(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[Bad Wolf]

I hope he pleads. I can't imagine being a juror and having to sit through the evidence. Would they have to see it? Either way, they will learn more about CSA than anyone needs to know. And it will stay with them. Do they have counseling for the jurors? I would need it. Damn Josh. The effects of his actions are far reaching.

[ToriAmos]

Does any one know the how this compares to what happened with Bret Alan Smith (?) and the Mortons?  The Mortons are full-on but had no trouble cutting him off and obtaining a divorce for Katie, and there was certainly no legal/moral support. Though his parents still defend him iirc.

The other case was Kelly Brown Bradrick, but I don't think anyone ever knew why that divorce was sanctioned.

So there is a precedent for cutting someone off in these cases, if the crime is severe enough. Which may mean they honestly don't believe he did it, or are just coming to terms with that now and covering as they do so.

[Idlewild]

The thing is, JB and M don’t think they have done anything wrong. From the statement they put out after Josh was charged, they think they are awesome parents and still have a role to play as role models for Christians. They haven’t  closed down their social media or kept a low profile. They didn’t voluntarily give up the show and probably think they should still be on TV.

To some extent they  are supported by their humpers in this who have gone from bleating ‘childhood curiosity that happened 15 years ago’ to ‘ well they raised 19:children and only one is a dangerous criminal’.

Michelle made a robo call insinuating that allowing trans women to use public toilets would lead to molestation of children- all the time knowing her son had molested a young child. Where I come from it’s called brass neck - and these 2 are solid brass.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Idlewild

[Bluebirdbluebell]

9 hours ago, Not that josh's mom said:

So even after the pleas, its more than a month to the trial? Dang! This really is going on forever!

Yes, and it could be even longer. Here's a prediction made by Duggar Data; she thinks the trial will be moved to after Christmas.

[Idlewild]

24 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Yes, and it could be even longer. Here's a prediction made by Duggar Data; she thinks the trial will be moved to after Christmas.

Again, I’m not a US lawyer but the excuse that it is ‘too near Christmas’ isn’t really going to be valid is it?? 
I understood all the defence applications had been heard and denied. The trial was originally set for July- the defence were given 4 extra months to prepare. They may be pushing for a delay but IME they’d have to show good reason for not being ready after all this time- the most likely excuse would be their expert witness is either not available or has raised issues that need further enquiries. 

[Exchange Atheist]

Not a US lawyer either, but I would also be surprised if they delay the trial just because of Christmas. The Defense has known the dates for so long, I can’t really see a "but it’s Christmas and I booked a vacation" argument flying. Even a civil law court would probably not be amused by such a request at this point. 

[EmCatlyn]

On the subject of why no one seems to have cared that Josh would be separated from his children when he went to “Jesus Jail” after the Ashley Madison scandal, I believe it was believed that the separation would help Josh heal and turn back to Jesus.  The same cannot be said about his being in jail pending his case being tried.

The big concern this time around was to get him out of jail. The defense brought up the kids because their (presumed) love and need for their father helped the argument for letting Josh out on bond.  In addition, it supports the narrative that Josh is a good family man and the case is all a mistake.

Regarding Anna not wanting Josh too near when he went to Jesus Jail, I am pretty sure that is not reason he went out of state for his “treatment.”  As others have pointed out, the Duggars wanted a program run by people who shared their belief system.  They were not looking for a secular program.  I believe they may have chosen this particular one because JB & M knew the guy who ran it and had visited the program in the past.  They may also have thought Josh would have more privacy if he didn’t go to one of the fundie programs than were closer to home.  (I well remember the frenzy when it was discovered and eventually confirmed that Josh was at RU.)  

Lastly, my impression of Anna is that she is just resigned to her life with Josh and can’t imagine an alternative.  Being his wife is at the core of her sense of identity.  Maybe if he goes to prison, she will get a chance to rethink her situation, but we shouldn’t count on it.

[Topaz]

9 hours ago, ToriAmos said:

Does any one know the how this compares to what happened with Bret Alan Smith (?) and the Mortons?  The Mortons are full-on but had no trouble cutting him off and obtaining a divorce for Katie, and there was certainly no legal/moral support. Though his parents still defend him iirc.

The other case was Kelly Brown Bradrick, but I don't think anyone ever knew why that divorce was sanctioned.

So there is a precedent for cutting someone off in these cases, if the crime is severe enough. Which may mean they honestly don't believe he did it, or are just coming to terms with that now and covering as they do so.

In the S’Morton case Alan had perpetrated the abuse and the charges included incest. So it was all (literally) much closer to home. I’m pretty sure he ended up pleading guilty too as I don’t remember there being a trial. Even so his parents still didn’t accept it. 

