[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 27:How Many Robocalls Did Michelle Make to Warn People about Her Son

[Jacked]

Anyone have any thoughts on this new video from WOACB?

 

[Giraffe]

15 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

@browncoatslytheryn: regarding the sex work discussion on the previous thread: yes, I have had many people explain the pay/schedule hellaciousness when explaining why sex workers proven to be the best option for them, as well. Here's where I am still concerned: perhaps you can share your view on this point?

If someone has chosen to be a sex worker because our society refuses to support a living wage and work schedule with good and affordable (read: subsidized) daycare, then isn't our society trapping people into choices they might not otherwise make, just as human traffickers do? Isn't the agency for choice being taken away, albeit by a societal structure, not by an individual? In any case, the choices are limited, just the same. I've had people tell me similar stories for why they began sex work. In my experience, all were economic reasons, and none were because the person chose the work. In every case, the person told me they wanted something different, but they were either paid too little, unable to find child care, or needed (expensive) higher education to achieve their goals. Nobody cited the fact that they freely chose sex work because they loved the job, and it was fulfilling to them. 

So, I wonder if we can truly say that those workers freely chose the work, after all? Is it truly consent if there is no other financial option?

I am interested in responses.

Oh for fucks sake! Will you stop with sex work is the same as trafficking?! All you’re doing is shaming people! That same line of thinking - people feeling like they’re trapped because it pays better - fits so many jobs outside of sex work! I know so many people who feel trapped in their current non sex worker job because it pays better than something else they’d prefer to be doing but they do it because it pays the bills! How many people are working their dream jobs for their ideal income?! 

[nokidsmom]

Just now, FiveAcres said:

The whole "marriage to a Godly Young Woman with fix this problem" approach needs to be staked, have its head cut off, and be buried in the ground. Then, sow the ground with salt.  

And stomp on it for good measure. 

I have mentioned my very troubled ex-fiance from college here before.  I  remember people being furious with me for breaking up with him, feeling that I had abandoned him and that somehow it was my duty to help him, that my being with him would "fix" him.  Luckily I rejected this notion entirely that even then I felt it was up to him to get his own s**t together.  I didn't want a project to fix, I wanted a fully functional, contributing, responsible partner.   And someone I could trust.  

One of the reasons I broke up with him was because it was starting to dawn on me how troubled he was, he needed serious help from real psychologists/psychiatrists and not the praying away he was doing.   Or expecting a good woman to fix him.   He did find that woman years later and I seriously doubt she had any idea of his history or the scope of his problems.

Anyhoo, back to Josh but the idea of a woman being made responsible to fix a messed up man and especially someone so sheltered like Anna just makes me stabby.

[browncoatslytherin]

31 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

@browncoatslytheryn: regarding the sex work discussion on the previous thread: yes, I have had many people explain the pay/schedule hellaciousness when explaining why sex workers proven to be the best option for them, as well. Here's where I am still concerned: perhaps you can share your view on this point?

If someone has chosen to be a sex worker because our society refuses to support a living wage and work schedule with good and affordable (read: subsidized) daycare, then isn't our society trapping people into choices they might not otherwise make, just as human traffickers do? Isn't the agency for choice being taken away, albeit by a societal structure, not by an individual? In any case, the choices are limited, just the same. I've had people tell me similar stories for why they began sex work. In my experience, all were economic reasons, and none were because the person chose the work. In every case, the person told me they wanted something different, but they were either paid too little, unable to find child care, or needed (expensive) higher education to achieve their goals. Nobody cited the fact that they freely chose sex work because they loved the job, and it was fulfilling to them. 

So, I wonder if we can truly say that those workers freely chose the work, after all? Is it truly consent if there is no other financial option?

I am interested in responses.

i mean you could literally say the exact same thing about an abundance of jobs being worked these days. customer service facing jobs are a special level of hell that i've personally experienced and quite honestly, i felt devalued and exploited whilst working them. if anything, i choose it now over any other part-time minimum wage job because fuck having to navigate that particular brand of bullshit. blame capitalism for that, not us and what we choose to do. painting us with a broad brush does no one good and doesn't address root issues.

sex work is a career and it encompasses a vast swath of folks with varied backgrounds (NOT just women, as i constantly see folks hand-wringing over, not you in particular just in general). we all go into it for different reasons. just as folks go into other careers for varied reasons. if *anyone* is given the choice to do *anything* with their lives, do you really think most would stay in the jobs they currently have? serious question. because i honestly can't think of one person i know who would. (speaking in terms of specifically my non-sex worker friends, just to be abundantly clear in case anyone wants to try to twist my words)

Edited May 2, 2021 by browncoatslytherin
clarification

[seraaa]

36 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

So, I wonder if we can truly say that those workers freely chose the work, after all? Is it truly consent if there is no other financial option?

