Trace Bates 1: The Flossing Fundie

[Palimpsest]

7 minutes ago, meee said:

Basically, did people ever not kiss until marriage, or did fundies make it up?

Fundies made it up and many evangelicals in the US bought into it.  It is Purity Culture bull crap.  It started in or around the 1980s.  

Here's Libby Anne on Purity Culture.  https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/the-purity-culture  Lots of useful links there.

And Rebecca Lemke.  http://rebeccalemke.com/2017/02/05/brief-history-modern-purity-culture/

And FTR the "You may now kiss the bride" thing (first kiss or not) is not universal in church weddings, although it is gaining ground in many denominations.  When I got married (CoE church) we did not have to kiss publicly at the altar.  It wasn't part of the service at all.

I don't think we even kissed in the vestry when we were signing the registry.  I can't remember.

[TatiFish9]

Great point. I think it comes from a time when marriage was arranged as a contract between families. I think, in modern history, sex before marriage had been a no-no but private affection was allowed within reason like say, a good night kiss. I have read western marriage traditions pre date Christianity.

[meee]

Well, and even sex before marriage was a thing, and everyone knew it even if they pretended it never happened. I once read that in Victorian-era "What to Expect" type books they'd write things like "First babies can come much earlier than nine months and still be healthy; but all subsequent babies come in nine months." I wish I could remember where I read that.

[TatiFish9]

@meee exactly! That is why scandal is a word in the dictionary. lol People always find a way around rigid rules and strict society expectations- even fundies.

[Syriana]

I grew up in a fairly strict Catholic family, no one batted an eyelid when my boyfriend  (now my husband) greeted me or said goodbye with a kiss.  There again, given my family's tendency to greet each other - and close friends - with a kiss on each cheek, some fundies would be apoplectic at the familiarity (and Steve Maxhell would be defrauded beyond all possible recovery) 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 hours ago, meee said:

I have a question. Not necessarily directed at you, anyone can chime in, but has this ever been a thing? I'm not a Christian and I've never been to a Christian wedding, but I'm sort of vaguely aware that at the end of the wedding the pastor says something like "I now pronounce you man and wife; you may kiss the bride" as though they really do save the first kiss for marriage? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

But I also remember that in the Little House books Laura gave Almanzo permission to kiss her once they were engaged, so maybe it wasn't a thing?

Basically, did people ever not kiss until marriage, or did fundies make it up?

Thanks!

I’ve always understood the “you may now kiss the bride” thing as meaning their first kiss as husband and wife.  Not first kiss ever.

im sure it exists in cultures outside of fundies - some arranged marriages, some people who meet their spouse the day of their wedding back in the day.  But it was never mainstream American culture to save first kiss until marriage.

[just_ordinary]

11 hours ago, meee said:

I have a question. Not necessarily directed at you, anyone can chime in, but has this ever been a thing? I'm not a Christian and I've never been to a Christian wedding, but I'm sort of vaguely aware that at the end of the wedding the pastor says something like "I now pronounce you man and wife; you may kiss the bride" as though they really do save the first kiss for marriage? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

But I also remember that in the Little House books Laura gave Almanzo permission to kiss her once they were engaged, so maybe it wasn't a thing?

Basically, did people ever not kiss until marriage, or did fundies make it up?

Thanks!

I am sure there are and have been people that didn’t kiss until marriage. And yes there have been similar standards for certain groups of society (but only ever small groups) BUT it was also an not so secret secret that those standards weren’t really followed by most. Those times are over and it was only a short amount of time anyway. And even arranged marriages were never the norm (at least in Europe) for the majority of people.*

So yes, Fundies follow an ideal that never was the norm or was truly lived. It’s mostly made up. 

And the kiss a pastor or priest refers to is the first kiss in holy matrimony (as in some countries people are already legally married before they have an additional church marriage). I think this aspect of weddings has become more prominent due to the film industry but it has been around for a long time. It’s not an necessary part of the wedding but it’s seen as a kind of seal on your wedding vows. 

*I do understand though why many people confuse some things as social norms/traditions. For the longest time the only literate and often visual sources of the past only show the powerful and rich. Just because they were the only ones that could afford it or were able/had time to read, craft solely for pleasure and paint. Real historians do a pretty good job in evaluating those sources together with archeological evidence to paint a more accurate picture. But they know that their interpretations are just that. Amateurs often confuse the absence of sources for the non existence of it. It’s the same with the myth that there was a time where the majority of women didn’t work but just were SAHMs. That is one of the reasons for my love-hate relationship with historical fiction/novels. It’s fun to read, many things are correct but (especially when written by real historians) many confuse the presented interpretation for the truth and don’t see how you could come to a very different interpretation from the same sources. That’s why I often cringe when people here discuss the Tudors and reference novels. But obviously reading several scientific treaties is not what most do and honestly even after that no one could claim to KNOW how those people really were. The past (same goes for present and future) and people are multi-layerd. And the interpretations of those facts change over time. Interpretations of the past today are different than 20 years ago because our lenses change. That’s normal and real scientists are aware of it.