The Mortons, including the wives that are Alan’s sisters, stood by Katie. As did. Bethany Lane the only one of the older group of Smith children who didn’t marry a Morton. They also all cut off their parents although I don’t know if relations have thawed since particularly with Sitara’s death. Although I was still surprised that Katie actually divorced him. 

[mpheels]

Scheduling the trial around the holidays is a bigger issue for a jury than for Josh and his legal team. It’s difficult to seat a jury under normal circumstances. Add in jurors travel schedules, and it gets even harder. As a general rule, potential jurors can reschedule for a later date or get dismissed altogether if they can show proof of airfare or other non-refundable travel that coincides with the expected trial timeline. 
 

As this is a relatively high profile case and a sensitive/disturbing topic, they will need as many potential jurors as possible to get a full jury in a timely manner.

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, ToriAmos said:

Does any one know the how this compares to what happened with Bret Alan Smith (?) and the Mortons?  The Mortons are full-on but had no trouble cutting him off and obtaining a divorce for Katie, and there was certainly no legal/moral support. Though his parents still defend him iirc.

The other case was Kelly Brown Bradrick, but I don't think anyone ever knew why that divorce was sanctioned.

So there is a precedent for cutting someone off in these cases, if the crime is severe enough. Which may mean they honestly don't believe he did it, or are just coming to terms with that now and covering as they do so.

With the smith's and the Mortons he had actually harmed a child in the family. I think seeing a child they loved be the victim must have been a huge wake up call for Katie and many of the other family members. But the Smiths have stood firmly by their son. 

Didn't BRADRICK!!! have an affair? Or possibly multiple affairs? I think him refusing to remain faithful is why that divorce was okayed. 

Anna could totally find a loophole and leave Josh, but it would mean accepting that she married and had children with a really horrible human, and I'm not sure she will do that. Jim Bob and Michelle might never accept that they raised a monster. I see them being like the Smiths. 

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

 

Anna could totally find a loophole and leave Josh, but it would mean accepting that she married and had children with a really horrible human, and I'm not sure she will do that. Jim Bob and Michelle might never accept that they raised a monster. I see them being like the Smiths. 

So much this. Jim-Bob & Michelle will never accept that he did something wrong.  They didn’t consider their daughters feelings either.  I have a feeling Josh probably doesn’t think he did anything wrong & everyone one is making a big deal about it. I have said this before & I’ll say it again. He has been treated like a king his entire life & probably doesn’t get why he still not treated as one now. 

 

[Four is Enough]

17 hours ago, Antimony said:

 Nobody wants to believe their children/family member/brother, etc, would do such a thing, so even for the most secular among us, there might be a little brain worm that goes, "But what if he didn't...?" and that can be really hard for people adjacent to the offender to come to terms with. 

This. So much this. UNTIL the ones who love the accused come to terms with either the preponderance of evidence OR the accused's own confession of guilt, nothing can move forward. No one can heal. No growth can happen. Even the accused must come to internalize his own guilt before he can move ahead. This is a  big sticking point.

 

The Duggars are, as Antimony said, capable of huge feats of double think.. while I think they should have gotten it when he was 15,  they seem to not have done so. I wonder if Josh gets sentenced if Anna and the kids would have to undergo therapy. Perhaps it's not too late for them.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

1 hour ago, Jana814 said:

So much this. Jim-Bob & Michelle will never accept that he did something wrong.  They didn’t consider their daughters feelings either.  I have a feeling Josh probably doesn’t think he did anything wrong & everyone one is making a big deal about it. I have said this before & I’ll say it again. He has been treated like a king his entire life & probably doesn’t get why he still not treated as one now. 

 

I think his actions in the land purchase debacle are a clue that he’s not going to plead out.

Josh bought a parcel of land at a small fraction of its value, and since he didn’t bother to complete basic due diligence, it was later discovered the person who sold him the land didn’t actually own it. Instead of working with the real owner to void the sale, he doubled down on being the legal owner and was sued (and eventually lost). Travis Story is an idiot, but I can’t believe he didn’t tell Pest there was a high likelihood of him losing…Pest probably insisted that he did nothing wrong. He bought the land for $1000 and spent several times that on defending himself in court case! 

The stakes are much higher this time and he probably still thinks he did nothing wrong. I don’t think he’s going to accept a deal and they will go to trial. 🍿🍿🍿

[Alisamer]

I am certain that in Josh's mind (and JimBob and Michelle's minds, and maybe Anna's too) all he did was "look at some pictures". I wouldn't be surprised if they really do think there is no real difference in Josh looking at those images and people looking at a Playboy magazine. Anna probably doesn't know the gory details of exactly WHAT he was looking at. Michelle might not either. JimBob probably does, but downplays it because this is his son that he raised in a perfect Christian home and how the heck did THIS happen?

