(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[EmCatlyn]

47 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

….[snipped]

As for Anna's input I would not be surprised is Jim Bob and Michelle made it clear it is not her decision, and they aren't looking for her input. Michelle may have more of the one on one conversations saying we are paying for the attorneys, Jim Bob is praying on the topic and when the Lord tells him how to proceed we will let you know. I imagine Michelle has said if Josh goes to prison you will need us to support you, and we will if you tow the line. Michelle would probably add a lot more Jesus and bible, but the point would be crystal clear, keep your mouth shut.

…

Yes, it is unlikely that Anna has been consulted on whether Josh should plead guilty or go to trial.  However that doesn’t mean she and Josh haven’t discussed it.  

Josh doesn’t have that many people to talk to, and the subject is surely on his mind. We cannot know what kind of discussion they’d have, and we cannot know what Anna would say, but supposing he told her he wasn’t sure what to do, would Anna just cast her eyes down and say, “You must do what you think right after you have prayed on it,” or would she say, “Do what your father thinks best,” or might she express an opinion or preference? (In general, I don’t give Anna credit for having a lot of opinions, so I lean towards her going along with what she thinks Josh wants.)

There is probably no question in anyone’s mind that Anna will do or say whatever she is told by JB, Michelle, or Josh.  I don’t think she needs to be reminded (by Michelle or anyone else) who controls the money.  The question then is not what she would do publicly but what she might encourage Josh to do.

Incidentally, I may be wrong I don’t think Michelle is likely to point-blank remind Anna that she is dependent on them and that she should keep her mouth shut until Jim-Bob decides what they should do.   I see Michelle  more likely to approach the subject indirectly with such comments as, “It is important for women to be guided by men. When women are humble, men protect them,” along with comments about how she and JB will always take care of Anna and the kids so long as she continues a dutiful wife and daughter-in-law, and so forth.

To be sure, part of what is really wrong in all this is that Anna is considered, and probably considers herself, partly responsible for Josh’s transgressions.  Anna is a tiresome woman with some very toxic beliefs, but she is one of Josh’s main victims also. 

[Nike]

7 hours ago, Sabine said:

Honestly, from where i am standing it does not matter. I have a very good friend who is an atheist and will not take 'hormonal' birth control for the hormones (don't want to change my body and i have known a few of these women specifically in the Green Party movement ) and her birth control was having several abortions. . Its almost a bit like many things, many people believe many things.  The pill gave me terrible depression - this was the early 80's so the pill has gotten better at the time, but i too had several abortions in my life. The pill for what ever reason is not a good fit for all people. 

And while you might want to castigate a women who literally barely fucking learned to read and write for not 'believing' science, i would like to uplift her for believing science enough to find a non hormonal way to prevent pregnancy and doing a good job at it. As for her parroting still her mothers believe that the pill caused her to lose a child, i would say give her another few years, and some education. In the meantime Go Jill and your non hormonal birth control, because at over 5 years in marriage and only two kids it seems to work well for them. 

The problem is that that this person who, to quote you, has barely learnt to read, is spreading misinformation and sadly has too many followers who will believe her.

The pill may have given you depression in the 80's and not appealed to your atheist friend but it gives freedom and choice to millions of women. Maybe Derrick is willing to use a condom and reliable to do so but not every woman can rely on their partners. 

 

[Smee]

On 10/16/2021 at 6:50 PM, Idlewild said:

Jill’s children will be better equipped simply because they will have a better education and access to books that aren’t the bible or about the bible. That is greatest gift she can give them.

This. Jill and Derrick are always going to be problematic in certain ways but my hope is for those boys, whose futures are undoubtedly brighter than those of Michael or Spurgeon. 

When is Felicity school aged? I do think there’s a possibility the Vuolos won’t homeschool (although they’re probably more likely to go for a tiny private Christian school than a public school).

[Glasgowghirl]

I’m not surprised Jill said that as her reasoning for not going on hormonal birth control, she was raised believing this is what caused her mother lose Caleb, hopefully she will eventually realise that wasn’t the case or she already has realised that and isn’t saying anything. 

[JDuggs]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I’m not surprised Jill said that as her reasoning for not going on hormonal birth control, she was raised believing this is what caused her mother lose Caleb, hopefully she will eventually realise that wasn’t the case or she already has realised that and isn’t saying anything. 