[mollysmom]

When my ex-husband and I were courting...yes...courting (ugh) we weren't allowed to be in the same room alone (I was 24, he was 30) when he called me my mom had to listen in on every single conversation (landline phone, she'd be in her bedroom actually listening in on the other phone) When I would walk him to the door when he was leaving she was right there. It was so annoying. (which is why we ended up eloping in the middle of the night) but I'll never forget, one day he surprised me & showed up in the parking lot where I worked. He had gotten out of work early and wanted to see me. He tried to kiss me & I freaked out because I didn't know if my mom was hiding around the corner watching (seriously) I look back now and think man, that poor guy! He wasn't raised fundie like me! I have no idea how/why he put up with all that ridiculousness! I get mad just thinking about how overbearing my mother was especially in situations like that! 

 

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, mollysmom said:

When my ex-husband and I were courting...yes...courting (ugh) we weren't allowed to be in the same room alone (I was 24, he was 30) when he called me my mom had to listen in on every single conversation (landline phone, she'd be in her bedroom actually listening in on the other phone) When I would walk him to the door when he was leaving she was right there. It was so annoying. (which is why we ended up eloping in the middle of the night) but I'll never forget, one day he surprised me & showed up in the parking lot where I worked. He had gotten out of work early and wanted to see me. He tried to kiss me & I freaked out because I didn't know if my mom was hiding around the corner watching (seriously) I look back now and think man, that poor guy! He wasn't raised fundie like me! I have no idea how/why he put up with all that ridiculousness! I get mad just thinking about how overbearing my mother was especially in situations like that! 

 

I obviously don’t know either of you and I could be very wrong, but I would guess it’s because he thought being with you was worth the time and effort.  

[nausicaa]

As someone who likes to read older books, especially ones set between the 1890s and 1950s, no kissing until marriage is very much a modern Fundie invention. All the romantic couples kiss before marrying and there are mentions of courting couples being out in the garden "embracing," so it seems getting a bit handsy was considered acceptable as well, especially post WWI.

And everyone participated in group dances in which male and female partners grasped one another's hands, as well as sleigh/hay ride type stuff where young adults would have been packed together like sardines. So no-touch courtships would have been far outside the norm. 

Even in Emilie Loring books (which Lori Anderson would totally fan girl over if she actually read books because the 1950s church-going, peachy keen female protagonist always comes to her senses in the end and leaves her job to be a SAHW for the male hero), the couple embraces and kisses upon the heroine being saved at the end. 

One massive snag in the Fundie sweater vest is that they assume the rest of us are as ill-read as their peers, and don't understand that we can disprove many of their historical claims. (I actually don't care if a consenting adult chooses to make that their physical boundary before marriage, just don't claim you're being "traditional.")

49 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I obviously don’t know either of you and I could be very wrong, but I would guess it’s because he thought being with you was worth the time and effort.  

Reason #587 why I would fail terribly as a Fundie: I am fully aware that no dude would put up with that crap for me and thus I would be doomed to the life of Sarah Maxwell. 

I can barely get a guy to meet halfway for a first date. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by nausicaa

[Palimpsest]

8 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

For the longest time the only literate and often visual sources of the past only show the powerful and rich. Just because they were the only ones that could afford it or were able/had time to read, craft solely for pleasure and paint. Real historians do a pretty good job in evaluating those sources together with archeological evidence to paint a more accurate picture. But they know that their interpretations are just that. Amateurs often confuse the absence of sources for the non existence of it. It’s the same with the myth that there was a time where the majority of women didn’t work but just were SAHMs.

I'd say social history as a field of study wasn't much valued until the 1960s or so.  Even when I was doing history A Levels (when dinosaurs roamed the hills) in the early 1970s what we studied was mostly military and political history.  History written by the winners, who were invariably white and usually male.  We did get some relief and touched on social history in the Roman British section, where archeological finds like leather bikinis (worn by female athletes), pottery (I loved the pottery), and domestic appliances like hot water pipes heating villas, and the flushing loos on Hadrian's Wall got some attention.  

