own).

The Schrocks are no longer Amish. His second wife, Elizabeth Schrock Pearl is ex Amish. Elizabeth’s sister married a Wilson of the Clark Wilsons. The Pearls have lots of ex Amish as humpers. They went from Amish to Pearl humpers pretty easily it seems. 

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

To add to the teacher/student ratio madness:

An Elementary Physical Education teacher can sometimes have as many as four classrooms, (with each class consisting of around 25-30 students), in the gymnasium at one time. Art, Music, Library, and Computer classes can be closed at anytime with absolutely no warning. The P.E. teacher (if lucky) will have an assistant… or be on their own. 

So a ration of about 1:100+

Elementary ages can range from 8-12, or 5-11 (Depends on the school district).

[noseybutt]

18 hours ago, Beermeet said:

 

But, if the motivation was wedding episodes and the fact the kids ( girls especially) can't be shown dating and giving heart pieces away, you get what looks good.  "Handsome" super religious dudes willing to go along with it now.  Is that at least part of what Derick meant when he said "akin to human trafficking "?

What exactly did he mean by that? 

Pure speculation here...

But my guess is that he was talking about labor trafficking. As in, coerced labor.

Many of the SAHD groups come super close to legal definitions of labor trafficking because of the coercive nature of how the adult daughters are treated, especially in the groups that may or may not have birth certificates and social security cards and/or refuse to release the documents. 

[Beermeet]

2 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Pure speculation here...

But my guess is that he was talking about labor trafficking. As in, coerced labor.

Many of the SAHD groups come super close to legal definitions of labor trafficking because of the coercive nature of how the adult daughters are treated, especially in the groups that may or may not have birth certificates and social security cards and/or refuse to release the documents. 

I've been reflecting on this.  I think he means being on the show, sharing weddings and births or no money for you.  

What you mentioned is definitely an issue but I do wonder if that is really on Dericks radar that deeply.  He was upset about Jazz being on TV as a child.  I know, that was part of it, he had a point but it got list in his vitriol.  I agree with Jazz not being on TV as she was too young to truly understand the consequences.  Same as any kid on TV that is not an actor.  

I think he means that part for sure. I'm not sure if he means more though.  

[CaptainFunderpants]

4 hours ago, Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing said:

To add to the teacher/student ratio madness:

An Elementary Physical Education teacher can sometimes have as many as four classrooms, (with each class consisting of around 25-30 students), in the gymnasium at one time. Art, Music, Library, and Computer classes can be closed at anytime with absolutely no warning. The P.E. teacher (if lucky) will have an assistant… or be on their own. 

So a ration of about 1:100+

Elementary ages can range from 8-12, or 5-11 (Depends on the school district).

Obviously anger isn't at you, but on behalf of the PE teachers 😡🦌

[rainbowbabycakes]

5 hours ago, Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing said:

To add to the teacher/student ratio madness:

An Elementary Physical Education teacher can sometimes have as many as four classrooms, (with each class consisting of around 25-30 students), in the gymnasium at one time. Art, Music, Library, and Computer classes can be closed at anytime with absolutely no warning. The P.E. teacher (if lucky) will have an assistant… or be on their own. 

So a ration of about 1:100+

Elementary ages can range from 8-12, or 5-11 (Depends on the school district).

The elementary school I work at now has 2 classes at a time in each gym, so the teacher has 40-50 or so kids by himself. It's chaos, especially with the little ones. I went in as a 1:1 para with a boy in kindergarten for specials, and tried to help the coach as much as I could 

[noseybutt]

4 hours ago, Beermeet said:

I've been reflecting on this.  I think he means being on the show, sharing weddings and births or no money for you.  

What you mentioned is definitely an issue but I do wonder if that is really on Dericks radar that deeply.  He was upset about Jazz being on TV as a child.  I know, that was part of it, he had a point but it got list in his vitriol.  I agree with Jazz not being on TV as she was too young to truly understand the consequences.  Same as any kid on TV that is not an actor.  

I think he means that part for sure. I'm not sure if he means more though.  

Yeah, it makes sense that he would be filtering it through his experience of having a wife who was not compensated directly by the reality show.

If that is what he was referencing, though, it is strange to me that he blames JB and not the show. The shows/networks have been endlessly manipulative and strategic in terms of filming families that live in other states than CA, NY, etc.

ETA It is also interesting that Derrick used the term "human trafficking" which has been all the rage in evangelical/fundamentalist circles. Didn't Trump convene an anti-trafficking task force of some type early in his presidency? With someone as useful (cough) as Ivanka as one of the players? Don'tgetmegoing at the craziness I have seen in my local area with mega churches "fundraising" for trafficking and the money going to---well, not sure where the money goes but I can tell you it doesn't go to the legit programs. The term "human trafficking" is used for both labor and sex trafficking, and I would guess Derrick was being intentionally vague.
 

Edited December 20, 2021 by noseybutt

[FleeJanaFree]

I took his human trafficking comment to mean he was upset JB was getting all the money while the ‘stars’, the daughters, didn’t get jack unless JB felt they could be rewarded after marriage with a house, etc. 

it is an eye brow raiser though. I suppose ‘child labor’ would have been more appropriate JB my example but he definitely said human trafficking. Is Derrick alluding to the cult all covering for each other - ‘midwives’, ‘medic Corp’,  the shady perv cop, etc? I wish he would elaborate .

