Seewalds 45: Ben’s a REAL Pastor at a PRECIOUS Church!

[Mrs. Kravitz]

1 hour ago, therulesofjinx said:

This is something I cannot fathom at all. I live in New England in one of least (maybe actually the very least; not sure when statistics were last updated) religious states in the US. No one talks about religion. I had friends who went to church when we were growing up (mostly Catholic church) but they never talked about it; it was mostly something their parents made them do. None of my friends had religious wedding ceremonies. I cannot imagine meeting someone and asking about church. It's just so, so odd to me.

Same here. I went to Catholic school and we considered the openly atheist kids cool and edgy.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Knight of Ni said:

Maybe "bullying" was too strong of a word to use. The school had their before school Kindergarten social yesterday and i was feeling a little protective. However, I definitely remember the phrase what church do you attend? I grew up Christian so I can't speak about what would happen if you answered "no" as a child. It was definitely just assumed that everyone had a faith tradition. This was mostly assumed to be Christian. Some kids definitely thought they needed to tell the few non-religious children "the good news". 

Basically I'm hoping to make sure she is respected and at the same time making sure she is respectful. 

I can definitely remember being confronted and grilled about my lack of religious beliefs by a co-worker. I thought it was highly disrespectful and inappropriate for a work environment.  But at the time wasn't assertive enough to say so.

Edited to add

@therulesofjinx That must be nice. Years ago when my husband and I moved to a new town I can't tell you how many times we were asked "have you found a church home?" when they found out we were new to the area.

Looking back, and sometimes now with my grandkids, the main times kids or adults would talk to anyone about religion ( other than holiday explanations ) would be to invite a friend to some youth group mega-church fair or outing.
 

That does happen sometimes. No pressure or bullying though. In my large blended family we have a couple kids who are religious - one it’s a mega-church, one Catholic ish.  I think one is Wiccan. The rest I don’t know, or aren’t religious at all. That seems pretty representative of the area.

 The bullying in my super lefty area is around race and $$. But people like to think it doesn’t happen. 

[Travelfan]

As someone who was raised conservative Christian and is now an atheist I have so many thoughts on this subject…First I wouldn’t call it bullying. To me bullying is from a place of wanting to be mean and hurt someone. The Christian kids telling the other kids they have to believe or go to hell is actually from a place of great concern. These young children are taught that anyone who does not believe their version of Christianity are bound for hell. Hell and heaven are NOT based on good or bad in their belief, it’s based on wether or not you believe in Jesus. So they truly believe even the best and most kind people go to hell if they don’t believe the correct thing. When you teach children this it’s terrifying to them to think of their friends and classmates as burning in fire forever. They aren’t trying to convert the other kids to hurt them or be mean they truly think they are saving them. On the other hand as an adult who has now left Christianity I can tell you that pressure is hard to take. Just about everyone I know and love are Christians and it is hard to carry the burden of having to know they all believe I’m going yo burn in hell. I understand why they want to “help” me. I did have to drop one friend that could not move past it. Luckily my other friends have been very supportive. I know they pray for me but they also completely accept me for who I am and do not pressure me to change in any way. 

[raayx01]

I know it's christian Rap, but in Jessa's new video where she takes Ivy out, they come home and Ben is blurring rap music and it's just the weirdest thing to see. It might be christian , but you would never see that in the Duggar house or any other kids house in that family.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, Travelfan said:

As someone who was raised conservative Christian and is now an atheist I have so many thoughts on this subject…First I wouldn’t call it bullying. To me bullying is from a place of wanting to be mean and hurt someone. The Christian kids telling the other kids they have to believe or go to hell is actually from a place of great concern. These young children are taught that anyone who does not believe their version of Christianity are bound for hell. Hell and heaven are NOT based on good or bad in their belief, it’s based on wether or not you believe in Jesus. So they truly believe even the best and most kind people go to hell if they don’t believe the correct thing. When you teach children this it’s terrifying to them to think of their friends and classmates as burning in fire forever. They aren’t trying to convert the other kids to hurt them or be mean they truly think they are saving them. On the other hand as an adult who has now left Christianity I can tell you that pressure is hard to take. Just about everyone I know and love are Christians and it is hard to carry the burden of having to know they all believe I’m going yo burn in hell. I understand why they want to “help” me. I did have to drop one friend that could not move past it. Luckily my other friends have been very supportive. I know they pray for me but they also completely accept me for who I am and do not pressure me to change in any way. 