But women have always worked both inside and outside the home.  And throughout history babies have been born outside marriage.  And plenty of people did not save their first kiss for marriage.  All these things are frequently mentioned in European and American literature through the ages, from Chaucer through Shakespeare to Dickens, Flaubert, Tolstoy, and Hawthorne.   

The New Purity Culture is indeed a Fundy invention and a fringe belief system in the US.  

And a quick plug for Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's books on social history and women in Colonial America.  Martha Ballard, A Midwife's Tale would contradict most Fundie assumptions about courtship, marriage, and attitudes to single mothers.  So would The Age of Homespun: Objects and Stories in the Creation of an American Myth. and Good Wives: Image and Reality in the Lives of Women in Northern New England, 1650–1750.

I haven't read her book on Plural marriage yet but it is on my list.  She was raised Mormon.

“I was raised to be an industrious housewife and a self-sacrificing and charitable neighbor, but sometime in my thirties I discovered that writing about women’s work was a lot more fun than doing it.” Laurel Thatcher Ulrich; Well-Behaved Women Seldom Make History.

[lumpentheologie]

19 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'd say social history as a field of study wasn't much valued until the 1960s or so.  Even when I was doing history A Levels (when dinosaurs roamed the hills) in the early 1970s what we studied was mostly military and political history.  History written by the winners, who were invariably white and usually male.  We did get some relief and touched on social history in the Roman British section, where archeological finds like leather bikinis (worn by female athletes), pottery (I loved the pottery), and domestic appliances like hot water pipes heating villas, and the flushing loos on Hadrian's Wall got some attention.  

This is a great point, fundies have pretty much missed out on all the newer ways of doing history that became popular over the 20th century.  As someone currently finishing a PhD in history, I can report that social history was not really a done thing before the 1930s, when the Annales school in France put forth the idea that all classes of society mattered for history. (For anyone looking to read a lovely but super long classic of social history, I really recommend Fernand Braudel's The Mediterranean.)  It didn't enter mainstream academic history until after the Second World War, and it wasn't until probably the 80s that it really trickled down to non-academic circles.  Social history has often had a Marxist and somewhat anti-theological bent to it (as in asserting it's literally physical things and not theological destiny/divine Providence that causes historical change). Social history was really the first big historiographical turn, before that it was pretty much just political and military history. 

Interestingly (Western) history lagged behind (Western) literature by a bit in deciding that portraying the lives of common people was meaningful. (But it's pretty recent in both!)  It started happening seriously in literature in the 1880s with the rise of Naturalism--before that the idea that tragedy could be about anyone other than heroes/nobility was considered absurd.  Regular people were in comedy before that---they could be the butt of a joke---but their suffering wasn't considered meaningful or something an audience should identify with. 

[nokidsmom]

23 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Fundies made it up and many evangelicals in the US bought into it.  It is Purity Culture bull crap.  It started in or around the 1980s.  

Yep.  I went to an evangelical Christian (not fundie) college in the early 80s and there were no hangups about kissing before marriage.  Premarital sex was frowned upon but not kissing. 

It has come to my attention that purity culture has since taken over the campus, one student went to a meeting of the on-campus women's group to discuss women's issues.  She was ready for things like equal pay, career opportunities, work-life balance, etc. but the topics centered around purity and virginity.  

[nolongerIFBx]

On 6/26/2019 at 2:55 PM, meee said:

I have a question. Not necessarily directed at you, anyone can chime in, but has this ever been a thing? I'm not a Christian and I've never been to a Christian wedding, but I'm sort of vaguely aware that at the end of the wedding the pastor says something like "I now pronounce you man and wife; you may kiss the bride" as though they really do save the first kiss for marriage? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

But I also remember that in the Little House books Laura gave Almanzo permission to kiss her once they were engaged, so maybe it wasn't a thing?

Basically, did people ever not kiss until marriage, or did fundies make it up?

Thanks!

The "no touching before marriage" is based on 1 Corinthians 7:1- "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." The KJV and NASB are the only commonly used versions that translate this as not touching. All the other versions I've seen are more blunt,  "It is good to abstain from sexual relations." The problem there is that the verse doesn't give any disclaimer like "until you're 30" or "unless you are married" so if you're taking the verse that literally, there would be no fundie babies, LOL. CONTEXT is important and I think that the versions that translate the verse as, "Now about what you asked: "Is it advisable for a man not to marry?" are probably the most correct given what the rest of the chapter is about- Paul advising that people stay single unless they find that they cannot refrain from lust, thus the advice, "it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (so David Waller should have claimed this chapter and not forced himself to marry)

Now what idiot read just verse 1 and built a whole campaign around their misinterpretation, I don't know. Most likely somebody in the 1950s who was trying to get their 10 chapters a day read in a hurry and only one verse actually made it to their consciousness.

