Seewalds 41: Christian Hero Ivy Jane

[JordynDarby5]

8 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

our second child will be a boy 

Congratulations!

[PumaLover]

I was at Walmart tonight (the Walmarts acc. to Bro Gary) and the lady there was waiting for her daughter in the dressing room. She told another customer that she had 7 boys before her daughter and desperately wanted a girl. (Said daughter then emerged from the dressing room in a too-skimpy two-piece and the mom said no way.)

In my experience it seems that girls are desperately wanted (moreso than boys if you only have girls). My ex was one of four and his mom (always) made it clear how badly she wanted girls. His brother and SIL had three boys and desperately wanted girls (ended up adopting). My current SIL had three boys and really wanted girls. One of my best friends has two boys and still wants a daughter.

I've read on here before about gender disappointment and how it's a real thing. I never had bio kids so I can't completely understand. My adopted daughter is probably not even considered a tomboy-she's far past that. She wore nice pants and a shirt to her recent graduation-she wouldn't be caught dead in a dress, and I wasn't about to force her to wear one. So even if you get the "jinder" you're hoping for, he or she may not act the way you might hope them to be (and that's OK.)

Also congratulations @VelociRapture and I wish you a safe rest of your pregnancy and smooth delivery.  

[VelociRapture]

5 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I love her nonchalance of dropping big news like this. 

Congrats on your Velocoboy!  I hope he hangs in longer than his sister.  

Thanks! I’m hoping he does too. Mostly because I’m going to be super pissed about getting all these shots for nothing if he doesn’t. ?

[Sullie06]

5 hours ago, PumaLover said:

I was at Walmart tonight (the Walmarts acc. to Bro Gary) and the lady there was waiting for her daughter in the dressing room. She told another customer that she had 7 boys before her daughter and desperately wanted a girl. (Said daughter then emerged from the dressing room in a too-skimpy two-piece and the mom said no way.)

In my experience it seems that girls are desperately wanted (moreso than boys if you only have girls). My ex was one of four and his mom (always) made it clear how badly she wanted girls. His brother and SIL had three boys and desperately wanted girls (ended up adopting). My current SIL had three boys and really wanted girls. One of my best friends has two boys and still wants a daughter.

I can defiantly see this. We have a good friend who's parents had 3 boys, they decided to adopt a little girl after that then try again because all they wanted was a girl and they would not be guaranteed one if they had another biological child. It's wonderful that they were able to give their daughter a loving home and good life but that's a lot to go through (international adoption) to just to have a girl. 

I also have a co-worker who is pregnant with twins right now after struggling with infertility. When they had their first anatomy scan they could only tell the gender of one baby and it is a boy. They had a gender reveal and revealed one was a boy and the other was still a mystery. She cried and actually threw a hissy fit and said she will be devastated if they are both boys because she was meant to be a "girl mom". The other baby has since been determined to be a girl but I was shocked because all I could think was how blessed she was to have two healthy babies. 

[mango_fandango]

It’s kind of crazy that people are still obsessed with the idea of a “pigeon pair” (ie one boy one girl); I’ve heard/seen about mothers of three girls being asked if they’re going to try for a boy, and vice versa. With parents of boys it’s all “oh they’ll fight! They’re dirty/smelly” etcand with girls it’s “oh it’ll be hell in the teenage years when they all get their period! Girls are really bitchy!!” They’re such tired stereotypes. 

 

[Charliemae]

Having a preference for the sex of your baby is normal, common, and totally fine.  The sex disappointment is on the fringe, but still common enough to deserve empathy.

Some people want what they had; IE. If you had a sibling you may initially hope to emulate that relationship...  Or maybe you always wished you had a same sex sibling growing up so you want that for your child.   Some women feel more comfortable with the idea of puberty with a same sex child-when you also have periods they seem less scary than nocturnal emissions. Some people want to dress thier babies in cute (to them) outfits.  The vast majority are going to love their child no matter what.  It's okay to have a preferre. 

Also why are so many posters using "gender" for this discussion? I'm fairly certain sex is the more accurate term since we're talking about ultrasounds. 