[just_ordinary]

On 12/18/2021 at 1:36 PM, Italiangirl said:

@nelliebelle1197 can you explain a little bit the difference between these groups? I have a hard time trying to understand where they differ, cause I have no frame of reference from here. Thanks 🥰

To me the biggest difference between VF and IBLP are some of the theological core beliefs. They come out at completely different points of the spectrum regarding salvation. To me, that’s pretty major and I am still baffled JB was fine with Ben because of it. Maybe because he was so young and JB was sure he could mold him. Why his parents were fine with it I don’t know. For people that believe their reading of the bible is absolute that’s a massive difference- or so you would think. 
It shows that it’s not really about theology or religion at all. Those cults thrive on other things and they are pretty similar across the board. The religious aspect is just a nice selling point. I find many of them so far away from the bible (by their cherry picking and not having a good way of dealing with inconstancies) and Christian values I personally, wouldn’t not say they are real Christians or at least the worst of kind of pretenders.

Edited December 20, 2021 by just_ordinary

[Mama Mia]

9 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

To me the biggest difference between VF and IBLP are some of the theological core beliefs. They come out at completely different points of the spectrum regarding salvation. To me, that’s pretty major and I am still baffled JB was fine with Ben because of it. Maybe because he was so young and JB was sure he could mold him. Why his parents were fine with it I don’t know. For people that believe their reading of the bible is absolute that’s a massive difference- or so you would think. 
It shows that it’s not really about theology or religion at all. Those cults thrive on other things and they are pretty similar across the board. The religious aspect is just a nice selling point. I find many of them so far away from the bible (by their cherry picking and not having a good way of dealing with inconstancies) and Christian values I personally, wouldn’t not say they are real Christians or at least the worst of kind of pretenders.

Remember too that Jessa and Ben’s relationship was outed on Social Media by some aunt or something — well before they appeared to be ready, with a weird little tagline announcement added by JB at the end of an episode that almost sounded like something he was ashamed of. It’s possible they were in the getting to know you stage and this pushed the courtship-marriage inevitability train significantly ahead. 

I don’t really understand the differences - but recall that Jessa and Ben both said that discussing and debating theology was one of the things that drew them together/closer. Jessa is smart, I could see this being a real interest - she’s also clearly a leader type. So JB /Michelle may have felt that the combination of Ben’s youth, puppy like devotion, (usually) relaxed attitude, and Jessa’s strong personality would get Ben where they wanted. 

They really must have just gave up eventually with Jeremy - a full-grown man, who had been on his own for years, with a super assertive personality — with meek, follower Jinger? There’s no way they wouldn’t know that she’d believe whatever Jeremy did. 

 

[Idlewild]

We’ve seen how arrogant and conceited JB is- he no doubt believed he had cowed Ben and Derick and he would do the same with Jeremy. The latter provided a good storyline for what was becoming a boring show- he was a soccer player turned pastor, and lived out of town. They remain a popular couple with the fans who seem to think Jinger is independent. To be fair to JB ( not sure why I should be, but bear with me) he was probably astute enough to recognise that Jeremy wanted to be famous and JB could offer him that- he probably thought that would be enough to keep him in line as JB was clearly calling the shots about the TV show.

Im sure none of them were remunerated properly, but Derick does conveniently forget he gave up his job at Walmart and lived in relative luxury as a ‘missionary’ and then a student. They also flew home to the US quite a bit and he used his platform as Mr Duggar to grift for donations for several years.

[neuroticcat]

I wonder, too, if the Jeremy and Derick presented as more passive and deferential during the courting stage. I mean, it certainly seemed that way on TV, especially for Jeremy. Maybe he played up the conservative things they had in common and knew that once they were married and out of state they’d be free. Derick seems to be more of a gradual awakening.

I think Ben may pull out of it too as he gets older and real life kicks in, because his family of origin seemed a little less steeped in the cult.

[Bobology]

10 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I wonder, too, if the Jeremy and Derick presented as more passive and deferential during the courting stage.

I've also wondered about this. As someone else mentioned, Ben may have been relatively passive because he was so young. But I think Jeremy, who was quite proud of his responses on the courting quiz, pulled some wool over on JB. From what I've seen I can't stand Jeremy, but if he pulled some shenanigans on the quiz I kind of like that. He is his own brand of BS, though, just different from JB.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Jinger and Jeremy’s book says that they almost broke up over theological differences. Jeremy said he and Jim Bob “disagreed on free will and predestination.” There was a lot of discussion between Jeremy and Jim Bob when Jeremy visited the family, and Jinger’s brothers also questioned him about his theology. Jim Bob continued questioning Jeremy over the phone for more than four months. 

Then Jim Bob invited Jeremy to a conference. (They don’t specify, but it was clearly an IBLP event.) Jinger (who had been getting negative comments about Jeremy’s worldliness) got cold feet and decided to tell her father to tell Jeremy that she had decided not to start a relationship. She always claims that they were not in a relationship prior to the courtship, even though everyone’s talking about whether they’re compatible enough to get married. It’s ridiculous.

Anyway, Ben and Jessa intervened, and Jinger had a brief moment of self-awareness about what a people pleaser she is, and the not-yet-relationship was back on. Jim Bob and Jeremy spent over seven hours talking theology.(Michelle was present, and Jinger joined the conversation in progress, but it’s not clear if they said anything.) The same day, Jim Bob heard someone singing Jeremy’s favorite hymn and took it as a sign. He and Michelle spoke with a pastor about who told them that it was okay, and they gave Jeremy the green light.

TL, DR - the Duggars took the theological differences very seriously, but ultimately decided not to stand in the way of Jinger marrying a man she loved, who was a devout Christian.