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JermajestyDuggar

Unlicensed Nebraska midwife charged with homicide

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SoybeanQueen

My oldest was born in a hospital in the U.S., actually in Nebraska. It was absolutely cold and sterile, and my experience with the OBGYN was awful. He was convinced from the start that I needed a c-section and was very impatient. He seemed like he wanted to start a bunch of interventions instead of just letting me labor. Mostly I think he was mad that I was an educated person and didn't just expect to be told what to do and when. It was awful, and I will never give birth in a hospital again.

My youngest was born at a birth center with a midwife. It was wonderful. She supported me when needed but otherwise left me alone.

The insurance and liability situation in the U.S. make giving birth less pleasant and more risky in the U.S. Our maternal death rate is awful for a Western country. That probably won't change, because so many people are convinced that American women's bodies just don't work and we need a cascade of chemicals and other things to fix our brokenness.

 

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Waffle Time
DarkAnts
Posted (edited)

There is another midwife in Indiana who did a similarly appalling job. Mother was in labor for ten days.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2019/07/radical-midwife-barred-from-practicing-after-10-day-delivery-kills-baby/

Edited by DarkAnts

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AuntCloud
45 minutes ago, DarkAnts said:

There is another midwife in Indiana who did a similarly appalling job. Mother was in labor for ten days.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2019/07/radical-midwife-barred-from-practicing-after-10-day-delivery-kills-baby/

I don’t know which makes my head spin harder - thinking about that poor woman and the poor baby, or wondering what the actual bleeping eff was wrong with her family for allowing this travesty to go on for so long. How the father hasn’t kicked the “midwife” or whatever she calls herself out the door after watching his wife fade away during the course of the first 24 hours is beyond me. Didn’t she have any family checking in? Her parents, siblings or in-laws wondering what is taking so long and is she ok? How come no one thought of running interference when this dumpster fire of a birth was unfolding?

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Giraffe
8 minutes ago, AuntCloud said:

I don’t know which makes my head spin harder - thinking about that poor woman and the poor baby, or wondering what the actual bleeping eff was wrong with her family for allowing this travesty to go on for so long. How the father hasn’t kicked the “midwife” or whatever she calls herself out the door after watching his wife fade away during the course of the first 24 hours is beyond me. Didn’t she have any family checking in? Her parents, siblings or in-laws wondering what is taking so long and is she ok? How come no one thought of running interference when this dumpster fire of a birth was unfolding?

Came to post the same. How do you not say “screw not having insurance, I need a hospital”!!! How could the woman who calls herself a midwife not have the decency to admit she was in over her head?!! 10 days!!! TEN! HOW?!

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Ozlsn
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DarkAnts said:

There is another midwife in Indiana who did a similarly appalling job. Mother was in labor for ten days.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2019/07/radical-midwife-barred-from-practicing-after-10-day-delivery-kills-baby/

I read the article and thought "well who'da thunk it, that imaginary legal magic cloak of avoidance doesn't work at all!"

11 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Came to post the same. How do you not say “screw not having insurance, I need a hospital”!!! How could the woman who calls herself a midwife not have the decency to admit she was in over her head?!! 10 days!!! TEN! HOW?!

And in total agreement with all of the above. I mean there's being a first time mum and not being sure what's normal and there's being in agony for 10 freaking days. I wouldn't have got past 24 hours.

Edited by Ozlsn

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JermajestyDuggar

“Sovereign Citizen midwives believe they can practice medicine outside of the law. They ask their clients to sign bogus contracts that promise them immunity from the law.

However, the contracts aren’t worth the paper they are signed on. Instead, the clients trust the midwives and move forward with unskilled women that have no business delivering babies.”

^^^This is exactly what Angela Hock did. These women sound like they are exactly the same in their sovereign citizen beliefs. They both say no ultrasounds too. They are these woo peddling wackadoos that are killing babies and putting women’s lives at risk. I hope this “movement” eventually folds once these assholes realize they aren’t immune from prosecution. 

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Howl
10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Sovereign Citizen midwives believe they can practice medicine outside of the law. They ask their clients to sign bogus contracts that promise them immunity from the law.

Yup, absolutely classic Sovereign Citizen thinking. And the whole thing with bogus documents....

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JermajestyDuggar

Oh surprise surprise! I looked up this woman on Facebook and she’s Facebook friends with Angela Hock. These unlicensed sovereign citizen women need to all be stopped. 