I don’t think Michelle’s miscarriage of Caleb is what is the motivation of Jill’s decision not to use hormonal birth control. One of the ways that hormonal birth control prevents a woman from getting pregnant is to thin the lining of the uterus so a fertilized egg cannot implant. In Jill’s opinion, a fertilized egg is already a baby that the pill is causing it to be aborted because it won’t implant on the uterine wall. According to Jill, this is an abortion and people can agree or disagree with her opinion.

Women should choose any form of birth control that works for them personally. Jill didn’t choose hormonal birth control for this reason. She wasn’t telling other women not to take hormonal birth control.

I would be more concerned if she was posting opinions supporting the recent Texas abortion law or showing herself out protesting at abortion clinics or supporting candidates for office based on their abortion views. I don’t see her doing that right now.

[livinginthelight]

12 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

 

I imagine Anna is replaying the times she got a little snippy with Josh, or pretended to (or on purpose) fell asleep with the kids while putting them to bed so she didn't have to go to bed with Josh, or made a meal he didn't really like just because she had enough of his crap. She may be wondering what she could have done differently to prevent Josh from viewing online content. 

 

This. Exactly. Including the need to lose weight, etc.

I know someone who was molested by her father. Going through old boxes, she recently found letters from her mother to her father in which her mom was apologizing for not meeting his sexual needs and promising to do better.

Women are trained to always put the responsibility on ourselves. It is a sick sick sick system.

[Travelfan]

1 hour ago, JDuggs said:

I don’t think Michelle’s miscarriage of Caleb is what is the motivation of Jill’s decision not to use hormonal birth control. One of the ways that hormonal birth control prevents a woman from getting pregnant is to thin the lining of the uterus so a fertilized egg cannot implant. In Jill’s opinion, a fertilized egg is already a baby that the pill is causing it to be aborted because it won’t implant on the uterine wall. According to Jill, this is an abortion and people can agree or disagree with her opinion.

Women should choose any form of birth control that works for them personally. Jill didn’t choose hormonal birth control for this reason. She wasn’t telling other women not to take hormonal birth control.

I would be more concerned if she was posting opinions supporting the recent Texas abortion law or showing herself out protesting at abortion clinics or supporting candidates for office based on their abortion views. I don’t see her doing that right now.

Agree!  20 years ago when I wanted to have my first baby my Dr told me to discontinue birth control pills 2 months before trying. He said if I got pregnant before that I could likely have a miscarriage.  This is a very highly respected Dr in our large metropolitan area.  Knowing this did not cause me not to use hormonal bc in the future. After having my second baby I went straight back on hormonal birth control pills. I don’t believe the pills cause miscarriages, because I believe life begins after implantation, but I can see that someone who believes life begins from conception MAY choose a different bc option.  

[Sabine]

10 hours ago, Nike said:

The problem is that that this person who, to quote you, has barely learnt to read, is spreading misinformation and sadly has too many followers who will believe her.

The pill may have given you depression in the 80's and not appealed to your atheist friend but it gives freedom and choice to millions of women. Maybe Derrick is willing to use a condom and reliable to do so but not every woman can rely on their partners. 

 

I don't' disagree with it being incorrect, but then i don't go to Jill for medical advice, and i don't know anyone who does. Right now all that Jill does demonstrate is that a. she is on a birth control plan, and b. it works. Does it occur to some here that? If i were a fundy lady with the wisch to not pop out a blessing every 1.5 years for the next 25 years, i would go and ask Jill what her method is, because it is working. Not everyone is happy to pump their bodies full with hormones, not everyone can take the pill for medical reasons, and there are many more that don't take the pill for religious reasons (gasp and not all are evangelic nutcases )-  so what she does is good. That is all i am saying. 

Jill is doing good. Two kids in over 5  years of marriage where her younger sister is at 4 and counting. Her kids go to school, public school, her husband has good earning potential due to going to school and getting a degree. And all of that on her own, and without the pill. I think she is learning and she is learning fast what works for her and her family. 

And that should be held up as an example as it shows just how these Duggar women can extend their horizons even without breaking that all encompassing OFF'JB rules on birth control.  

[Dandruff]

One day and counting for changing his plea and I suppose the decision has already been made. 

Didn't he need to submit any alibi and witnesses by now?

