(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[Not that josh's mom]

Anna's parents were in Arkansas for their son's wedding. It would have seemed strange if they didn't go to Jim Bob's. They were there socially not as supporters, I think. Probably I could have found an excuse not to go, but it may have been one of the very few social things Anna has been able to do and they were there for her. Hard to understand the how those families think.

[patsymae]

18 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Jordan Turpin is an exceptional young woman.  She had older sisters and brothers who didn’t try to escape. (The one who did, Jennifer at age 14, failed.)  

I am not trying to defend Anna, but I think in general we should avoid pointing at the exceptional “success” and asking why others can’t be more like that.  Not everyone is equally strong, smart, lucky.  If she had been one of the Turpins, Anna would have stayed and be starved and beaten.  (One of the Turpin sisters between Jennifer and Jordan was a sort of “Anna.”  At their parents’ sentencing she was the only one who said she wanted to see her parents again.) 

My impression of Jordan Turpin is that in addition to being exceptionally smart, she had the good fortune of having some protection/guidance from Jennifer and to make good use of it. She was not “brainwashed.”   Her parents terrorized and tortured her and her siblings, but they don’t seem to have succeeded in making most of the kids believe that what the parents did was right.  Maybe the physical abuse and starvation caused them to question.  Anna seems incapable of questioning.

I have said before that I hold Anna responsible for not leaving especially because her choice to stay after the Ashley Madison scandal brought more kids into the family.   However, I don’t think it is fair to say, “If Jordan could leave her nightmare parents, why can’t Anna leave Josh?” The situations and the people are very different.

Jordan felt in fear of her life.  If she could escape, maybe things would get better. They could hardly get worse.

Anna’s situation is tolerable for her.  It does not appear to be perceived as abusive by her.  She does not seem to be particularly courageous, though she seems to be pretty stubborn. She is not particularly bright.  She does not seem to recognize that her kids are at risk.  Things could get worse, and that may be her greatest fear, to turn a “bad thing into a disaster.” (We may think it is already a disaster, but apparently she doesn’t.)

Again, none of this excuses her, if her children are hurt.  I am just trying to examine some of the differences between Jordan and Anna.

I get what you are saying about the comparisons--it's like, Thomas Cromwell did pretty well for himself (up until the beheading thing), so why did other people in Tudor England cave? 
But aside from not comparing her to other people in bad circumstances, I have zero sympathy, or even tolerance, for Anna (and I was the idiot rooting for her when they lived in DC.) Even if she has the IQ of a gnat and all the associated brainwashing, she is choosing to act like the Duggar royalty she thinks she is.
OK, I'm making a liar out of myself by bringing up a comparison (it's the wine lol). If she were a poor Black or Latino mother of 7 who was married to a serial child sexual abuser now accused of downloading what an experienced investigator says is "among the worst" he has ever seen, continues to pop out kids by said abuser, keeps her kids in a converted warehouse that has no windows,  has no education or job skills or independent means of supporting herself and her family and apparently no interest in acquiring them, and lives only on the beneficence of said pedophile's family who can cut that off at any time, how soon would it be before CPS had her ass in court?

[PinkGreyBrown]

I'd bet that among the Duggar inner circle this is being referred to as 'Josh's porn problem', with attendant downplaying, distancing, & minimizing. Also probably at least a little bit of disingenuous-or-not perplexity about 'liberals are fine with pornography, this must really be because they hate Christians'. It's not about whether they understand or not, it's about them not wanting to understand. Motivated misunderstanding.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, patsymae said:

I get what you are saying about the comparisons--it's like, Thomas Cromwell did pretty well for himself (up until the beheading thing), so why did other people in Tudor England cave? 
But aside from not comparing her to other people in bad circumstances, I have zero sympathy, or even tolerance, for Anna (and I was the idiot rooting for her when they lived in DC.) Even if she has the IQ of a gnat and all the associated brainwashing, she is choosing to act like the Duggar royalty she thinks she is.
OK, I'm making a liar out of myself by bringing up a comparison (it's the wine lol). If she were a poor Black or Latino mother of 7 who was married to a serial child sexual abuser now accused of downloading what an experienced investigator says is "among the worst" he has ever seen, continues to pop out kids by said abuser, keeps her kids in a converted warehouse that has no windows,  has no education or job skills or independent means of supporting herself and her family and apparently no interest in acquiring them, and lives only on the beneficence of said pedophile's family who can cut that off at any time, how soon would it be before CPS had her ass in court?