I think sex workers are not the only people who do a job purely for the money, or who find the work they do less than personally fulfilling. (To what extent is the choice to work at all a real choice, unless you come from inherited wealth? And many people are happy to, but we are also all restricted in one way or another).

I agree with you that it's very important to work towards giving people more real options regarding what will will fulfil their needs, for example through universal services, accessible and affordable training and education, good jobs which pay a living wage, better benefits and sufficient welfare programmes etc

Edited May 2, 2021 by seraaa

[keep_my_spleen]

3 hours ago, FunDieDumDum said:

Didn’t even Zsucifer Anderson once say that while divorce is absolutely forbidden, in extreme cases of danger to herself or her children, that a woman could refuse to live with her husband anymore? Surely a situation like this would qualify, and Anna would permanently separate from Josh but not divorce him? It’s a shitty solution for her, I know, but she’d maybe see that as her only way of protecting her kids and getting away from him while still keeping to her marriage and purity vows (no matter how many times Josh has broken them).

I'm still trying to get caught up on the thread (and it KEEPS moving! haha), but in my personal experience as an ex-fundamentalist: yes.  I was never part of IBLP but several families in my community are/were Quiverfull and/or followed many of the same thought patterns.

All that to say, yes, I've seen separation (with it being explicitly denoted that it is NOT divorce) brought up as possible solutions for situations like domestic violence.  I'm assuming it would be considered okay (though not ideal) in this case as well.

Although I agree that it is an incredibly shitty solution for Anna and the M kids combined.  

[Jinder Roles]

19 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

@browncoatslytheryn: regarding the sex work discussion on the previous thread: yes, I have had many people explain the pay/schedule hellaciousness when explaining why sex workers proven to be the best option for them, as well. Here's where I am still concerned: perhaps you can share your view on this point?

If someone has chosen to be a sex worker because our society refuses to support a living wage and work schedule with good and affordable (read: subsidized) daycare, then isn't our society trapping people into choices they might not otherwise make, just as human traffickers do? Isn't the agency for choice being taken away, albeit by a societal structure, not by an individual? In any case, the choices are limited, just the same. I've had people tell me similar stories for why they began sex work. In my experience, all were economic reasons, and none were because the person chose the work. In every case, the person told me they wanted something different, but they were either paid too little, unable to find child care, or needed (expensive) higher education to achieve their goals. Nobody cited the fact that they freely chose sex work because they loved the job, and it was fulfilling to them. 

So, I wonder if we can truly say that those workers freely chose the work, after all? Is it truly consent if there is no other financial option?

I am interested in responses.

Yes and no? You can make the same argument for so many forms of labour. 
 

There are many people who do their jobs for economic reasons and not because it’s what they truly want to do. Many people with respectable jobs are also “trapped” by the system that demands continuous labour. 
 

 IMO if capitalism didn’t demand continuous wage labour for most of the population, jobs would look a lot different. 
 

But yes it is true. Sex work is a form of income for a lot of folks who do not have access to more “respectable” forms of labour. People who are poor, gender-marginalized, disabled, black, undocumented or queer (often people with several of these identities) engage in sex work for survival. 
 

I personally believe sex work should be decriminalized and destigmatized so sex workers can be protected and have more agency. 

[Jackie3]

9 minutes ago, browncoatslytherin said:

serious question. because i honestly can't think of one person i know who would.

My husband and I both love our jobs. We'd do them even if we had Bill Gates' income.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

15 minutes ago, Jacked said:

Anyone have any thoughts on this new video from WOACB?

 

What us WOCAB?  I'm not clicking, but if this is about the stuff from a year or two ago that's when he was being sued for illegal property transactions.  Could have nothing to do with this.

With the laundry crew of Jinger and Grandma Mary gone who will clean the massive shitstain out of JB's tighty whiteys if he's ever audited.

[browncoatslytherin]

1 minute ago, Jackie3 said:

My husband and I both love our jobs. We'd do them even if we had Bill Gates' income.

that's awesome! i'm glad there are at least some folks out here with a fulfilling career that they love. it's just unfortunately far from the norm, at least in my own experience.

[Jewels64]

18 minutes ago, Jacked said:

Anyone have any thoughts on this new video from WOACB?

 

KJ is rarely correct and claims info she gets from Reddit as her own. I highly doubt KJ attended the zoom charges. 