[nolongerIFBx]

11 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

I think you are right about the Duggar's reaction to their children's sex. But I wonder if a part of this is actually due to their strict gender conformity. Hear me out (I will try to explain my theory well but english is my second language).

From what I have observed, in very religious people, they seem to value women and men equally in the sense that they are both created by God. In that aspect, both sexes were created by God but to fuflfill different purposes. To be born female or male is also a gift from God (this is not real theology, just my perception of the fundie mindset here. Someone can correct me if I am wrong). I think that because both women's and men's roles are ordained by God, they are valuable and important.

I would say it is very close to the theory of seperated spheres. A godly man provides for his family (so works in the public sphere). And a goldy woman is a mother in charge of rearing the children (so in the private/domestic sphere). I think for fundies, both these gender roles are important in a home. That is.... as long as they are respected. I think fundies are as happy to be parents to girls and to boys in that regard. I think a true problem would arise if one of the children did question gender norms, cis-normative sexuality and so on.

Sort of the different but equal. Yes, maybe in some homes. I know I certainly felt less for not being male, but then this was the kindof stuff I had to listen too 3+ times a week: "A woman didn’t write this book. No woman wrote the scriptures right here. A man wrote the Bible – got it from God. A man hung on the cross. His name is Jesus Christ and God called a man to lead the church here. Hey! I’m glad I’m a man!" -Jack Schaap

[VelociRapture]

27 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

It’s kind of crazy that people are still obsessed with the idea of a “pigeon pair” (ie one boy one girl); I’ve heard/seen about mothers of three girls being asked if they’re going to try for a boy, and vice versa. With parents of boys it’s all “oh they’ll fight! They’re dirty/smelly” etcand with girls it’s “oh it’ll be hell in the teenage years when they all get their period! Girls are really bitchy!!” They’re such tired stereotypes. 

 

This pregnancy has been rough for me and I flat out told my husband after my first ultrasound at around 7 weeks that I wasn’t having anymore kids after this. We would have been happy either way regarding this baby’s sex, so long as the baby and our daughter are both healthy and happy. The only reason I’m glad we’ll have a “pigeon pair” once baby two arrives is because it dramatically cuts the risk of people pestering me about when we’ll have a third. It’s no one’s business whether we’ll have more kids or not and I’m glad that I should be able to avoid feeling uncomfortable if people asked that. 

I’m not looking forward to people possibly acting like this was such a huge accomplishment though. It’s not like we did anything to make it happen - it’s random chance that we have a daughter and that we’ll also have a son. It’s really weird to me that people act like it’s a big accomplishment when simply having a healthy and safe birth is the real accomplishment. 

16 minutes ago, Charliemae said:

Having a preference for the sex of your baby is normal, common, and totally fine.  The sex disappointment is on the fringe, but still common enough to deserve empathy.

Some people want what they had; IE. If you had a sibling you may initially hope to emulate that relationship...  Or maybe you always wished you had a same sex sibling growing up so you want that for your child.   Some women feel more comfortable with the idea of puberty with a same sex child-when you also have periods they seem less scary than nocturnal emissions. Some people want to dress thier babies in cute (to them) outfits.  The vast majority are going to love their child no matter what.  It's okay to have a preferre. 

Also why are so many posters using "gender" for this discussion? I'm fairly certain sex is the more accurate term since we're talking about ultrasounds. 

My sister was a little disappointed that her second child was another boy. That lasted for maybe a few hours or a day before she got past it. By the time her son was born she was thrilled about having two boys and now she can’t even imagine life without either of them. I think most people who suffer disappointment likely experience it that way - a private disappointment that they move past before being genuinely thrilled. I think if someone experiences something more extreme than that then they should definitely consider speaking with a professional to help work through their feelings though. 

And yes, sex is the correct term when discussing someone’s anatomy. Unfortunately many people still use “gender” because sex also refers to intercourse and people get squeamish about that for some reason (at least here in the States.)

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

6 hours ago, PumaLover said:

 

In my experience it seems that girls are desperately wanted (moreso than boys if you only have girls). 