I agree that Anna shouldn’t get a “pass” because she is white and “Christian.” I also agree that a minority person leading the sort of life she leads (unemployed, with a spouse who is in trouble with the law, popping out kid after kid) would be more harshly judged by the white middle-class than she is.

However, I am not so sure that CPS would be involved unless there were a report, and even then, living in a windowless house and being supported by your father-in-law aren’t reasons to “haul [a person’s] ass in court.”   I am also not so sure that CPS would penalize a woman (of any race or background) for not leaving the father of her children if there was no evidence of abuse.

Anna actually has some education—at least on paper.  I believe she has an associate degree or some sort of certificate in Early Childhood Education from some fundie online college.  (Someone else who remembers more clearly can probably tell us.)  

Since her kids look cared for, fed, clean, etc. I don’t think she would get in trouble for anything that we know she has done, even if she were a POC.  At most, she might be scrutinized more closely if she weren’t a “white Christian.”

Again, I am not trying to “defend” Anna.  I do think she is part of the problem, and I worry about her kids.

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

Just a question did anyone on the Turpin thread (if there is one) do a recap of the interview. I don’t think I can stomach the triggers watching it but I think I could read a recap. 

There is a Turpin thread, but only some summaries of the highlights of the interview, no recap.

[Mama Mia]

15 hours ago, patsymae said:

I get what you are saying about the comparisons--it's like, Thomas Cromwell did pretty well for himself (up until the beheading thing), so why did other people in Tudor England cave? 
But aside from not comparing her to other people in bad circumstances, I have zero sympathy, or even tolerance, for Anna (and I was the idiot rooting for her when they lived in DC.) Even if she has the IQ of a gnat and all the associated brainwashing, she is choosing to act like the Duggar royalty she thinks she is.
OK, I'm making a liar out of myself by bringing up a comparison (it's the wine lol). If she were a poor Black or Latino mother of 7 who was married to a serial child sexual abuser now accused of downloading what an experienced investigator says is "among the worst" he has ever seen, continues to pop out kids by said abuser, keeps her kids in a converted warehouse that has no windows,  has no education or job skills or independent means of supporting herself and her family and apparently no interest in acquiring them, and lives only on the beneficence of said pedophile's family who can cut that off at any time, how soon would it be before CPS had her ass in court?

From what we have seen, and know? They wouldn’t. Assuming they interviewed the kids, as I believe the court ordered, and assuming those interviews didn’t find anything sketchy —- she isn’t doing anything that rises to the level of CPS involvement no matter who she is. The kids aren’t neglected in any visible sense. They seem well-nourished and healthy. They aren’t living on a park bench or in a crowded car. Any physical punishment she does likely fits within the guidelines of their state (which allows kids to be hit with boards in public school - so seems pretty damn lenient in what is allowed ) The court has only required supervised contact with their father, not a total ban, and as far as we know that’s what has happened. They have aunts/uncles/grandparents in the vicinity if Anna needs to go somewhere, There’s zero surface reason they’d be required to have a CPS plan. 
I’ve worked with CPS as a social worker helping to design programs —- Anna and family would be soooooo far down the list, regardless of skin color or religion…..

Now once Pedo*dad is released, if there are any restrictions on his interactions with the kids, and she allows him to break them —- that’s a reason to step in. But I think she’s just one of those women who loves her man far more than her kids and will put him over them. And I know she’s been brainwashed etc etc —- but I don’t think she’d lose all the people in her life if she left him. I don’t think she’d lose approval of the community, I don’t think she’d even lose the support of (most) of his own family.