[Kjaerringa]

3 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Oh for fucks sake! Will you stop with sex work is the same as trafficking?! All you’re doing is shaming people! That same line of thinking - people feeling like they’re trapped because it pays better - fits so many jobs outside of sex work! I know so many people who feel trapped in their current non sex worker job because it pays better than something else they’d prefer to be doing but they do it because it pays the bills! How many people are working their dream jobs for their ideal income?! 

I specifically stated this was based on my experience of speaking with people, and addressed @browncoatslytherin, who mentioned convenience store pay and schedules as an issue. At no point did I present myself as an expert, nor a person who was not willing to consider other viewpoints. I believe that our current pay structure is detrimental to all people, but women in particular, and asked for a response about this particular issue.

That's not shaming people who choose a particular job. But it does say a lot about our society and what is considered worthy of a living wage. Why should we not have conversation about that, with people who have brought the topic up themselves?

I hear you saying 'other people are stuck in jobs they don't like, too'. Of course they are. Wouldn't it be less stressful for them, if they weren't? But what does that have to do with MY question, anyway? Saying 'they aren't the only ones who are stuck' is a diversion, not a real answer. People get stuck for many reasons.i am asking if this is one of them.

[luv2laugh]

3 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

 

That is what is so awful to me as well. He knew he ruined his life, people jokingly cautioned about him being around children in the media, etc and in spring of 2019, he does this?! After all he has lost? To me, it shows that this is unhinged and dangerous. I can’t help but feel this is only the tip of the iceberg. I really hope I am wrong. I’m concerned that they won’t comply with CPS.

I wonder if Anna’s youngest brother (I think he is over 21) is going to be sent in to be the 3rd party custodian. I read in an article some of the transcript of what the judge said and she said that they need to select “who that person would be and notify the probation office so they can be interviewed”. So, I’m assuming JB is going to bail him out. I bet all the other Duggars are pissed, especially since they had their own kids around Josh.

Edited May 2, 2021 by luv2laugh

[Snarkasarus Rex]

4 minutes ago, Jewels64 said:

KJ is rarely correct and claims info she gets from Reddit as her own. I highly doubt KJ attended the zoom charges. 

Yes, KJ reads here and on Reddit, embellishes the stories, and then posts them as her own.  That said, Boob's 30+ business licenses for god knows what smack of shadiness or mismanagement (actually probably both). I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's engaged in a lot of financial shenanigans.

[Kjaerringa]

15 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Yes and no? You can make the same argument for so many forms of labour. 
 

There are many people who do their jobs for economic reasons and not because it’s what they truly want to do. Many people with respectable jobs are also “trapped” by the system that demands continuous labour. 
 

 IMO if capitalism didn’t demand continuous wage labour for most of the population, jobs would look a lot different. 
 

But yes it is true. Sex work is a form of income for a lot of folks who do not have access to more “respectable” forms of labour. People who are poor, gender-marginalized, disabled, black, undocumented or queer (often people with several of these identities) engage in sex work for survival. 
 

I personally believe sex work should be decriminalized and destigmatized so sex workers can be protected and have more agency. 

I absolutely believe sex work should be decriminalized. No question. Anything that would help to make the industry safer and give those who work within it more agency is VERY important to me. 

A higher minimum wage, better access to day care, more affordable higher ed, social programs that keep people falling through the cracks that lack of medical care, shoddy housing, and lack of transportation, access to internet, etc...all of it...are also a high priority for me.

[Joyster]

3 hours ago, The Baby Humanist said:

I'm absolutely NOT saying we should enable, excuse or ignore abuse. What I'm saying is that ℎ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ? ????? ?? ?????ℎ?.

I'm glad you were able to get out of an abusive relationship.  I hope you had someone who provided empathetic support.  I agree with you 100%.  Condemnation doesn't help someone make healthier decisions but empathy can.  I hope Anna has a non Kool-Aid drinker support person who has empathy for her situation. 

I accidentally listened to part of a today's sermon from the church Anna grew up in and some of her family still attend. I went back and listened to the whole thing because the part I accidentally clicked on sounded like the pastor was alluding to Josh's crime. It might explain Anna's mindset.  This is my summary of what he said around the 53:00 mark: 

Evil forces maneuver a person. People get focused on the person, and it’s the evil behind the person, Satan,  we should be focused on.  The Bible says to be kind to one another and tenderhearted and forgiving.  People have been offended horribly today.   The law should deal with them (sinners?), but we need to give them the opportunity to be saved and forgiven.  Bitterness neutralizes many Christians.