This is overall true in North America and not true in many other parts of the world. I just taught an Enviro Sci course with a unit on human population and I was surprised that Azerbaijan has a really skewed sex ratio, presumably due to sex-selective abortion.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/08/26/434616512/selecting-boys-over-girls-is-a-trend-in-more-and-more-countries

I remember reading somewhere that North Americans are often looking for a girl if they have a preference but now I can't find the article (it was like 10 years ago). Europeans prefer having one of each (I suspect this is common in North American too): https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol2/1/2-1.pdf

[Georgiana]

The reason I generally use "gender" as opposed to "sex" when talking about this issue is that I believe that at the heart, the preference is actually for the gender of the child as opposed to the sex.  When people say they want a boy or a girl, they aren't really saying "I want more vaginas in this house" or "I want a child with a Y chromosome".  What they're talking about is the social construct around the identity of the child: raising them a certain way, sharing certain gendered (as opposed to purely biological) experiences such as rites of passage, dressing them in certain clothes, feeling like they have permission to encourage certain gendered hobbies and activities, etc.  I don't see that as "sex" because it's not about the child's biology or anatomy.  It's all about the surrounding social constructs, and to me that's gender  And when a child self-identifies as a gender that differs from their biological sex, you do indeed hear open minded parents make comments like "I always wanted a daughter" or "It's great in a house full of girls to have a son", suggesting again that ultimately it's the gender that is the root of the parents' desire as opposed to the biological sex.  It's about sharing social experiences more than sharing anatomy.  It's just that children are generally assigned a gender identity at birth, and since we don't know their actual gender identity until they express it, most people default to using the biological sex as a presumption of what the gender of the child will be.  Yes, they are technically only finding out the sex, but they are using that to presume and assign gender, and that's where the preference is.

So it's more presumed gender disappointment than true gender disappointment, but I would argue that the core is gender over biological sex.  

I could totally be wrong, and I'd be very interested to hear other perspectives.  That's just why I chose the word I did.  

[feministxtian]

I had one girl and 2 boys. I would have gladly continued having children if I could have been guaranteed boys. My daughter was a drama queen and premier tantrum thrower. My boys were goofy, ridiculous, adventurous, had bad aim, smelled bad but were and are a helluva lot of fun. My daughter is rather aloof these days, off in her own little world. 

[Someone Out There]

9 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

This is overall true in North America and not true in many other parts of the world. I just taught an Enviro Sci course with a unit on human population and I was surprised that Azerbaijan has a really skewed sex ratio, presumably due to sex-selective abortion.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/08/26/434616512/selecting-boys-over-girls-is-a-trend-in-more-and-more-countries

I remember reading somewhere that North Americans are often looking for a girl if they have a preference but now I can't find the article (it was like 10 years ago). Europeans prefer having one of each (I suspect this is common in North American too): https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol2/1/2-1.pdf

It's also a significant problem in China and India.  China currently has a significant issue with partnering because of sex selection and the one child policy.  There is something like 30 million more men than women.  My understanding is that in China they are starting to value girls more now than they were in the past.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’ve never fit into any expected gender roles when I was growing up so maybe that’s why I didn’t really care if I had a boy or a girl. Because I just expect my kids to not fit into gender roles just like me!

But I guess they do like a lot of things that are seen as more masculine. They also like a few things that are seen as feminine. I just let them choose what they like and tell anyone who disagrees to fuck off. 

[Cheetah]

9 hours ago, Georgiana said:

