(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[Alisamer]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:29 AM, Four is Enough said:

You might think that.. I mean, when my son was accused of his misdeeds, the news wasn't on television news or in the papers. But Every Single Person in our community- neighbors, friends, church goers, classmates, potential classmates... knew about my son the pervert. The effect was catastrophic. We were told to move out of state by an attorney friend of mine. We didn't, but it was recommended.

People always know, or learn something, and they talk about it.

That's true. I know a guy who was arrested for possession of CSA images. EVERYONE in the whole town knew within a day, and everyone was talking about it. This guy was released quickly and never went to trial, and is apparently free now - and no one seems to know exactly what happened. That part doesn't get the attention that the arrest did.

(For the record I am reasonably certain the guy was innocent - he is an IT guy who does computer repair at home as a side hustle, so it's entirely possible he was in possession of a computer or hard drive that had CSA material on it that wasn't his and that he didn't know about at all.)

[BlackberryGirl]

The husband of a friend is serving time for csa in NY. He was the super involved dad at our local catholic school, where the grandberries went, former SUNY police officer, step father of one of the middle berries good friends. EVERYBODY in town knew instantly. His wife got a lot of community support as did his kids, but I doubt he will ever come back here on release. His poor wife aged about 20 years in 6 months, divorced his ass immediately. She honest to god didn’t know.

[feministxtian]

26 minutes ago, BlackberryGirl said:

The husband of a friend is serving time for csa in NY. He was the super involved dad at our local catholic school, where the grandberries went, former SUNY police officer, step father of one of the middle berries good friends. EVERYBODY in town knew instantly. His wife got a lot of community support as did his kids, but I doubt he will ever come back here on release. His poor wife aged about 20 years in 6 months, divorced his ass immediately. She honest to god didn’t know.

A friend's husband did the same thing...and he was a teacher. As he was awaiting trial, he decided to come out too. My friend was a mess. If I recall, his sentence was a slap on the wrist and he couldn't work as a teacher anymore. It was awful!

[Idlewild]

Well Josh always said he’d like to be a lawyer so he’ll have a few years to put the work in.

[Dandruff]

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

(For the record I am reasonably certain the guy was innocent - he is an IT guy who does computer repair at home as a side hustle, so it's entirely possible he was in possession of a computer or hard drive that had CSA material on it that wasn't his and that he didn't know about at all.)

Around 15-20 years ago I bought a new laptop, realized during setup that it wasn't working properly, and sent it to the manufacturer to fix.  When I got it back it worked but it was also polluted with adult porn files.  I was *severely* pissed and called and bitched but thank Rufus it wasn't CSA.  Spent a fair amount of time afterward cleaning the keyboard and surrounding surfaces.

[EmCatlyn]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:28 AM, nokidsmom said:

I don't think some people like Anna and the Seewalds really understand that if this case goes to court, that some really, really  awful details are going to come out.   It will be a shock when it does but it's also going to taint anyone closely associated with Josh whether it's fair or not.   Anna will be stuck but the Seewalds would do well to publicly stay out of it regardless of how they feel about it privately.

Josh has already shown how toxic he really is.   But somehow that internal "tripwire" that should tell you "that's it, I am outta here" seems to have been disabled to the point that people like Anna have stuck with him and will share in the consequences, even if it's not totally fair.  Because that's how those things unfortunately work.

Jessa was one of Josh’s victims.   She came forward (along with Jill) to minimize the seriousness of his offense (“he was just a little too curious about girls”).  It is not surprising that she is inclined to minimize the seriousness of his offense now.

For the Duggars just watching porn is the sin—it doesn’t matter much if the porn depicts consenting adults or victimized children: it is the same sin.  They probably don’t understand that it is worse when children are involved—for the same reason that they don’t understand that an older brother pulling down the panties of a younger sister is not the same as two same-age kids playing doctor. (I am not referring to any specific actions of Josh, just speaking generally.)