That is absolutely bullying. It may not come from a place of cruelty, but it is bullying. It shows an intolerance towards others. Telling anyone they're going to hell is cruel. It may be motivated by sincere belief, but that does not make it any easier for the child being bullied. 

[FluffySnowball]

11 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

That is absolutely bullying. It may not come from a place of cruelty, but it is bullying. It shows an intolerance towards others. Telling anyone they're going to hell is cruel. It may be motivated by sincere belief, but that does not make it any easier for the child being bullied. 

I remember some old videos of Westboro Baptist Church members - some of them have since left the church - who say the same thing: telling people that they’ll go to hell is a sign of love and care and shouldn’t be understood as bullying. But that’s just not true, it is cruel and such statements should not be made. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by FluffySnowball

[Mrs. Kravitz]

The person who commits the abuse doesn't get to decide what is and is not abuse. It's the victim who gets to decide. 

[Kailash]

@Travelfan It doesn’t matter what the intentions are. My child was surrounded by children who threw rocks at her and told her they would stop if she said she believed in Jesus. What would you call that? 

1 minute ago, Kailash said:

@Travelfan It doesn’t matter what the intentions are. My child was surrounded by children who threw rocks at her and told her they would stop if she said she believed in Jesus. What would you call that? 

Eta: And I left an extremely fundy family at age 18. I know all about the phone calls reminding me that if I don’t repent, I’ll go to hell. While I don’t agree, there is a huge difference in telling an adult that versus telling a 5 year old child that.

[Expectopatronus]

@Kailash Throwing rocks or anything at another person is absolutely bullying and the kids who chose to be violent towards your child definitely did not have good intentions. I don’t think travelfan was saying that violence, harassment or exclusion are okay; I read it as saying that for some fundie kids, telling their friends that they should go to the “right” church isn’t intended to be mean. Violence, exclusion, name calling etc is always intended to be mean. 
The definition that a number of anti bullying curricula use is that bullying is  intentional, repeated behaviours that harm another person and involve a power imbalance. Kids ganging up on another for any reason is a power imbalance and is therefore bullying. Throwing rocks at another child is intending to do harm and therefore is bullying. 

[livinginthelight]

5 hours ago, Mrs. Kravitz said:

The person who commits the abuse doesn't get to decide what is and is not abuse. It's the victim who gets to decide. 

I hear what you mean and totally agree that the abuser doesn't get to decide what abuse is. I agree with your intent. 

I'm cautious, though, about your statement that the victim decides, because I think it's a trap. Mainly because I've seen so many people on the receiving end of abuse who don't recognize the abuse for what it is. If you asked them, they would be surprised that you are suggesting that they have been abused. They often blame themselves, or minimize what happened to them. The Duggar kids being prime examples, but I see this way too often in my psychology office. A girl molested by a popular coach, who blames herself for having loose morals but doesn't understand that she was 15 and the coach was 35 and he had the power. The mysogynistic atmosphere at an office, where women are forced to listen to sexual jokes and are never able to get ahead. The employee who thinks he is showing good teamwork but in reality is carrying the workloads of three or four people. The man or woman who is constantly trying to appease their narcissistic and demanding spouse.

I could go on and on. Many of them would never, prior to lots of therapy, say that they were abused. Which is why it's so important to have some objective definitions of what constitutes abuse.