 She  has religion as an excuse to try to justify her actions, but I think — given her behavior since his arrest— she’d be acting exactly the same no matter who or what her wider community was.

And I definitely don’t get comparing her to the Turpins. She has a huge variety of resources and knowledge of the world and her own siblings have chosen different paths. 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Mama Mia

[nokidsmom]

20 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I think I felt bad for her the first time around. I don't know how much she knew when she went into that marriage but she honestly did seem quite shaken up. I was willing to somewhat give her a pass. I'm done. If she loved her kids so much, she would walk over glass or hot coals for them. 

This was also my feelings about Anna the first time around and that includes both the molestations and Ashley Madison, since both scandals came so close together.  It solidified my belief that Anna had no real idea of Joshley's past when she married him.   I think she basically knew that he did some things he wasn't supposed to but either never got or understood any details about what he really did. 

I could see she was pretty upset about what had happened especially when she expressed her wish for things to go back to what they were "before".  I could understand her feelings but it also made me a bit wary that she would be willing to overlook the scandals, carry on as if nothing happened, continue to have children with Josh, thereby setting her up for the next time Joshley screwed up and I strongly believed there would be a "next time".   I don't think she ever considered the possibility that if he messed up again that her decision to stick by him, would come back to bite her later on, both personally and publicly.

Well, the "next time" is here and honestly I don't envy her but she had her warning shots, so to speak.   I get that she might sit there and smile for the cameras while Joshley's fate is up in the air.  I get that she wants to think that her husband is innocent.   But I am not willing to give her a pass this time.   The fact still remains that she chose to stay with him, bring more kids into the world with him, a person who is majorly effed up.  It just looks very, very bad for her but especially for her kids.

ETA: And I speak as someone who avoided marriage with someone who turned out to be majorly troubled.  Without going into details, I decided against taking back someone in spite of pressure to do so because I believed that, without serious help which he was not getting, he was a risk to me and to any future hildren we would have.  I still cared about him and it was very difficult to realize what was really going on with him.   But I had my own welfare at stake here as well as the future kids.   If I took him back and things went sideways I would have myself to blame (and others would too) and it would be deserved.  I don't think Anna realized this when she took him back and I doubt she still does. 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by nokidsmom
ETA

[Gobsmacked]

In a parallel world Anna’s mother would be quietly chatting to her about the exit plan her immediate family have organised for her immediately Josh has been imprisoned.  Sadly that won’t happen although we can still hope. 

[Antipatriarch]

20 hours ago, ven said:

My thoughts: is it possible that anna is having a little internal party?  now that she is close to getting rid of josh without loosing money nor respect nor her support system,  no more babies !!! Maybe that girl smiles lovingly at him and thinks good riddance you bastard. I can somehow not imagin he was not abusive and controlling to her. 

 

Quote

"Oh, my dear d'Artagnan," resumed Aramis, giving to his voice a slight tone of bitterness, "trust me! Conceal your wounds when you have any; silence is the last joy of the unhappy. Beware of giving anyone the clue to your griefs; the curious suck our tears as flies suck the blood of a wounded hart."

-- The Three Musketeers

 

[SweetLaurel]

7 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

In a parallel world Anna’s mother would be quietly chatting to her about the exit plan her immediate family have organised for her immediately Josh has been imprisoned.  Sadly that won’t happen although we can still hope. 

What could Anna's mother do for an exit plan that JB isn't doing for her now?  How could she support 8 people?  He can, apparently and obviously.  If Josh goes to jail, Anna is probably in the best place for her.   I doubt her lifestyle will change at all, other than not having a kid ever other year for a while.  Or hopefully forever.  

[nokidsmom]

5 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

In a parallel world Anna’s mother would be quietly chatting to her about the exit plan her immediate family have organised for her immediately Josh has been imprisoned.  Sadly that won’t happen although we can still hope. 

