Dillards 78: Taste the Rainbow

[Meggo]

I tell my 6 year old to make good choices. Not all the time but I do use it. We don’t say people are good or bad- they just make not great choices.

also- northerner here (and living in Canada too) and I have my son call other people Miss or Mr. Because we hang out with a kid whose mom works at our daycare- she is Miss Jennifer. (Not her name) and his best friends Mom is also Miss Jen (Not her name).

 

i just don’t like kids calling me by my first name. I can be Aunt, Miss or Shortstacks Mom- but I never EVER called my friends parents by anything other than Mr or Mrs. (till I got to high school and called my besties mom “Mom”)

[Satan'sFortress]

5 hours ago, NoKidsAndCounting said:

Taken from the American Heritage Girls Page:

Our Inclusion Policy

All biological girls of any color, race, national origin and socioeconomic status who agree to live according to the standards of the AHG Oath and the AHG Creed are invited to be members of American Heritage Girls.

Well, I guess it's their right to say this, but it's still full of ugly. 

I wonder if they let in all religions?

 

@feministxtian I certainly didn't mean to criticize the use of ma'am and sir----just relating that as a Northern kid transplanted South, it felt foreign and uncomfortable to me.

21 minutes ago, Meggo said:

i just don’t like kids calling me by my first name. I can be Aunt, Miss or Shortstacks Mom- but I never EVER called my friends parents by anything other than Mr or Mrs. (till I got to high school and called my besties mom “Mom”)

This.  Me too.

[JillyO]

As someone who grew up speaking German, I guess I don't understand why I need to show someone more respect just because they're older than me. In German, adults either call each other by their first name and the familiar "du" or by their last name (Herr/Frau Last Name) and the polite "Sie". But you wouldn't see, say, a 30-year-old addressing a 50-year-old with the polite "Sie" and the 50-year-old responding with the familiar "du" just because they're older. Once everyone is an adult (you wouldn't address a child as "Sie"), it's all on equal footing.

I understand, of course, that it's all about what you're used to. But having to address your own parents as "sir" and "ma'am" to me implies an emotional distance, I guess. I can't really see how I could feel emotionally close to someone who insisted I call them "sir" or "ma'am". YMMV.

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

Ma'am and sir were part of my growing up in the south. It's continued to my children and grandchildren. Its a respect thing...My kids will say "yes ma'am" and "yes sir" to us even now. Dealing with someone on the phone, they will do the same. 

Look, just because YOU (generic you) don't like it, don't go slamming shit you don't like or understand. Sorta like saying "y'all" and "ain't" doesn't make you a dumb redneck. IF someone argues with me I will bombard you with YouTube videos of fucking astronauts using those words...and they ain't dumb rednecks. 

I don't think anyone is "slamming" it.

It's a cultural thing. Either people are going to do it or not do it based on whether they were raised to or took up the practice.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Dreadcrumbs
wording

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, Meggo said:

I tell my 6 year old to make good choices. Not all the time but I do use it. We don’t say people are good or bad- they just make not great choices.

also- northerner here (and living in Canada too) and I have my son call other people Miss or Mr. Because we hang out with a kid whose mom works at our daycare- she is Miss Jennifer. (Not her name) and his best friends Mom is also Miss Jen (Not her name).

 

i just don’t like kids calling me by my first name. I can be Aunt, Miss or Shortstacks Mom- but I never EVER called my friends parents by anything other than Mr or Mrs. (till I got to high school and called my besties mom “Mom”)

Again, it's just cultural. I'm totally fine being called by my first name and in my main circles that's what we do.In a very, very multicultural place where I lived (raised my kid and nannied the grandkids), it's different for everyone. Some children told me they were not comfortable calling me by my name and wanted to say Mrs. X, and that was fine. Some kids referred to me as "Auntie" because that is what they call all adult women, and that is fine. And in some instances Miss Kathy or whatever was called for, so that's what the kids in my charge did (got to say, though, that Miss First Name seems a lot more natural than Mr. First Name).
But ma'am and sir as usual ways to address adults still sounds odd to this Central Jersey ear, much less people insisting on it as a sign of "respect." Yes MA'AM or yes SIR has entirely different connotations. You say it to emphasize a point. I just find it so odd that instead of "that's how we do things here" it becomes some kind of indication of kids having or lacking respect.

[jillsdopplerofdoom]

I'm from the UK. Growing up I would call the parents of my friends 'Mr/Miss/Mrs their last name' if it was the first time I'd met them and usually they gave me permission to use their first name. For parents it's usually Mum/Mummy/Dad/Daddy. The UK seems pretty relaxed, except at school where it's Mrs/Miss/Mr their last name. However we always found out the first names of our teachers, had great fun doing so, and they knew about it too. No 'yes Ma'am/Si'. The first time I heard a Duggarling using the phrase I was a bit confused.