Re. the Wallers:  I'd be surprised if every one of them isn't furious, though I'd expect Josh and JB to explain that casting doubt upon Matthew was the lawyer's idea.  Still - unless Josh is found not guilty or can convince his circle that the conclusion is wrong, he can be blamed for allowing friends like Matthew to be in proximity to CSA media with the resulting implications.

Unless Josh is found not guilty, his children will eventually know what sent daddy away.

 

[Antimony]

6 hours ago, JDuggs said:

 In Jill’s opinion, a fertilized egg is already a baby that the pill is causing it to be aborted because it won’t implant on the uterine wall. According to Jill, this is an abortion and people can agree or disagree with her opinion.

This is the crux of it. I was listening to Leaving Eden, recommended over in the JRod thread, and the co-host Sadie was explaining tht the IBLP and IFB communities define "life" as having begun at fertilization, but some other sects consider it to be implantation, and this little technicality is what ripples out into all these nasty judgmental discussion between sects and towards the outside world over what is and isn't an abortion. Apparently, some fundie college let a doctor teach Sex Ed for Married Ladies in which he implied life began at implantation, against the beliefs of the college, and this is one event that caused Steven Anderson to go off the goddamn rails and start the Pissing Strip Mall Church. It's all very strange to me.

Anyway, I was under the impression that Josh's deadlines were the 18th - Monday, so I'll guess we'll see if the Legal Eagles can dig up anything on PACER tomorrow. Alford pleas have been a topic on the Reddit and the general gist was, "Plenty of people take them for CSAM cases, but they have some significant drawbacks in terms of parole and other such things later down the line."

[onekidanddone]

I’m hoping for a new TLC series. 
25 to Life and Counting. 
 

Well the 25 to life part, not the tv show.  I wish for Josh, JB and all of them to vanish from the public forum never to been seen again 

Edited October 17, 2021 by onekidanddone

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

5 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

I’m hoping for a new TLC series. 
25 to Life and Counting. 
 

Well the 25 to life part, not the tv show.  I wish for Josh, JB and all of them to vanish from the public forum never to been seen again 

I'm totally down to watch a TV show featuring Josh's life in prison.

[PinkGreyBrown]

I think we've already seen how this'll play out with all the MAGA goings on: Smuggar & family will play the 'I've been framed by the evil deep state' & 'this is persecutions of good Christians by evil demon-rats' & etc. & they'll go with that whether he takes a plea or not -- tho' I've no clue as to whether they'll take a plea or not. I'm eagerly waiting for that shoe to drop. If he accepts a plea, I expect them to do the 'we were framed' thing extra hard, 'they were forced to take the plea cuz evil persecutions'. That's my bet.

[marmalade]

7 hours ago, Dandruff said:

One day and counting for changing his plea and I suppose the decision has already been made. 

Didn't he need to submit any alibi and witnesses by now?

Re. the Wallers:  I'd be surprised if every one of them isn't furious, though I'd expect Josh and JB to explain that casting doubt upon Matthew was the lawyer's idea.  Still - unless Josh is found not guilty or can convince his circle that the conclusion is wrong, he can be blamed for allowing friends like Matthew to be in proximity to CSA media with the resulting implications.

Unless Josh is found not guilty, his children will eventually know what sent daddy away.

 

Alibi witnesses have to be submitted by Wednesday, I believe. Let's see if he pleas out first. For the record, I think he's too full of himself to admit guilt and will go to trial convinced that he'll be acquitted.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

Frankly, I think a trial is worse for the family as a whole than for Josh individually. His reputation is shit and he’s (likely) going to jail either way, so he’s not going to care about the effect his decision has on others. 

OTOH, if they go to trial, counsel will have to do a lot of finger pointing to create reasonable doubt. It’s going to be very ugly…there’s already speculation Matthew Waller will get dragged into this and there may be accusations against family members. The M kids will eventually find out what their dad is really like. There will be oodles of fodder for true crime/docuseries TV, and even TLC might decide they are ‘done’ done with them. It will be hard for any family members that truly want to distance themselves from the family to do so.  I don’t think the Duggars will recover from it, and they’ll probably drag others down with them (wonder if LaCount Reber is regretting his decision?).