I would like to think that through all this Anna is quietly planning her next steps if Josh goes to prison, in spite of the smiles and the leaks about what she "thinks".   Entirely possible that she is seething inside and has had enough.   Perhaps the trial will be framed as what finally woke her up.    I don't think this is a likely scenario at all, more likely she will double down.   But maybe she will suprise everyone.

[Gobsmacked]

1 hour ago, Antipatriarch said:

 

 

Very wise. I wish I had known this during my last involvement with my Narc sister. 

1 hour ago, SweetLaurel said:

What could Anna's mother do for an exit plan that JB isn't doing for her now?  How could she support 8 people?  He can, apparently and obviously.  If Josh goes to jail, Anna is probably in the best place for her.   I doubt her lifestyle will change at all, other than not having a kid ever other year for a while.  Or hopefully forever.  

Anna has at least two siblings who wanted to help her after Ashley madison. We haven’t a clue what Anna’s family think. They may be remaining calm for now but like a graceful swan family be furiously paddling in secret with plans AB and C. We can always hope. 

[Ilovebrownies]

The plan for Anna should be to get away from Arkansas, at least away from the Duggar House.  Her abuse will only continue there without Josh.  She needs to put her big girl panties on and support her family on her own without  anyone telling her what to do and say.  Dreams, I know.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Ilovebrownies

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

I thought I read somewhere that one of her sisters married into money?  Not that anyone should feel obligated to support a sibling with seven kids, even if the spouse was okay with it, which is a big "if".

Anna has something that most fundie women in a similar situation do not. Media marketability. If she breaks away from her in-laws, she can do interviews. She can write a tell-all. She has speaking experience; she can use that skill to help other women. Maybe not sustainable in the long term, but it could jump start a new life.

This would take an uncommon amount of bravery, and not personally knowing Anna, I have no idea if she has this in her. But her options are limited. She can try to strike out on her own and get a job. This might be tough with seven young kids, one of whom is a breast feeding infant. She's in her 30's and has never worked outside the home, so she's not likely to make much at first. But other women have done it and she'd qualify for benefits.

She can dump Josh and find a new fundie husband. Perhaps a widower with money and his own brood looking for a helpmeet to manage the household. Seems a long shot.

The superficially easy thing would be to stay under Jim Bob's umbrella of protection. He has money, and a huge house that's less and less needed for his own family, or she could stay in the storage unit which has been her home. She would not need to work, and not have to worry about risking Jim Bob's wrath (which might be something she's very afraid of). But what a terrible price to pay should she go this route. Josh will not be in prison forever, and his perversions aren't going away. She has little daughters and her oldest two children will probably be having their own kids within the next 10 years.

Josh hasn't been convicted yet but once he is, Anna needs to face the reality of her situation and hopefully think about what's best for her kids. As well as for herself. Does she really want to be married to this nasty piece of shit for the next 50 years?

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

This was also my feelings about Anna the first time around and that includes both the molestations and Ashley Madison, since both scandals came so close together.  It solidified my belief that Anna had no real idea of Joshley's past when she married him.   I think she basically knew that he did some things he wasn't supposed to but either never got or understood any details about what he really did.

Anna's father approved Josh.  Anna didn't need to think beyond that and, I'm guessing, didn't want to.  Even if she did have misgivings, she knew she wasn't going to become engaged before she turned 20 so she may have had a sense of time on her side to assess.  Then - it's her 20th birthday, having a meal at Gator Landing, and Josh turns up with a ring.  What was she supposed to do if she wasn't sure?  Her parents knew about the setup - it would have been apparent once they left the table and Josh appeared.  I don't think she had it within her to tell him maybe later.

Still, I think she knew something about his past either before or after she was engaged.  Didn't her marriage vows include "as is healthy" along with her promise to obey?  Would that have been added without a reason?

She has more than enough information to know what she's dealing with now.  We'll see what happens if he's convicted.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I expect Anna to leave Josh either after he's convicted or after he's in prison.