[nvmbr02]

I prefer people call me by my first name and generally request my kids' friends do. Most do, some don't (generally out of respect of their parents rules). I did teach my kids to call their friends' parents by Ms/Mrs/Mr last name, until instructed otherwise. We don't generally use sir/ma'am in our house and I also don't like being called ma'am, but again we did teach our kids to use it in certain circumstances, like when the person in front of you drops something and you need to get their attention. It is more polite than "Hey you!" anyway.

 

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, JillyO said:

I understand, of course, that it's all about what you're used to. But having to address your own parents as "sir" and "ma'am" to me implies an emotional distance, I guess. I can't really see how I could feel emotionally close to someone who insisted I call them "sir" or "ma'am". YMMV.

I'd agree without context, but that's not how I perceive the custom at all. It's not like most parents expect to always be called "sir" or "ma'am." It really would seem unbearably formal to me if parents did expect a child to always say, "Ma'am, may I have a cookie" to their own mother, which is why I'd agree with the way you described it, but, to someone who is used to the convention, responding "yes ma'am" or "yes sir" feels a lot different from that, and not overly formal at all.

It's only certain situations/phrases, which is likely different from how you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who speaks a language with a formal "you," kind of like how I feel like even if I know the rules I can't quite understand the nuances of using the formal vs. informal you in another language.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Rachel333

[Bastet]

I was an adult before I realized that my parents did not have a name for his/her mother-in-law.  This made sense for my mother since she didn’t get along with hers and they’ve were never together in my memory, but my mother’s mother lived with us and my father liked her and she him. I think the fact that he was always joking around kept it from feeling odd to my sister and me. He’d say, “Tell your grandmother I’ll take her to the hairdresser” with a wiggle of his eyebrow and I’d laugh. Sometimes he’d call her “Gargan” because that’s what I would call her as a child, but then lots of family members called her that. I was the first grandchild and Gargan was what I made of Grandmother and it stuck because it was so wildly inappropriate. 

    We weren’t generally an odd family, but we did have a shared taste for the wildly inappropriate. 

    First post  

  

[finnlassie]

9 hours ago, meee said:

What?! When did they ever check?! OMG!

I talked about this with my mum a while back, and she said "Oh yeah, it was really never allowed, but my guess is that no one had really complained about it due to being afraid of the teacher... and when one of the girls did, hell broke loose." My mum had the most amazing p.e. teacher when she was a teenager in the 70s, she was very progressive in terms of physical education and just an amazing person altogether according to mum. But as she moved on in her adult life, she noticed there were women talking among each other about "did your teacher make you prove it too?" and mum was understandably floored.

So my assumption regarding my case, which likely is true, is that either in the 90s or the start of the millenium a girl or a group of girls complained about this to city, which got the gears turning.  Because sadly, when you complain to the principal about a long time employee, the response can be a shrug and a "Mrs XYZ is an integral part of this school."

It's so perverted.

 

9 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Sounds like the equivalent of the U.S.'s "SIR I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ASK YOU TO LEAVE." 

True!!!

Edited July 11, 2019 by finnlassie

[bal maiden]

Regarding the boys sharing a room, I bet they share because it's significantly easier to settle two small kids for sleep when they're in the same room. My children who are approximately of an age with Jill's kids also share, otherwise I'd be back and forth between their rooms for hours at bedtime!

[Smee]

I’m not used to “yes sir” and “yes ma’am” so to me it does feel rather submissive, but words are just words, it’s the cultural context that gives language meaning so if it’s not overly authoritarian in some areas then meh. I was a high school teacher here in Australia and weirdly, I found that at all-girls schools the students would simply address us as “Mrs <surname>” or “Mr <surname>” but at co-Ed or all-boys schools we were addressed as “Miss” and “Sir”. 

[JordynDarby5]

I agree its really more what your used to or taught. I'm not used to the "sir" or "ma'am"  Except for teachers I grew up calling everyone by their names even adults. It was what I was taught and rarely ran into an adult who had a problem with it. It just always seemed so formal to call people "sir" or "Ma'am" except for when I was working at a store talking to customers using "sir", ma'am, Mr., Mrs. Ms. and Miss although with women it was hard to know which one to pick they did always correct you. Call center jobs we were instructed to use the customers name to come off more friendly and casual. 