In the middle of this, the pastor tells a story of child sexual abuse, but he doesn't recognize it as that.   The preacher  tells of two boys at a boy's home many years ago who were "taught by their grandfathers to be homosexuals"  He talks about how this offensive was and how the law should deal with them.  He then goes into how the boys needed to forgive their grandfathers.

I listened to the majority of the sermon, and maybe I'm wrong about the indirect reference to Josh.  The pastor also goes on about bad the local McDonald's is, Walmart employees, and bad drivers, so I guess I could be.  My point is, Anna has been taught all her life that people can be saved from the sinful lusts that Satan's evil force make people feel.  They just need to be saved and wear the armor of God.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Joyster

[hoipolloi]

28 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

the idea of a woman being made responsible to fix a messed up man and especially someone so sheltered like Anna just makes me stabby.

Same here X a gajillion. This is the go-to solution for these folks, from the Steven Sitler case to the serial abuser, Pete Newman, at Kamp Kanakuk. N.B. Newman is only one of 5-6 known predators to be at or in association with Kanakuk.

At Kanakuk, Joe White's solution to multiple reports of abuse about then-director Pete Newman was to urge him to get married. When that obviously didn't work, Newman was instructed to spend more time with his wife, which of course did nothing to slow or stop his predation on campers. Ultimately & thankfully, Newman was fired then charged & convicted. 

White's explanation for not doing anything earlier? In a sworn deposition, White said that Newman's wife was his "first layer of accountability," followed by various families and individuals, all of whom had NO IDEA that anything could be wrong.

Edited May 2, 2021 by hoipolloi
Adding info

[Drala]

18 minutes ago, zee_four said:

I have a background as an addiction counselor as well as having my own history with drug addiction and am currently getting my masters in social work to be able to get a higher level of certification. So if you ever have questions or want to have an academic chat on the issue, feel free to reach out to me. I haven't been on FJ in awhile after dealing with getting out if an incredibly abusive (including physically) relationship last year but when I saw Joshgate 3.0 I came back.  I forgot how much I missed it.

 

We have a lot in common.  I also have a background in addictions and worked with adolescents as a clinical social worker for several years.  I eventually did a PhD in social work.  My dissertation looked at cultural perceptions of sexualized behavior involving adults and children. After that, I did behavioral and public health policy analysis for the state where I live.  I retired last year. 

I have also been away from FJ for a while.  I joined FJ in 2015 when I was laid up with a hip replacement and heard about Joshgate 1 & 2.  In response to my very first post in this forum, an Admin gave me a warning against speculation.  In a thread about Josh's "porn addiction," I suggested that he might be looking at child porn.  I wish my instincts had been wrong about that.

[zee_four]

42 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

@browncoatslytheryn: regarding the sex work discussion on the previous thread: yes, I have had many people explain the pay/schedule hellaciousness when explaining why sex workers proven to be the best option for them, as well. Here's where I am still concerned: perhaps you can share your view on this point?

If someone has chosen to be a sex worker because our society refuses to support a living wage and work schedule with good and affordable (read: subsidized) daycare, then isn't our society trapping people into choices they might not otherwise make, just as human traffickers do? Isn't the agency for choice being taken away, albeit by a societal structure, not by an individual? In any case, the choices are limited, just the same. I've had people tell me similar stories for why they began sex work. In my experience, all were economic reasons, and none were because the person chose the work. In every case, the person told me they wanted something different, but they were either paid too little, unable to find child care, or needed (expensive) higher education to achieve their goals. Nobody cited the fact that they freely chose sex work because they loved the job, and it was fulfilling to them. 

So, I wonder if we can truly say that those workers freely chose the work, after all? Is it truly consent if there is no other financial option?

I am interested in responses.

I'm a former stripper who at my lowest would give handjobs or blow jobs in private dances for extra money/drugs. I'm in no way shape or form proud of this and I almost never tell people.

I worked in 4-5 different clubs in a couple different states and never met a dancer who was doing the work because she was empowered about her sexuality or anything along those lines. There were a handful of girls in school or with higher education but most did not. Every girl was there because of money, most had kids and were single moms. Most had no education so doing other work wasn't as feasible. Some were undocumented and couldn't get another job. Addiction was a problem for many, especially in the dumpiest club I worked in. Many of us were women of color.

So yes, in a lot of ways if there were better jobs for women with no education, better child care options and other social programs you'd find a lot less women in positions like this. It can be frustrating when middle to upper middle class, often white women project sex positivity onto an incredibly exploitative industry that most women don't freely choose. Its frustrating when those who freely choose sex work, which is their right of course, try to speak on behalf of the industry, they're always the most educated, most well off and it can be frustrating to see them think it's all fun and games when women who don't have other options are exploited.