These people are the sort to throw in "but what about..." in every situation. So he looked at some inappropriate pictures. What about porn magazines, strip clubs, etc? 

I think they know that anything involving children being abused is bad. But they have an image in their minds of a child abuser/molester and Josh doesn't fit that image. He just looked at the photos, he didn't actually harm anyone!

I think they have compartmentalized and minimized everything enough that they really think it's all just an overreaction. I won't be surprised at all if it goes to trial and they will be shocked if the jury convicts him. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

The Duggars believe their own hype…I don’t think they’ve ever had anyone straight up tell them how screwed up they are.  Sure there have been rumors of distancing and reported falling outs, but I don’t think anyone in their circle has ever really called them out on their shit. Anything bad that happens to them or is said about them is ‘Satan’s work’ because they are such awesome Christians. Satan only attacks the righteous, ya know? 

These people are delusional and incapable of sincere self-reflection. Pest going to jail is going to rock their world.

 

[SassyPants]

As I have commented before and will continue to say, The apple Josh does not fall far from the apple JB tree. Josh acts and reasons like an entitled man because in his reality, a male Duggar is entitled to be entitled. They dig in and refuse to accept the real world reality because they’ve lived in JB’s entitled cocoon. Most of our parents would have had a coming to Jesus with any of us a good long time ago. 
 

Yes, JB and M created this monster and reinforced his crappy behaviors. Why haven’t they cut him off? Why should JB support Josh’s criminal behaviors; pay to defend him, house and support his growing family? JB and M have enabled this golden boy untoward man.

Sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they get it. This applies to Anna too. Stop having kids with a perp; move on- I thought these folks were old Leviticus, OT, righteous, eye for any eye folks? Pick your lane.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Yes, JB and M created this monster and reinforced his crappy behaviors. Why haven’t they cut him off? Why should JB support Josh’s criminal behaviors; pay to defend him, house and support his growing family? JB and M have enabled this golden boy untoward man.

Boob is shady AF and Josh knows his secrets. Keeping him on the payroll keeps him quiet. 

 

[feministxtian]

2 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

I don’t think they’ve ever had anyone straight up tell them how screwed up they are.  Sure there have been rumors of distancing and reported falling outs, but I don’t think anyone in their circle has ever really called them out on their shit.

I have to disagree here. I think Jill called them out, starting with the $$ and going from there. It seems that Jill & Derek are purposely trying to do things almost the exact opposite of what Boob and J'shelle did. The other local kids seem to be more or less towing the line. Jill...crossed that line and never looked back. That would also explain Jill going into therapy and J&D pursuing marital counseling. I personally think that Jill has come a long way from her upbringing. They may always be conservative Christians, but I don't see them going back into the IBLP/IFB cult.

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

As I have commented before and will continue to say, The apple Josh does not fall far from the apple JB tree. Josh acts and reasons like an entitled man because in his reality, a male Duggar is entitled to be entitled. They dig in and refuse to accept the real world reality because they’ve lived in JB’s entitled cocoon. Most of our parents would have had a coming to Jesus with any of us a good long time ago. 
 

Yes, JB and M created this monster and reinforced his crappy behaviors. Why haven’t they cut him off? Why should JB support Josh’s criminal behaviors; pay to defend him, house and support his growing family? JB and M have enabled this golden boy untoward man.

Sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they get it. This applies to Anna too. Stop having kids with a perp; move on- I thought these folks were old Leviticus, OT, righteous, eye for any eye folks? Pick your lane.

Naahhh Jesus replaced the Old Testament with the New one. New rules and all, EXCEPT when it’s useful to them. Just like they follow Paul instead of Jesus when it serves them. 
 

I think another point of keeping him out of jail atm is the fear how his inmates might treat him. His typ of crimes is not a good outlook inside. 
 

I have to say, I am reading it all in shock. I was convinced that J is a piece of shit, but that his teenage behaviour and cheating on his wife with another adult are not exactly proof for being a paedophile. I sadly stand corrected in this case and it’s pretty sickening.

Edited October 15, 2021 by just_ordinary

[Snarkasarus Rex]

31 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I have to disagree here. I think Jill called them out, starting with the $$ and going from there. It seems that Jill & Derek are purposely trying to do things almost the exact opposite of what Boob and J'shelle did. The other local kids seem to be more or less towing the line. Jill...crossed that line and never looked back. That would also explain Jill going into therapy and J&D pursuing marital counseling. I personally think that Jill has come a long way from her upbringing. They may always be conservative Christians, but I don't see them going back into the IBLP/IFB cult.