[Travelfan]

Obviously throwing rocks or tormenting someone is NOT ok!!  The behavior I have seen is kids telling/pleasing with their friends that they have to be saved or they’ll go to hell. And it’s said in a pleading type of way where the kid saying it is desperately afraid for their friend. The real abuse IMO is anyone who tells a child that!  That causes some real mental issues in children to believe that not only are they in danger of hellfire but so are all their friends and family!  Still I can UNDERSTAND (not agree with) why parents do this. They believe that if they don’t teach this to their children their children will go to hell. The whole going to hell idea is abusive in general, but I guess that was the point, to scare people to death so they would follow!  Its very complicated, to completely disagree with someone yet also fully understand why they are doing it and that in general they are doing it from a place of care and concern. The analogy I always heard when I was in Christian circles is that you see someone driving towards a cliff and they don’t know the bridge is out and they are going to plummet to their death so wouldn’t you do anything in your power to get them to stop. The most unkind and uncaring thing to do would be to let them keep driving (living their life as a non Christian) It’s out of great love and concern that you jump out in front of them and do everything you can to get their attention and try to help “save” them. Now as an atheist I feel like screaming “it’s ok the bridge isn’t really out, I’m fine”!!  But of course they don’t believe me and I don’t believe them so…

[Bluebirdbluebell]

6 hours ago, Travelfan said:

Obviously throwing rocks or tormenting someone is NOT ok!!  The behavior I have seen is kids telling/pleasing with their friends that they have to be saved or they’ll go to hell. And it’s said in a pleading type of way where the kid saying it is desperately afraid for their friend. The real abuse IMO is anyone who tells a child that!  That causes some real mental issues in children to believe that not only are they in danger of hellfire but so are all their friends and family!  Still I can UNDERSTAND (not agree with) why parents do this. They believe that if they don’t teach this to their children their children will go to hell. The whole going to hell idea is abusive in general, but I guess that was the point, to scare people to death so they would follow!  Its very complicated, to completely disagree with someone yet also fully understand why they are doing it and that in general they are doing it from a place of care and concern. The analogy I always heard when I was in Christian circles is that you see someone driving towards a cliff and they don’t know the bridge is out and they are going to plummet to their death so wouldn’t you do anything in your power to get them to stop. The most unkind and uncaring thing to do would be to let them keep driving (living their life as a non Christian) It’s out of great love and concern that you jump out in front of them and do everything you can to get their attention and try to help “save” them. Now as an atheist I feel like screaming “it’s ok the bridge isn’t really out, I’m fine”!!  But of course they don’t believe me and I don’t believe them so…

It's not okay. Yes the children are victims, because they were taught to hate. You can be a victum and a bully at the same time. Usually it's not enough to tell atheists, they need to say that to Muslims, Jews, even "the wrong kind of Christian" that they're going to hell. 

Telling someone they're going to hell is an act of hate, even if you've been led to believe otherwise. The parents may believe it or they may see it as a way to keep their children in the church. On basic level, teaching people that nonbelievers go to hell is a way keeping them going to the church. Maybe the parents believe it and maybe they're using it to scare their kids into believing it. Maybe the people telling others they're going to hell believe and maybe they like using their religion to hurt people.

[fundiefan]

On 7/14/2021 at 3:10 PM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

That is absolutely bullying. It may not come from a place of cruelty, but it is bullying. It shows an intolerance towards others. Telling anyone they're going to hell is cruel. It may be motivated by sincere belief, but that does not make it any easier for the child being bullied. 

Yeah. Telling someone they will go to hell if they don't do what you are telling them they should do...bullying. 

Kristshuns who tell themselves they are doing it with love are using words to cover their hate. The know it's not love. They just can't stop trying to wrap a package of shit in a big bow to hide it; they know no one wants their shit at face value. 

[SassyPants]

Checking in for my BEC Friday comment. I wish Jessa would have that big, ole baby boy ( yes, I’ll be surprised if it’s a girl) already. This pregnancy is bordering on the duration of Jill’s confinement with Izzy!