[imokit]

11 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I expect Anna to leave Josh either after he's convicted or after he's in prison.

I don't.

Josh in prison is a win for Anna.  She stands by her man, looks godly to the community, continues living in her own home, being supported by JB, having a nearby extended family to help with childcare and her life doesn't change much with the exception of a bigger break between children.

She leaves him, then the bank of JB shuts.  She needs to sort out work and accommodation and move.  She becomes a proper single parent.  She looses the family childcare, (though one could argue Mac is old enough by fundie standards).  Josh won't be able to pay decent child support (likely ever, certainly not from jail), whereas JB will continue ensuring they have enough.  JB will keep Anna happy while she's doing her part and toeing the family line, she leaves, she gets cut off.

If I were Anna, I wouldn't be divorcing Josh now. (I would have done it at the first scandal), but in her situation staying makes far more sense.  What would be more interesting and sneaky of her is to contemplate leaving around the time of Josh's future release.  The older ones will be old and potentially self sufficient.  Madyson is likely to be old enough for school, there won't be a baby at that point.  Childcare bills will be minimal as kids school age and old enough to mind the littles.  She'll be in a much better financial position and perhaps mentally better too if she leaves if for a few years.

To clarify - I don't think she'll leave then either.  She hasn't left yet, she's not going to leave at all.  But at this point the best time for her to leave would be around Josh's release date and not now.

[Tatar-tot]

3 hours ago, SweetLaurel said:

What could Anna's mother do for an exit plan that JB isn't doing for her now?  How could she support 8 people?  He can, apparently and obviously.  If Josh goes to jail, Anna is probably in the best place for her.   I doubt her lifestyle will change at all, other than not having a kid ever other year for a while.  Or hopefully forever.  

Anna’s mother has no financial resources to hatch an exit plan.  If her mother did, I think the scenario we are currently watching would also include a divorce attorney representing Anna.  The problem now is that Anna has everything to gain if she was a bit more strategic playing her cards.  Instead she has the barn family and CP husband.  

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, imokit said:

To clarify - I don't think she'll leave then either.  She hasn't left yet, she's not going to leave at all.  But at this point the best time for her to leave would be around Josh's release date and not now.

I agree completely.  If she didn’t leave when the Ashley Madison scandal broke, and she hasn’t left yet, she may as well wait until Josh gets out.

With a newborn and at least one other kid in diapers, this is not the right time for anyone to start a new life.  Ideally, she would take the next five years or so to set aside a little money and explore ways to make it without Josh.  I don’t think she will.

Given what we know of her, I am sure that if Anna realizes that Josh is going to prison, she plans to wait for him, write to him, visit as appropriate, etc. She will raise the children to “Pray for poor Daddy,” and prepare to be a good doormat helpmeet when he returns.

However, there is always the possibility that the relief of living without Josh for five or more years may help her reconsider her situation.  (I had a friend who was in a terrible marriage but never thought of divorce as an option until her husband started commuting to another city. Having him away from Monday to Friday showed her how wonderful life could be without him. When he finally finished the project and was going to be home all week, she asked for a divorce.)  

We can hope —for the kids’ sake as well as Anna’s—that she will recognize their life is better without Josh, that she will develop some sense of personal agency, some sense that she can be a good woman and not be married to him.  Five years from now she will have better options, and Josh himself may not want to come back.  We can only hope.

[3KidsAndStopped]

I hope this is the case. What worries me a little is who Anna's headship will  be if/when Josh goes to prison. Will it revert back to Pa Keller? Or JImbob? Neither of these options seem particularly beneficial to Anna; one married her off to Josh, the other raised him. Has Anna's brother said anything? (Was it Daniel that publicly ripped Josh last time) 

[Idlewild]

I think Anna has painted herself into a corner. She must have known for some time what kind of person Josh is but instead of cutting her losses when she had a few children she doubled down on the godly martyr wife and stuck with her plan to be Michelle 2.0.