So aside from the very real desire to protect the Duggar brand, I suspect there is also less of a sense that CSA porn is worse than regular porn.  They probably don’t want to think about it too much (the Duggars are big at not thinking).  My guess is that even though they know that Josh was watching CSA, many in their world don’t see how this relates to children in their real lives or is any worse than watching porn. 

[allyisyourpally5]

Whenever I hear Jessa saying “not a big deal, he was just a little too curious about girls” and JB and M saying how common it is and it wpreally was only minor touching or whatever crap they said......my heart just breaks for any child, being abused by someone, who heard that, and as a result have remained quiet and told themselves it’s not a big deal or it’s their fault and that everyone goes through it.

JB and M have no excuse. Jessa just demonstrated the terrible belief system and upbringing in one sentence. I hope the outcome of this trial finally bites JB and M where it hurts the most....and I hope for some kind of intervention for Jessa and all naive Duggar’s before it truly bites them where it hurts the most.

 

[luv2laugh]

His motion to dismiss the charges was denied today.

 

4) Motion to Dismiss 
for Government’s Failure to Preserve Potentially Exculpatory Evidence (Doc. 40)

Edited October 13, 2021 by luv2laugh

[AussieKrissy]

3 hours ago, allyisyourpally5 said:

Whenever I hear Jessa saying “not a big deal, he was just a little too curious about girls” and JB and M saying how common it is and it wpreally was only minor touching or whatever crap they said......my heart just breaks for any child, being abused by someone, who heard that, and as a result have remained quiet and told themselves it’s not a big deal or it’s their fault and that everyone goes through it.

JB and M have no excuse. Jessa just demonstrated the terrible belief system and upbringing in one sentence. I hope the outcome of this trial finally bites JB and M where it hurts the most....and I hope for some kind of intervention for Jessa and all naive Duggar’s before it truly bites them where it hurts the most.

 

lordy, I had not even thought of that, fuck that just adds another level of hate I have for JB and Mechelle 

I do believe Jill and Jessa were victims and told what to say to "save" the brand. And fuck the network for allowing that shit to run without a disclaimer that, what they said is not true and that you should reach out and keep reaching out until you have received the help you need

[Mommy22alyns]

What the fuck is Anna doing? Seriously... what the fuck? I saw the pic of her and Josh coming out of the court building and she's smiling like she isn't holding the arm of a depraved pervert. Is she dumb or brainwashed, or what? I love my husband, but I would drop him in a hot second if he was looking at CP.

[FleeJanaFree]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:12 PM, EmCatlyn said:

 

For the Duggars just watching porn is the sin—it doesn’t matter much if the porn depicts consenting adults or victimized children: it is the same sin.  They probably don’t understand that it is worse when children are involved—for the same reason that they don’t understand that an older brother pulling down the panties of a younger sister is not the same as two same-age kids playing doctor. (I am not referring to any specific actions of Josh, just speaking generally.)

 

I know this is what they say- all sin is the same in the eyes of god.

 I absolutely don’t believe the majority of fundies actually believe it in their bones though. There’s just no way Jessa would believe Josh assaulting one of her kids is the equal to him watching pornography or going ten miles over the speed limit. 
 

i feel bad the sisters didn’t have the support to put up real barriers of protection from Josh and had to parrot their parents to stay in tv to fatten JBs wallet. Poor kids. 

[Dandruff]

I believe Josh now has five days to change his plea...and counting.

Wonder whether M7 has made her appearance yet.

[anjulibai]

I really hope he takes a plea. There's no reason to hash this all out in court. 

[AussieKrissy]

6 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

I really hope he takes a plea. There's no reason to hash this all out in court. 

Part of me wants Anna and the rest of the family to be slapped in the face with it. Deny that arseholes (even though I know they will).

[Queen Of Hearts]

33 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Part of me wants Anna and the rest of the family to be slapped in the face with it. Deny that arseholes (even though I know they will).