The reason I generally use "gender" as opposed to "sex" when talking about this issue is that I believe that at the heart, the preference is actually for the gender of the child as opposed to the sex.  When people say they want a boy or a girl, they aren't really saying "I want more vaginas in this house" or "I want a child with a Y chromosome".  What they're talking about is the social construct around the identity of the child: raising them a certain way, sharing certain gendered (as opposed to purely biological) experiences such as rites of passage, dressing them in certain clothes, feeling like they have permission to encourage certain gendered hobbies and activities, etc.  I don't see that as "sex" because it's not about the child's biology or anatomy.  It's all about the surrounding social constructs, and to me that's gender  And when a child self-identifies as a gender that differs from their biological sex, you do indeed hear open minded parents make comments like "I always wanted a daughter" or "It's great in a house full of girls to have a son", suggesting again that ultimately it's the gender that is the root of the parents' desire as opposed to the biological sex.  It's about sharing social experiences more than sharing anatomy.  It's just that children are generally assigned a gender identity at birth, and since we don't know their actual gender identity until they express it, most people default to using the biological sex as a presumption of what the gender of the child will be.  Yes, they are technically only finding out the sex, but they are using that to presume and assign gender, and that's where the preference is.

So it's more presumed gender disappointment than true gender disappointment, but I would argue that the core is gender over biological sex.  

I could totally be wrong, and I'd be very interested to hear other perspectives.  That's just why I chose the word I did.  

I think the people who care the most about wanting boys or having girls are the people who would also be the most upset at having a trans kid, even if that kid ended up solving the issue that the parent had initially wanted say a son and thought they had gotten 2 daughters based on their kids' sexes.  (ie, that the kid was a trans boy/man). 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

3 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I had one girl and 2 boys. I would have gladly continued having children if I could have been guaranteed boys. My daughter was a drama queen and premier tantrum thrower. My boys were goofy, ridiculous, adventurous, had bad aim, smelled bad but were and are a helluva lot of fun. My daughter is rather aloof these days, off in her own little world. 

I hate this kind of sentiment. Two of the five of my siblings were tantrum throwers when we were little, one boy and one girl. This kind of characteristic is absolutely not determined by sex, it's just that the moody, dramatic kid you had happened to be your only girl. 

[feministxtian]

15 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

I hate this kind of sentiment. Two of the five of my siblings were tantrum throwers when we were little, one boy and one girl. This kind of characteristic is absolutely not determined by sex, it's just that the moody, dramatic kid you had happened to be your only girl. 

If you hate it, you hate it. I'd have much rather had a house full of boys. My granddaughters were/are little drama queens too. My grandson is a blast to hang out with. 

so...go ahead and hate it...IDK

[Melissa1977]

18 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

Europeans prefer having one of each (

I don't know the European statistics but everybody in Spain seem to prefer girls, mostly for the girly outfits but also hope that girls are better behaved, which is a false statement they soon discover! Very few people says that prefer a boy. And those who have a girl first, want to repeat girl with the second baby.

I have 2 boys and people around me were acting as if the youngest being another boy was a disaster. It was infuriating. If I had a third, I wouldn't mind to have another boy. Mine are really sweet and fun.

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

I have 2 boys and people around me were acting as if the youngest being another boy was a disaster. It was infuriating. If I had a third, I wouldn't mind to have another boy. Mine are really sweet and fun.

My sister had people saying that to her after her second son was born but after two miscarriages and a difficult pregnancy with my oldest nephew, she was just grateful for a healthy baby. When my niece's come up from England she enjoys doing the girly things with them but she has no desire to have another.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I don't know the European statistics but everybody in Spain seem to prefer girls, mostly for the girly outfits but also hope that girls are better behaved, which is a false statement they soon discover! Very few people says that prefer a boy. And those who have a girl first, want to repeat girl with the second baby.

I have 2 boys and people around me were acting as if the youngest being another boy was a disaster. It was infuriating. If I had a third, I wouldn't mind to have another boy. Mine are really sweet and fun.

I’m really sorry people were rude to you. I can understand having a personal preference for your own family, but I find it so incredibly odd and intrusive when people have such firm opinions about other people’s families. My sister’s MIL tried making a comment once about how their next kid would be a girl after their second son (and final child) was born last year and my sister shot that down so fast that I’m surprised her MIL didn’t get whiplash. My nephews are definitely more of a handful than my daughter is in a lot of ways - she’s calmer and more of a cuddler and isn’t a climber like they are - but that has more to do with their individual personalities than their anatomy. My nephews are wonderful little boys in their own special ways and their family is perfect the way it is. 