[seraaa]

4 minutes ago, Joyster said:

Evil forces maneuver a person. People get focused on the person, and it’s the evil behind the person, Satan,  we should be focused on.  The Bible says to be kind to one another and tenderhearted and forgiving.  People have been offended horribly today.   The law should deal with them (sinners?), but we need to give them the opportunity to be saved and forgiven.  Bitterness neutralizes many Christians.

And if she doesn't stay, she's 'failing in her Christian duty' and 'allowing Satan to sow bitterness in her heart' or whatever. Implictly, the message is that you can be sad but you better get over it.

[Kjaerringa]

2 minutes ago, zee_four said:

I'm a former stripper who at my lowest would give handjobs or blow jobs in private dances for extra money/drugs. I'm in no way shape or form proud of this and I almost never tell people.

I worked in 4-5 different clubs in a couple different states and never met a dancer who was doing the work because she was empowered about her sexuality or anything along those lines. There were a handful of girls in school or with higher education but most did not. Every girl was there because of money, most had kids and were single moms. Most had no education so doing other work wasn't as feasible. Some were undocumented and couldn't get another job. Addiction was a problem for many, especially in the dumpiest club I worked in. Many of us were women of color.

So yes, in a lot of ways if there were better jobs for women with no education, better child care options and other social programs you'd find a lot less women in positions like this. It can be frustrating when middle to upper middle class, often white women project sex positivity onto an incredibly exploitative industry that most women don't freely choose. Its frustrating when those who freely choose sex work, which is their right of course, try to speak on behalf of the industry, they're always the most educated, most well off and it can be frustrating to see them think it's all fun and games when women who don't have other options are exploited.

Thank you for sharing your very personal experience with us. This is what I was trying to convey about my own experience with friends who worked in this industry, but you have done it far more eloquently than I.

[Glasgowghirl]

WOACB is trash like pickles. She stalks people and has broadcast a lot of lies about people and will pick fights with people online just for content. She also takes things from reddit and twitter and uses it as her own content. Her only major exclusive was when she got the recordings of Amber Portwood from Teen Mom beating her ex Andrew and saying horrible stuff about him and their son James, even the info Derick and Amy have given her has not been ground breaking news. 

[browncoatslytherin]

7 minutes ago, zee_four said:

I'm a former stripper who at my lowest would give handjobs or blow jobs in private dances for extra money/drugs. I'm in no way shape or form proud of this and I almost never tell people.

I worked in 4-5 different clubs in a couple different states and never met a dancer who was doing the work because she was empowered about her sexuality or anything along those lines. There were a handful of girls in school or with higher education but most did not. Every girl was there because of money, most had kids and were single moms. Most had no education so doing other work wasn't as feasible. Some were undocumented and couldn't get another job. Addiction was a problem for many, especially in the dumpiest club I worked in. Many of us were women of color.

So yes, in a lot of ways if there were better jobs for women with no education, better child care options and other social programs you'd find a lot less women in positions like this. It can be frustrating when middle to upper middle class, often white women project sex positivity onto an incredibly exploitative industry that most women don't freely choose. Its frustrating when those who freely choose sex work, which is their right of course, try to speak on behalf of the industry, they're always the most educated, most well off and it can be frustrating to see them think it's all fun and games when women who don't have other options are exploited.

i empathise with you and those other women greatly, i do. stripping in particular is glamorised in media in ways it never should. it's a job, period. a job that folks who don't have a lot of options have to fall to.

my husband in particular, in 2019, witnessed a lot of worker exploitation at a couple of jobs he worked, one a meat shipping company, the other a pallet company. extremely low wages, literally body-breaking labour (he couldn't feel his hands for literally *months* because of nerve damage) but for someone who has a record, not even one for violent offenses but *any* record? and no education? and nebulous documentation? they don't have many other options in our area. and while my husband was able to eventually land a housekeeping job at a local hospital and make some more money, more *stable* money, many of those folks had to stay and deal with it because they also had no choice and have to sacrifice the well-being of their bodies to support themselves and their families.

[Sops2]

WOACB is stirring up shit by posting on The Caldwells instagram  " so sorry for what the Duggars have done to your family"

Disgraceful

[llucie]

55 minutes ago, Jacked said:

Anyone have any thoughts on this new video from WOACB?

 

All she shares is public information on property ownership that i am pretty sure was already disscussed here back when it happened. It is all pretty shady and involves not just Josh, but also Anna and Jim Bob.