I have said from the beginning that the only thing that would maybe slap Anna out of her trance would be to be exposed to the evidence in court.  And if by some chance she finally opens her eyes she'll be in a much better place to keep her kids safe and help them work through this.

[Tdoc72]

36 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Part of me wants Anna and the rest of the family to be slapped in the face with it. Deny that arseholes (even though I know they will).

I can’t wait for the trial for the same reason.  Yes, I know that’s mean. It would be better for him to plead out (which would also make me happy).  

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

I know this is what they say- all sin is the same in the eyes of god.

 I absolutely don’t believe the majority of fundies actually believe it in their bones though. There’s just no way Jessa would believe Josh assaulting one of her kids is the equal to him watching pornography or going ten miles over the speed limit.

i feel bad the sisters didn’t have the support to put up real barriers of protection from Josh and had to parrot their parents to stay in tv to fatten JBs wallet. Poor kids. 

I didn’t say that Jessa would think watching porn was the same as assaulting a child. I said that watching CSA porn is, in Duggar minds, not any different from watching regular porn.  ( I am also pretty sure that going over the speed limit is not a sin among the Duggars or their friends.)

As for “all sin is equal in the eyes of God,” I think you can believe that and still find some sins more heinous than others.  I am sure, for example, that no Fundie thinks that murder is as “bad” as extra-marital sex.  And I agree that Jessa would think that assaulting a child is “worse” than watching porn.  The “all sin is equal” idea is supposed to make the person who commits the sin feel shame and repentance before God.  It isn’t a comment on how family and neighbors should treat the sinner.

At the same time Jessa and her siblings were taught (and some may have learned) that failure to forgive is a sin.  So even if someone does something horrible to you, it is sinful to hold a grudge, especially if the person repents and asks forgiveness. This is not because “all sins are equal” but because lack of forgiveness is defined as un-Christian.

As for Jessa’s own experience with Josh, I think that she was was forced to suppress and maybe even forget the feelings she had about being molested.  Thus she was able to minimize the extent to which she was angry, disgusted, appalled by what he did to her and her sisters.

We tend to assume that everyone will interpret Josh’s interest in CSA porn as a warning signal that he may act on his inappropriate sexual interest in children.  I am not sure the Duggars in general would look at it this way.

In short, Jessa may not feel that Josh is a threat to her kids because she has been taught not to connect his choice of porn with what he did to her when she was a child.  I hope this isn’t the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised.  Denial is very big in that family.

[Dandruff]

3 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I have said from the beginning that the only thing that would maybe slap Anna out of her trance would be to be exposed to the evidence in court.  And if by some chance she finally opens her eyes she'll be in a much better place to keep her kids safe and help them work through this.

I'm not sure how much of a trance she's in at this point.  Josh's antics have (allegedly) continued despite anything Anna and JB may have tried.  He cost the family their show and brought Anna and the kids from well off and somewhat independent, with their wedding shown on prime time TV, to a windowless warehouse.  Things have gotten pretty bad when your husband has been arrested on federal charges and is currently in the custody of family friends and an ankle monitor.  I tend to doubt that she's in such a trance that the awfulness of the situation hasn't sunk in.

When Josh was outed for Ashley Madison why was he sent to Jesus jail in another state?  My suspicion is that Anna wanted him tf out of her sight for at least a good long while.  If she hadn't, couldn't a program have been found that was closer and included family therapy?  At the least, he could have been closer to his kids.  For whatever reason(s) she later took him back, perhaps believed the problems were over, and now this.

I think she may have about reached her limit but has nothing to gain by cutting him loose right now.  If he goes to jail he'll probably be out of her hair for years, and if he doesn't she can blame Satan for all the trouble.  In the meantime, I would guess that her bills are being paid, she has help with the kids, and she's willing to stand by his side and look supportive once in awhile.