Let me be clear I hold Josh wholly accountable for his family’s predicament- aided and abetted in no small part by JB & Michelle. 
Anna did seem to love the Duggar lifestyle- the fame, the comfortable living and being told how wonderful she is. Now even if she has changed her mind she has 7 children, no job and has come to rely on Duggar support. Her children are constantly around their cousins, aunts and uncles and wrenching them away from all they’ve ever known will be hideous for them. 
The only way she could keep her family in anything like the material comfort they’ve come to know is by airing her dirty laundry in a tell all. Her kids have had precious little privacy as it is- the impact of mummy dishing the dirt on daddy- awful. 
I’ve never liked Anna and nothing she has said or done over the years has changed that - but by god what a shit life she’s ended up with. 

[Angelface]

I tend to agree that Anna has painted herself into a corner and has little likelihood of leaving Josh in the immediate future. However, the longer his prison sentence the more hope I have that she might gain sufficient strength to change her situation. A long sentence ( over 5 years) gives her time. Time to adjust to being without Josh, time to adapt to a new family routine, time for her children to grow and time for herself.  She will have the freedom to just be…no longer having to work out what Josh wants her to be and feeling that she somehow never succeeds in being enough for him. I hope that eventually she manages to equip herself with the necessary skills and money to be in a position to leave him if she ever chooses to in the future. The eldest three children will all be teenagers when Josh returns (assuming a guilty verdict and at least a five year sentence) and, no matter how much she prays, life will never return to how it was before Josh was charged. 
Obviously this is all based on an assumption of Josh’s guilt and conviction which may not be the “done deal” that we at FJ anticipate. 

[gustava]

Even after watching her son murder Ahmaud Arbery, Travis McMichael's mother was stunned that he was actually convicted.  I think Anna, unless she actually sees the videos, will be the same way.  Even if she does come to doubt her marriage, as others have said, she's painted herself into a corner.  Assuming Josh goes to prison, she will have the best of all worlds:  continue to accept his innocence, be without him, and live in relative comfort.  No reason for her to leave.

[Satan'sFortress]

52 minutes ago, Angelface said:

A long sentence ( over 5 years) gives her time. Time to adjust to being without Josh, time to adapt to a new family routine, time for her children to grow and time for herself.  

Hopefully time for the lord to put it on her heart to separate from Josh. That is the only way I can see her ever leaving.

[nokidsmom]

18 hours ago, imokit said:

If I were Anna, I wouldn't be divorcing Josh now. (I would have done it at the first scandal), but in her situation staying makes far more sense.  What would be more interesting and sneaky of her is to contemplate leaving around the time of Josh's future release. 

From a purely practical and financial point of view, yeah, staying makes more sense until the kids are older and she can improve her financial situation.  Right now she has a baby plus younger children, might be better to remain where she is until her energies are freed up to (possibly) consider her options.   In the meantime, she has housing, financial support, help with the kids, the basics are covered.  The only thing will be out of her hair is Josh as much as she will miss him.

57 minutes ago, Angelface said:

I tend to agree that Anna has painted herself into a corner and has little likelihood of leaving Josh in the immediate future. However, the longer his prison sentence the more hope I have that she might gain sufficient strength to change her situation. A long sentence ( over 5 years) gives her time. Time to adjust to being without Josh, time to adapt to a new family routine, time for her children to grow and time for herself.

When Josh was in Jesus Jail it was only going to be for a few months.   This time, assuming he's convicted, he will be away for years so Anna will have to plan for the long term.  She likely won't start out this way but she might find, perhaps in spite of herself, that as time goes on life is easier without him.   We don't know how things were before the molestations/Ashley Madison but since then it had to be very hard to deal with the lack of trust and worry about what he was up to.  For six years, that had to be exhausting.  She might find that with him in jail, she doesn't have to worry about any of that and how freeing that is.   She doesn't know that now, only time with him away will give her that.