Does Boob realize this or is he convinced of their own righteousness? If Boob knows a plea is the best outcome, can he convince Pest to do it? What will it cost Boob to make it happen?  Tune in to find out…

 

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Does Boob realize this or is he convinced of their own righteousness? If

JB has lived in the cult/right wing extremist bubble for so long he really might not grasp how bad a trial will be.  A trial will not only highlight the horrific things Josh downloaded but also all the evidence. It will be almost impossible for the whole family values/protect the children brand to come back from this. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by formergothardite

[Mela99]

I think Dim Wit is still very deluded and legitimately does not understand how the rest of the world works. He thinks he’s a victim of anti-Christian sentiment, that all of this is happening because they love Jesus, and that prayer and money will make it all go away. Again.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

19 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

JB has lived in the cult/right wing extremist bubble for so long he really might not grasp how bad a trial will be.  A trial will not only highlight the horrific things Josh downloaded but also all the evidence. It will be almost for the whole family values/protect the children brand to come back from this. 

I agree. If Boob was smart, or at least trying to salvage what’s left of the brand, he’d make it worth Pest’s while to accept a plea deal.  But I think it’s likely that you’re right and they’re just not going to accept reality. 
 

[SassyPants]

I know I differ from others but I think JB and Josh are cut from the same cloth. They are not naive. They are both entitled and cunning. JB plays the “golly, oh shucks” routine all the time, but it’s all an act. He thinks he’s entitled to producing a low level effort in everything but procreation, and Josh even more so. These folks are lazy, greedy and opportunistic.  Religion, God, Bible are used interchangeably as both shield and weapon to get what they want. They, men,  are conferred much power in their cult, so they also get the burden of dealing with all the negative outcomes and fallout. 
 

Look at how JB as treated his favorite, golden child, Jilly Muffin. She questioned, so he immediately turned on her. 
Personally, I think Josh might welcome a way to get away from Anna, JB and the entire fake lifestyle. Too bad he didn’t stand up to JB like JIll did, but see Josh is exactly like JB, too entitled to put in any effort. 
 

JB should be afraid of what else/secrets a trial might uncover. But again, this is a man who sold his wholesome family to the media for easy cash, fully knowing he had abuse present within that wholesome family. So entitled…

[Snarkasarus Rex]

No link yet, but Reddit is reporting Pest’s request for a Franks hearing was denied. This was the last outstanding motion filed by the defense.  My guess is that he’ll immediately be offered a plea deal since today is the deadline. 

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

JB should be afraid of what else/secrets a trial might uncover. But again, this is a man who sold his wholesome family to the media for easy cash, fully knowing he had abuse present within that wholesome family. So entitled…

This is a guy who claimed he flipped a coin (yes, money) three times to help him with decision-making.  The Lord has, apparently, been willing to adjust gravity when JB wants a sign.  Perhaps he has been flipping again re. Josh's plea/trial situation?

[Idlewild]

JB took the younger children on trip and then they all went to Gothard camp in Texas. Now there’s no reason the kids should miss out on the ‘fun’, but you’d think the patriarch might have stayed at home to support his son through these crucial pre trial hearings? He may as well have a T shirt printed ‘Josh who?’. 
Whatever happens, I think JB is planning to keep some distance between them in the hope he can salvage some of the brand. They deserve each other.

[luv2laugh]

The judge is NOT having it (part of the quote missing on next page is the word ‘crime’ as in, that video alone is probable cause to search his devices for evidence of a crime”.)

Josh’s attorneys are arguing that the agents basically lied by saying they “successfully downloaded” Josh’s files when they actually were partly downloaded so, the entire case should be thrown out (aka Frank’s). If you’re reading the document, trigger warning- page 10 includes a description of the file.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by luv2laugh

[luv2laugh]

The judge sounds fed up: 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

Welp, you can’t say that Pest’s attorneys aren’t trying…but they are seriously out of ammo now. 

Good gravy, the info discussed in the Franks hearing denial alone is enough to convince someone to take a plea deal. 

26 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Now there’s no reason the kids should miss out on the ‘fun’, but you’d think the patriarch might have stayed at home to support his son through these crucial pre trial hearings? 

I just think this is an indication that a decision about a possible plea deal has already been made and Boob/Pest are in agreement.  If it wasn’t settled, Boob would be at home making sure Pest made the choice he wants him to make.

My gut says this is going to trial 😬.