[Idlewild]

@Dandruff that’s a good point about the Jesus Jail- Josh’s lawyers made such a big deal about his bail conditions allowing him to see his children, yet he went out of state and avoided them for months. Possible reasons - Anna wanted him gone, although i seem to remember she was photographed visiting him? Cheap ass JB got a discount with whoever provided the rehab? JB did a deal with TLC that the show could continue if the family looked serious about getting help for Josh (although TLC should have insisted on proper therapists if that was the deal).

Anna isn’t ignorant in the sense she isn’t sheltered from the world. Before this she was all over Twitter and Parler, spouting her opinions and retweeting ‘news’ items. It’s impossible that she hasn’t read what he’s accused of.

[Sops2]

She definitely has help with the kids.A photo on the Alert Family camp  instagram story today shows the  oldest M with Josie at a camp activity

[ifosterkittens]

I think if Josh pleas guilty, and on the record admits he created the partition to conceal his internet viewing, admits it was him who downloaded the CSAM, and his struggles and ultimate failure to avoid such material would be a slap in the face to Duggar supporters. 

The description of the CSAM is available through the detention hearing transcript, so the information is available to everyone. Before the detention hearing transcript I wondered (all speculation on my part) if Duggar supporters would say yes viewing porn is a sin, but it wasn't Josh's fault that the 15 year old girl looked like an 18 year old woman, and decide that's why he was charged with CSAM. The description (won't include) of 7-9 year old prepubescents girl leaves no doubt.  

On Coffee and Cursey words (1:59.30) Emily Baker pulled up the Duggar pre trial instructions, let court know change of plea by Oct 18, signed plea agreement to the judge by Oct 20, and if there is a change of plea to guilty the hearing will be scheduled for Oct 22. 

Thank you @shesinsanefor including the transcript link on page 4. Caution read at your own risk, some things can't be unread. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by ifosterkittens

[Satan'sFortress]

Knowing that most people in this situation take a plea, I wonder about the timing of that. If Josh does end up doing that, is it typical to wait this late in the game? 

[FiveAcres]

2 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Knowing that most people in this situation take a plea, I wonder about the timing of that. If Josh does end up doing that, is it typical to wait this late in the game? 

Lawyers have commented that they would certainly wait until the judge rules on all the evidentiary pleadings. (I am not a lawyer.) 

[Idlewild]

His lawyers would have to await the outcomes of the various applications they have filed. If he is taking a plea it’s a tight turnaround to submit an basis that’s acceptable to the prosecution and then prepare the family for what’s going to happen.

Its impossible to know what’s going on with Josh- he may have thought he would win the applications and his prospects at trial would be better. His lawyers have surely now advised him that having had all of them refused, his chances of acquittal are now looking remote and his best chance of avoiding lengthy jail time is to submit a plea by the required time. Whether he accepts this advice of course…

if he does capitulate I think it will be right up to the deadline and they’ll ask for a long adjournment before any sentencing hearing. This will give time for the baby to be born and for him to gather some mitigation about enrolling into proper therapy etc. He’d be crazy to take his chances with a jury - but he may be that arrogant.

[Howl]

It might be a good time to remember that Duggars are not just fundies, but are steeped in GOTHARD/IBLP beliefs about sin and that has to be the point of reference on how they dealt with Josh.  How bad is that? Gothard teaches that victims have some level of responsibility and a role in their own abuse. JB and Michelle are steeped in these IBLP teachings.

Gothard was finally ousted from his own organization after many  decades of sexual weirdness, fetishization and abuse of the underage teen girls who worked at IBLP headquarters, but AFAIK, the Duggars have never repudiated him. 

The Gothard brothers are sociopaths who have exhibited a huge amount of criminality, sexual dysfunction, perversion and abuse over their lifetimes and Bill's teachings and attitudes about sexuality and how to deal with someone's sexual deviance aren't ever going to be appropriate.   

Wasn't Josh sent to a specific Gothard/IBLP Jesus "pray and work the sin away" camp to get right with God?