[OyToTheVey]

Just read over this convo. I'm such a Yank that when people call me ma'am I wanna slap them lol I'm not old enough to be a ma'am. But I'm also Russian so we have the formal and the casual tense of 'you'. But that's only used for older people like grandparents age customers or their friends. I would never address a friend with the formal 'you' or with a ma'am. I also call all my aunts and uncles with just their first name. Super casual. I feel like if their your relatives there's no need for formal. They changed your diapers, it's ok to say "what's up John" or "hi Mary". 

Edited July 11, 2019 by OyToTheVey

[Meggo]

12 hours ago, JillyO said:

 

I understand, of course, that it's all about what you're used to. But having to address your own parents as "sir" and "ma'am" to me implies an emotional distance, I guess. I can't really see how I could feel emotionally close to someone who insisted I call them "sir" or "ma'am". YMMV.

I can't imagine asking my son to call me ma'am (again - cultural differences here - I'm not judging, just interested in that difference in cultures). He calls me Momma, Daddy (sometimes he forgets who he is looking for) and if he's just come from school "Miss" (because every person in authority at school seems to be Miss - man or woman - again - he's 6). There are few times he's called me by first name or by Miss Meggo - because he hears other kids do it and finds it hysterical. (that doesn't fly - I'm Momma or Mommy until you want to call me Mom) 
 

[Meggo]

Interestingly - I have nieces and nephews who have kids older than mine - and these are "kids" who are about 10 or 12 years younger than I am. I have NEVER asked to be called "Aunt" by that set of kids. My theory is - If I can go drinking with you - I'm now just Meggo. Especially since some of them were already in high school by the time I came along. 

Their kids, and then the group of kids who were YOUNG when I came into their lives - I'm okay being Aunt Meggo to them. 

[nst]

13 hours ago, Meggo said:

 

 

i just don’t like kids calling me by my first name. I can be Aunt, Miss or Shortstacks Mom- but I never EVER called my friends parents by anything other than Mr or Mrs. (till I got to high school and called my besties mom “Mom”)

years ago i was temping and i ended up in a company where one of my childhood's friends mom worked. 

The people in the office kept calling her by her given name "jenny" 

I was like you can't call Mrs C....."jenny" 

there are just some grownups even though  you are grown you cant use their given name. 

it's just wrong 

Edited July 11, 2019 by nst

[purple_summer]

With parents, I didn’t have to use ma’am and sir when I could just say mom or dad. Usually it’s “yes ma’am” to acknowledge you understand what you’re being told/asked to do. Or if a parent calls you by your name like 

parent: Jane! 

Child: sir? 

because you don’t refer to your parents by their first name.  

[HereticHick]

Just a comment, not a judgement--this discussion of "sir" and "ma'am" and their linguistic equivalents reminds me how overwhelming white FJ sometimes seems to be.

In my personal experience, a significant amount of my family and friends who are people of color--whether they are living in Boston, Singapore, Kolkata, Hong Kong, Accra, Tulsa, Colombo, or Atlanta--were raised, and are raising their children to, say "sir" and "ma'am"

Edited July 11, 2019 by HereticHick

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

21 hours ago, finnlassie said:

In Finland, it's not that common to use some sort of "honorifics", but there's one thing that I'm really accustomed to (and I think so are my friends). When talking to older folks, instead of saying "sinä", the singular of you, we use the plural of you, "te". Apparently it's common in Germany, too. 

I only say Mrs (Rouva) to older women if they're, well, in my eyes 75+, because it's rather certain that they're either married or widows. For some reason I don't call older men Mr (Herra). I dunno why, really, it's not that uncommon that other people use it. The word also means gentleman in certain contexts... like, the first thing that comes to my mind is "Herra on nyt hyvä ja poistuu tästä baarista", which means "And you, gentleman, need to leave these premises (/this bar) right now." So uuuh... I mainly connect herra to misbehaving idiotic men I guess?

The polite/plural you is in almost all Indo-European languages, and I guess the Uralic ones like Finnish too! Cool!

English used to have this, where thou was singular/informal but we got lazy at some point (common theme in English) and lost it. So I guess you could say "you" is the polite form and everyone gets it.

English has lost so much Indo-European grammar (gendered nouns, cases, etc.) that some people think it was simplified (creole-ized) by mass immigration from Scandinavia during Viking times. This book is a fun read: https://www.amazon.ca/Our-Magnificent-Bastard-Tongue-History/dp/1592404944

(Disclaimer: I like John McWhorter as a linguist but I find his views on race a bit cringey. Oh well, there's gotta be a few conservative-minded old black guys out there, right?)

[Four is Enough]

16 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

Mr. Fluffer and I always say "make good choices!" to our teenager when she leaves the house. Only it's just us being goofballs. I just don't think I could say it seriously. 

I still say that to my daughter... like an endearment thing...