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FaithAndReason

I don’t know where to begin with this clusterfuck of a situation. From the lack of insurance (ACA anyone?) to the complete shunning of medical care to the crazy midwife and the lack of people supporting this birthing mother. What a train wreck

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JillyO

I really hope she's going to face criminal charges as well. Barring someone from practicing midwifery who was never licensed to practice it in the first place is no punishment at all. It's like barring me from flying a plane when I've never been licensed to fly a plane. After tricking someone into believing I was a licensed pilot and then killing them in a plane crash.

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JermajestyDuggar
31 minutes ago, JillyO said:

I really hope she's going to face criminal charges as well. Barring someone from practicing midwifery who was never licensed to practice it in the first place is no punishment at all. It's like barring me from flying a plane when I've never been licensed to fly a plane. After tricking someone into believing I was a licensed pilot and then killing them in a plane crash.

It’s the only way these morons will stop. You can see on FB they all have their own “practices” and they all seem to be pretty anti-hospital and very into the woo. If these people go to jail, it will scare the others away from “practicing.”

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hoipolloi

This woman needs serious jail time. Years of it. 

Sorry for her kids, but maybe this means CPS will require them to go to a real school, public or legitimate private school, as opposed to "home schooling" by their wack parents.

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JermajestyDuggar
36 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

This woman needs serious jail time. Years of it. 

Sorry for her kids, but maybe this means CPS will require them to go to a real school, public or legitimate private school, as opposed to "home schooling" by their wack parents.

These sovereign citizen free birthing groups need to be shut down. Because right now, the only way to prosecute these nut jobs is AFTER someone dies. 

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DarkAnts
53 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

This woman needs serious jail time. Years of it. 

Sorry for her kids, but maybe this means CPS will require them to go to a real school, public or legitimate private school, as opposed to "home schooling" by their wack parents.

And be immunized.

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Ozlsn
14 hours ago, JillyO said:

I really hope she's going to face criminal charges as well. Barring someone from practicing midwifery who was never licensed to practice it in the first place is no punishment at all. It's like barring me from flying a plane when I've never been licensed to fly a plane. After tricking someone into believing I was a licensed pilot and then killing them in a plane crash.

I suspect the barring her from practicing is so that when she's caught again (and she probably will be, sigh) they can add contempt of court to the charges and look at jailing her immediately. It's interesting that the case is now with the Sheriff's department (I think - read it a while ago) for further investigation of potential charges relating to the baby's death. 

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JermajestyDuggar

I blame the internet for part of this. Don’t get me wrong, I love the internet. But I think this group of free birth keepers in particular are probably cult like in nature and would never have found one another if not for the internet. These women all seem to pay one another on the back and reinforce each other’s bullshit woo beliefs. They are likely confident in their woo because they have all these other women telling them that vagina steams and herbs cure everything. So they think they can deliver these babies without any sort of modern medicine or real medical training. This isn’t the only “internet cult thinking” group around. I think there are plenty of them. Anti vaccine groups are another example. I wish these groups would be disbanded but that’s basically impossible. As long as there’s internet, these people will congregate online.

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elsiedindin

The L&D unit where I work is a nice mix between a hospital and birthing center atmosphere. Women labor however they're most comfortable, as long as baby is okay too. That's the trouble with birth, things can go very wrong very quickly. Anyone (or no one!) can attend a truly uncomplicated "easy" labor and birth. The education, experience  and training is not so much for those births as for the scary ones. Recognizing complications, recognizing when you're out of your depth -- these are hugely important parts of nursing (and medical) training. 

One benefit of such training is that you see what can happen when everything goes pear-shaped. It can be extremely scary. Depending on how much oxygen the baby is getting, you could have just a few minutes to prevent a permanent, life-altering brain injury. You do not want to be laboring in your living room when that happens -- you want to be in a hospital, seconds away from the OR. It's not the way most people want to deliver, but if it's a choice between a scar and a dead baby, I know which one I'd pick. 

Unlicensed homebirth midwives can operate with relative impunity in my state, so we do sometimes get transfers from home. Good outcomes in those cases are unfortunately rare. 

I think sometimes the woman giving birth has not thought realistically about what is important to her during her labor. The homebirth people seem very focused on an empowering experience for the mother. I hope women do have a positive experience of labor, but that's not the main goal. I get being skeptical of hospitals and invasive interventions, but if the goal is healthy mama/healthy baby then please trust our concern. People never think the worst could happen to them but it can, horribly quickly.

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Ozlsn

@JermajestyDuggar I think the internet makes it easier but a lot of them would still have congregated through word of mouth and fringe churches. Tara Westover's mother was a known "midwife" in rural Idaho - she got business that way and that was before the internet was widely available.