[Mama Mia]

On 7/15/2021 at 4:15 PM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

It's not okay. Yes the children are victims, because they were taught to hate. You can be a victum and a bully at the same time. Usually it's not enough to tell atheists, they need to say that to Muslims, Jews, even "the wrong kind of Christian" that they're going to hell. 

Telling someone they're going to hell is an act of hate, even if you've been led to believe otherwise. The parents may believe it or they may see it as a way to keep their children in the church. On basic level, teaching people that nonbelievers go to hell is a way keeping them going to the church. Maybe the parents believe it and maybe they're using it to scare their kids into believing it. Maybe the people telling others they're going to hell believe and maybe they like using their religion to hurt people.

I could see the “you’re going to Hell if you do/don’t do x,y or z” as being used by kids in either a bullying or worried context. I don’t have that much experience with religious extremists, but I can relate it to how someone might approach someone with a serious drug problem, (for example, obviously not the same things, but if you believed in Hell, and that people could do something to stop from going there) ).

An stranger/acquaintance/friend/family member is worried, is afraid they’ll die if they don’t get clean, pleads with them to stop using in an attempt to save their life.

 Or it could be used in a totally different, hostile way - looking down on them, etc.  
 

Does that make sense?

 

[SorenaJ]

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Checking in for my BEC Friday comment. I wish Jessa would have that big, ole baby boy ( yes, I’ll be surprised if it’s a girl) already. This pregnancy is bordering on the duration of Jill’s confinement with Izzy!

I know, this feels so drawn out, it’s crazy. She is due at the very latest on the 26th (very possibly earlier), so definitely no more than 2 weeks till she has the baby. 

[Mrs Ms]

5 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

I know, this feels so drawn out, it’s crazy. She is due at the very latest on the 26th (very possibly earlier), so definitely no more than 2 weeks till she has the baby. 

Due date and then up to 2 weeks overdue if the baby wants to cook a bit longer. So anything from already here to another 23 days of waiting!

[Kangaroo]

Ben's sister Michelle shared several Instagram stories at Jessa's house. She's there with her mother and the 3 kids, who are eating pizza. Jessa and Ben aren't in any of the videos.

If Jessa is in labour, she might actually be having a hospital birth. Of course, I'll believe it when I see it! 

[JermajestyDuggar]

15 minutes ago, Kangaroo said:

Ben's sister Michelle shared several Instagram stories at Jessa's house. She's there with her mother and the 3 kids, who are eating pizza. Jessa and Ben aren't in any of the videos.

If Jessa is in labour, she might actually be having a hospital birth. Of course, I'll believe it when I see it! 

That’s what I was thinking. They are watching the kids because Jessa and Ben are at the hospital having the baby. Or Jessa had the baby at home and had to be transferred AGAIN. 

[Nutella Ace]

Baby is here! Jessa just uploaded part one of the birth vlog to YouTube and they made it to the hospital in time for the birth! No name/gender reveal yet...

 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

1 minute ago, Nutella Ace said:

Baby is here! Jessa just uploaded part one of the birth vlog to YouTube and they made it to the hospital in time for the birth! No name/gender reveal yet...

 

I came to post the exact same thing xD the Seewalds sure do like their name suspense lol.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

Yup. Saw the birth update pop up on my YouTube this morning. Haven't watched yet, but JINX! To @Nutella Ace and @ihaveanexamintwodays

[VBOY9977]

I’m annoyed at the clickbaity announcement ? exploiting baby for clicks from day one…

[JermajestyDuggar]

So we were correct that Jessa’s sister in a law and mother in law were watching the kids because she was in the hospital. The picture has a good sized baby in it. Maybe another boy?

[postscript]

So all they’ve said is that the baby is here and it was a hospital birth? Bad enough they did a vlog about finding out the sex without saying what it is. I can see holding back the name for a few days, but at least announce the sex. 

I suspect they wanted another girl, which means they probably got a boy. Not that it makes a difference when they already have both sexes and are likely to have more.