14 hours ago, JillyO said:

I understand, of course, that it's all about what you're used to. But having to address your own parents as "sir" and "ma'am" to me implies an emotional distance, I guess. I can't really see how I could feel emotionally close to someone who insisted I call them "sir" or "ma'am". YMMV.

Not distant per se. But when you hear, "Do you understand me?" The appropriate response is , "yes sir/ma'am". Keeps you from getting a whoopin' if you just hiss "yes" at your parents. ? Heck, I'm 64 and still answer my dad "Yes sir" sometimes! But it's sort of an emphasis on what has been said, rather than submission . Of course, he's 90 and has been known to say, "yes sir" to doctors giving him instructions.

 

11 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

" It really would seem unbearably formal to me if parents did expect a child to always say, "Ma'am, may I have a cookie" to their own mother, which is why I'd agree with the way you described it, but, to someone who is used to the convention, responding "yes ma'am" or "yes sir" feels a lot different from that, and not overly formal at all.

And in that instance, it would be, "Mom/Grandma/Mrs. Friend's mom, may I have a cookie?" and then "thank you, ma'am"

[rebeccawriter01]

On 7/9/2019 at 7:17 PM, MiddleAgedLady said:

I bet they don’t have a basement or an attic to store all those tubs. Some parts of that area of the country can’t have basements because of rock. 

It doesn't appear that they do. Many houses with a patio are on a slab that continues out for the patio space. 

I do wonder if maybe they modified the house plan a little to add that fourth bedroom/office. Many new plans that are currently popular have a dining room space (open on one or two sides) where Derrick's office sits. 

I've been doing a lot of house searching lately and the floorplan is familiar looking to me. It is just me and my two little girls. I made a comment to the realtor that I didn't need an eat in kitchen and a dining room. We eat on trays in front of the television. She showed me that there was an alternative plan to place walls and make it an office so that the girls could share a room for now, one would be mine, one would be an office, and one a guest room. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

I'm thinking about what honorifics I did grow up with, and yes it was still the norm to call adults unrelated to you Mrs/Ms and Mr, but it was also not unusual for teachers to use "Ms/Mr your last name" to address a student. I called my aunts and uncles "Aunt/Uncle their name".

At some point I stopped referring my parents by any name to their faces. This is mostly a quirk of my own and my mom doesn't seem to care. I don't speak with my father anymore. I also don't speak with any aunts or uncles anymore.

@HereticHick This is a really good addition to the discussion. You're right about people of color teaching their kids this stuff no matter where they are geographically.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Dreadcrumbs
riffles and additions

[justodd]

Growing up, I was almost always taught that Mrs./Miss/Ms./Mr. was the way to go, and sir or ma’am were good manners if you didn’t know someone. When I worked retail, I always used sir or miss when dealing with customers. (A lot of elderly women got a kick out of being called “miss!) I always saw it as a sign of respect, to the point that when a friend’s dad told me to call him my his first name, my actual response was “okay, Mr. Gonzales, I’ll call you Roy.”

That said, I’ve recently developed some very complicated feelings about using gendered terms of any kind with people I don’t know. A good friend of mine is a fairly butch trans woman, and it seems almost every time we go shopping, a well-meaning cashier will address her as “sir.” Even when I try to head it off at the pass by making a comment like “she really likes this” or “that’s one of her favorites,” a lot of people just don’t register it.

Just this Saturday, we had a great time browsing vintage dresses at an antique store, talking about which styles would look good on her, and when she went to pay for a really cute top she decided to buy as a weight loss goal, we were both riding pretty high on all the fun we’d been having. Then, the cashier who rung her up misgendered her and it was like the joy was just sucked out of both of us.  I know - we both know, really - that the intentions were good, but good intentions don’t magically prevent hurt. This time, I think, hurt more than most, because we’d had an impromptu sleepover the night before and the whole thing (the sleepover, the giggling over junk food, talking about cute boys, looking at pretty clothes) was this great example of the kind of girlhood she was denied growing up. 

I appreciate people’s good intentions, and I try to be polite, myself, but I also don’t want to cause anyone unnecessary hurt, and it can be a fine, fine line sometimes.

[Exposedknees]

After reading this thread I realized that it is the norm in my area for children to call adults Ms/Mr*First name.* I never thought this was weird.  My kids are post-grad in their 20s. I only noticed this morning that not only did my daughter ask me if I had plans with my friend " Miss _____" this afternoon; but her old roommate referred to me as "Miss Exposed" yesterday??.  I work in an arts organization with a lot of kids. My nametag shows my first name. It doesn't bother me if little kids call me by my first name, but it happens very rarely. I live in NC, so there's a southern influence, but I live in a urban university town suburb.