There are points where I think that for some of these women freebirthing would be safer than hiring these "midwives" - a completely unqualified assistant at least knows that they don't know anything and is possibly more likely to call for help. There is a strong disincentive for "midwives" like Angela Hock to call for outside help because 1. it exposes the deficiencies in their available services and 2. what they have been doing is illegal and they know it. And 3. it forces them to recognise that they are in fact not much more qualified than a taxi driver in situations where things are not going as planned, and if some of your identity is bound up in being a respected midwife then that is tough.

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LoonyLovegood
On 7/6/2019 at 4:25 PM, Aine said:

I agree to an extent but I still think the real blame lies with the supposed "medical professional" claiming to be able to do all these things. I know that most here are like me in that we do our own research and try and educate ourselves on a myriad of things but not all people have the capability to do that. Whether those reasons are indoctrination, lack of formal education and the associated ability to synthesize large amounts of information or understand basic science, or under education. In my own profession, I think you'd be running at well over 90% of the public that don't know the difference between a Clinical Psychologist, a Licensed Professional Counselor, and a "therapist". 

This woman should have been shut down well before she could set up this whole farce online and attract patients. I doubt (and maybe this is my own bias and a generalization...I don't know) that her patients were well educated and unfortunately, people who don't have the same access to education as others are more likely to fall for a quack like this woman.

In my own field, I've had patients come to me after doing YEARS of 'Heart Math' therapy with a Licensed Professional Counselor covered by insurance and didn't understand why it wasn't working and felt the reason they weren't getting better was something wrong with them rather than the counselor. I'm not saying the gold-standard evidence-based therapies are 100%- they aren't and I shift and double check myself when I'm not seeing improvement rather than allow someone to keep paying money or ever let them blame themselves. If I'm not motivating them or changing behavioral contingencies to give them the best possible chance at making change, then I'm not doing my job. But I can guarantee you that crap like 'Heart Math' only sees any improvement it could ever report due to placebo, and placebo is powerful, but it is not long lasting and that person is taking your money for pseudoscience.

I believe the parents are partially responsible but the onus goes on the 'health provider' that lies and presents themselves, their knowledge, and their expertise in a fraudulent way. 

So.... still reading this thread, but I got to your comment and just had to ask... as a therapist who will probably have my LPC at the end of this year 🤞, what in the WORLD is heart math?? I did a quick google search and saw something dealing with an app,  it maybe I need to look into it more (not to use it or anything).....

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JermajestyDuggar

I just checked the Angela Hock’s Nebraska Birth Keeper Facebook page and something was shared yesterday. Why is she keeping her page up and sharing stuff? That’s some big balls in my opinion. 

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JermajestyDuggar

And this is why babies die:

DD68BD1D-143E-4256-BEAC-218099DDF204.jpeg

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Howl
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gustava said:

OK, this article brings the Sovereign Citizen aspect front and center. 

Remember that Angela Hock said she was thrilled when she discovered PMAs (Private Membership Associations) . 

<snip> this is the Sov Cit crap in a nutshell. 

Quote

They claim to work above the law. Meanwhile, two of their clients’ newborns are six feet under.

Within a month of each other, two infants in Nebraska and Indiana died during home births performed by unlicensed midwives, officials in those states allege. Both midwives presented themselves as members of “Private Membership Associations”—groups they claimed allowed them to practice midwifery independent of laws and medical regulations.

PMAs aren’t a real legal entity. They’re a conspiracy-flavored creation that has nonetheless drawn a wide circle of unlicensed birth assistants and expectant parents seeking an alternative to expensive hospital births.

ETA: Those of us who followed the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge a few years back got a big dose of Sovereign Citizen nut baggery. 

Edited by Howl

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JermajestyDuggar

By the way, the H.E.R.B.A.L Facebook page is one big dumpster fire of ignorance, lies, misinformation, fearmongering, and woo. If you check it out, be prepared with a barf bag ready.

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Howl
Posted (edited)
On 7/20/2019 at 10:15 PM, DarkAnts said:

There is another midwife in Indiana who did a similarly appalling job. Mother was in labor for ten days.

This woman had an infection, was running a fever and the midwife talked her out of going to the hospital.  That woman is incredibly lucky to be alive. 

Some  Sov Cit wing nuts could be in for a big tutorial on just how useless PMAs are in the eyes of the law.  On the other hand, they could land a sympathetic jury of their peers and walk free. 

I wonder if the parents of the dead babies are consulted about whether they want the DA to bring charges, or if they move forward unilaterally.  I'm assuming if the State or local DAs don't bring charges, the parents could sue.   As noted upthread, Ms. Hock was charging $3000 to $4000 for her services, so she was making serious bank on practicing medicine without a license.  

Edited by Howl

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