You’re right, Jill and Wreck did call Boob out, however, I doubt Boob thinks he did anything wrong. 

I was thinking more in terms of a peer or even someone Boobchelle looked up to calling them out and maybe, just maybe they would think about what they’ve done. But that is probably too much to hope for.

[feministxtian]

10 minutes ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

You’re right, Jill and Wreck did call Boob out, however, I doubt Boob thinks he did anything wrong. 

I was thinking more in terms of a peer or even someone Boobchelle looked up to calling them out and maybe, just maybe they would think about what they’ve done. But that is probably too much to hope for.

I think that Boob not taking Jill's issues seriously is part of the estrangement. In terms of someone in their peer group calling them out, not gonna happen. They exist in their IBLP/IFB echo chamber. But, if Josh goes to trial, they may hear the loud popping noise of their cranio-rectal inversion resolving itself. 

[EmCatlyn]

31 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I have to disagree here. I think Jill called them out, starting with the $$ and going from there. It seems that Jill & Derek are purposely trying to do things almost the exact opposite of what Boob and J'shelle did. The other local kids seem to be more or less towing the line. Jill...crossed that line and never looked back. That would also explain Jill going into therapy and J&D pursuing marital counseling. I personally think that Jill has come a long way from her upbringing. They may always be conservative Christians, but I don't see them going back into the IBLP/IFB cult.

Jill had the good fortune of marrying a man with some brains and education.  She is doing what she was taught and following her headship.  Fortunately, he is leading her away from the major hypocrisies of the cult in which she was raised.

Back when the molestation was revealed, I had the impression (I forget why) that this was the first that Derek had heard of it.  And I always wondered if they left for “Dangerous Central America” when they did in order to get away from the family at a time when there was a lot of tension connected to Josh.

[Idlewild]

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Back when the molestation was revealed, I had the impression (I forget why) that this was the first that Derek had heard of it.  And I always wondered if they left for “Dangerous Central America” when they did in order to get away from the family at a time when there was a lot of tension connected to Josh.

Yet when they returned to the US and Derick was grifting for funds, he made a video thanking Josh for his donation. Now he didn’t have to call Josh out publicly, but he certainly didn’t have to kiss his arse and could have privately told him to stick his donation where the sun don’t shine.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

22 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Yet when they returned to the US and Derick was grifting for funds, he made a video thanking Josh for his donation. Now he didn’t have to call Josh out publicly, but he certainly didn’t have to kiss his arse and could have privately told him to stick his donation where the sun don’t shine.

Exactly. Derick didn’t ‘save’ Jill from anything…he’s been clear that his beef is with Boob and has never mentioned Pest as a factor.

Derick was just pissed that he didn’t the easy button life he thought he was going to get when he married Jill.  Her settlement money likely funded his law school, so hopefully he makes good on that by actually becoming a practicing lawyer. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Snarkasarus Rex

[Bluebirdbluebell]

7 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Anna could totally find a loophole and leave Josh, but it would mean accepting that she married and had children with a really horrible human, and I'm not sure she will do that. Jim Bob and Michelle might never accept that they raised a monster. I see them being like the Smiths. 

I think Jim Bob and Michelle already believed that Josh is a monster. It's totally not their fault in their opinions, but they believe he's awful. I think the whole family doesn't want to throw him completely under the bus before the trial, but when he's convicted they will act like "Josh who?" The bit about Josh and Anna and "their family" is telling. It's how both JB/Michelle and Jessa/Ben worded their statement.

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

I have to disagree here. I think Jill called them out, starting with the $$ and going from there. It seems that Jill & Derek are purposely trying to do things almost the exact opposite of what Boob and J'shelle did. The other local kids seem to be more or less towing the line. Jill...crossed that line and never looked back. That would also explain Jill going into therapy and J&D pursuing marital counseling. I personally think that Jill has come a long way from her upbringing. They may always be conservative Christians, but I don't see them going back into the IBLP/IFB cult.

Not exactly. Jill and Derick are still conservative Christians and even mainstream conservative Christians aren't completely different from fundies. Every so often, they'll do a post about disciplining their boys which is not that different from how they were raised. Jill hasn't said she blanket trains, but she has talked about obedience and discliping and in the early years the boys seemed quite constrained. The only things Jill has disagreed with her parents over is money. She has made decisions that differ from theirs, but she hasn't publically said she disagrees with most of how she was raised.