I’m excited to see what kind of kid our son is once he arrives. Our daughter has been really chill for the most part, so it’s going to be kind of hysterical if he’s the exact opposite. Definitely will end up being a huge adjustment no matter who he is or who he grows to be (if he even stays a “he”), but I’m getting more excited about having a second baby now that I know a bit more about who the stranger hitching a ride in my belly is.

(But oh my god - did anyone else have trouble picking names for their sons?! We had zero issues picking girl names or choosing a middle name for our son - it’s the first name shared by my FIL and BIL - but first names? It’s the worst. My husband doesn’t really know what names he likes, he just knows which ones he doesn’t like. ? I’ve suggested a longer version of my Grandfather's first name* because I like that one and it honors the five generation tradition of at least one male having a form of that name for my grandpa’s side, but husband is still thinking it over because he isn’t entirely sure.)

*Think Jameson for James or Jackson for Jack. Neither of those are the actual name, but it’s the general idea. The name I chose offers a ton of nickname options though, so our son would still have his own unique identity within our family that way.

[JermajestyDuggar]

My older son is my drama king. He can out drama any other girl his age. He’s also a fantastic little actor. I bet he will like being in plays in school when he gets older. He’s also got a great social IQ. He picks up on social cues better than many girls his age. I love that about him. He can make friends with almost anyone.

[eveandadam]

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I don't know the European statistics but everybody in Spain seem to prefer girls, mostly for the girly outfits but also hope that girls are better behaved, which is a false statement they soon discover! Very few people says that prefer a boy. And those who have a girl first, want to repeat girl with the second baby.

I have 2 boys and people around me were acting as if the youngest being another boy was a disaster. It was infuriating. If I had a third, I wouldn't mind to have another boy. Mine are really sweet and fun.

Germany too, most people with a higher degree want girls. We have friends (a couple) who had a girl first and were thrilled. When it turned out the second one will be boy, they were disappointed and said to us that they never pictured having a boy and that they don't know how to do it.

But for the general population the ideal is considered as one of each, and only two kids. If the first one is a boy, though, there is also the trend that no second kid is planned.

Edited June 15, 2019 by eveandadam

[theotherelise]

If a parent feels a child is too quiet, too emotional, too girly, not girly enough, too shy, too much of a ham, too talkative, or some other trait they don’t prefer, then the child will start feeling that way also. Maybe you will feel like they are aloof, but in reality they’ve just stopped trusting you with their real selves because they had enough with the rejection. 

Clear boundaries and instruction for how to act in certain situations and help learning how to feel and manage emotions is one thing. Discounting a child’s personality and repeatedly denouncing the way they express themselves is totally different.

We have five male and four female embryos in the freezer. I could not care less which one gets transferred, I just want it to finally work. That perspective is actually something I’m really grateful came out of the struggle!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Am I the only one who didn’t care at all what my kids were as long as they were healthy, happy, and safe?  

The concept of being dissapointed is so foreign to me.

and regarding other people - they’ll say shitty stuff no matter what.  I had a boy and a girl and lots of people who cheerfully concluded how lucky I was that we were “done now.”

wasnt done and my life wouldn’t be complete without my youngest son.  He’s not a spare boy - he’s a unique individual who happens to be male.

[OyToTheVey]

14 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

It's also a significant problem in China and India.  China currently has a significant issue with partnering because of sex selection and the one child policy.  There is something like 30 million more men than women.  My understanding is that in China they are starting to value girls more now than they were in the past.

There's a whole region right now along the Russian/ Chinese border that are seeing a great increase in Russian women and Chinese men marriages. The Chinese have traditionally aborted girls because of the one child policy so now there's a shortage of females. And in Russia because of all the wars and high rate of alcoholism, there's a huge void of men. I'm Russian, I've talked to a lot of people about this. So they decided to look for an outcome. There was a whole news thing about these new marriages. Like full villages. It's a biological advantage I guess to a difficult situation after generations of issues.

BTW the babies are so adorable. They're just the cutest thing. 

[nickelodeon]

IDK what it is about baby genitals that turns even the wokest, most feminist women into gender essentialists.