I did find this article interesting while I was trying to see when fundamentalism became a thing in the US. Earlier than I thought: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/the-four-phases-of-protestant-fundamentalism-in-america/ .

Edited June 27, 2019 by nolongerIFBx

[mollysmom]

I was thinking about this today while I was at work. My sister got married when she was 21 & I remember her calling my mom on her honeymoon crying because she wanted to make sure what he was "doing to her" was normal. I only know this because I heard my mom telling my aunt and they were giggling about it. We were just so unbelievably sheltered. My brother was home on break from college and heard my mom moaning (sorry...I know that's gross) and he walked into my parents room to make sure my mom was ok (he thought she was sick but they were having sex) People don't believe me when I tell them stuff like this (and frankly I don't blame them) but it's very real. This is how I was raised. Obviously I'm not saying this is how all fundies are raised but we certainly were. My parents did us no favors at all by keeping us that sheltered. 

[PurpleCats]

My good friend is Muslim, and in her mosque they are required to be legally married before they can have their wedding at the mosque.  She says it’s a pretty universal requirement in her sect/culture.  No one was hung up on the kissing (but they still hide the fact that they drink many years later 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

8 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

For anyone looking to read a lovely but super long classic of social history, I really recommend Fernand Braudel's The Mediterranean.)

I had to read it in college. It was like it would never end!

[Vinieartemis]

20 hours ago, PurpleCats said:

My good friend is Muslim, and in her mosque they are required to be legally married before they can have their wedding at the mosque.  She says it’s a pretty universal requirement in her sect/culture.  No one was hung up on the kissing (but they still hide the fact that they drink many years later 

In France it is mandatory to be legally married before having the religious wedding (At the end of our « legal wedding » at the city hall, the mayor gave us our wedding certificate to give to the priest - without it the priest wouldn’t have perform the religious wedding).

But I think this is because State and Churches are separated 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Vinieartemis

[just_ordinary]

8 hours ago, Vinieartemis said:

In France it is mandatory to be legally married before having the religious wedding (At the end of our « legal wedding » at the city hall, the mayor gave us our wedding certificate to give to the priest - without it the priest wouldn’t have perform the religious wedding).

But I think this is because State and Churches are separated 

It’s the same in Germany.

What really pisses me off are the discussions about gay marriage that we have from time to time in parliament. We are all equal in front of the law- so everyone should have the right to marry and every marriage should be treated equal. If churches don’t want to perform a religious service that’s shitty but up to them. 

And therefore I am not ok with having for example different tax rules for straight marriage and gay civil partnership. It’s basically the same thing. I believe it’s just semantics though. If we declare all legal marriages as „civil life partnerships“ and would use „marriage“ only for religious wedding ceremonies, maybe the traditionalist would finally vote for complete equality. 

[slp]

Just thinking of older fiction I've read.  Little House on the Prairie hS Laura and Almanzo spending unchaperoned hours together on buggy rides and sleigh rides, and as soon as they are engaged Laura gives him permission to kiss her

Nancy Drew novels have her kiss her boyfriend, spend unchaperoned time with him,etc, these were writteninthe 30s and 40s I think. 

The complicated rules etc are an invention of purity at all costs culture.

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by slp

[Syriana]

15 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

If we declare all legal marriages as „civil life partnerships“ and would use „marriage“ only for religious wedding ceremonies, maybe the traditionalist would finally vote for complete equality. 

Doing that would make a lot of people happy, as long as there was no way that churches etc could be forced to carry out religious ceremonies.  There are a lot of people who have no issue with equal tax/inheritance/pension rights etc, but chafe at the feeling that their places of worship are being pushed/bullied into violating their teachings (or that they may be).

The real traditionalists though?  Not.  A.  Chance.   They'll view it as gay marriage by another name, so they'll object purely because they don't see homosexual relationships as appropriate or valid. 

 

[QuiverDance]

On 6/27/2019 at 3:55 AM, mollysmom said:

When my ex-husband and I were courting...yes...courting (ugh) we weren't allowed to be in the same room alone (I was 24, he was 30) when he called me my mom had to listen in on every single conversation (landline phone, she'd be in her bedroom actually listening in on the other phone) When I would walk him to the door when he was leaving she was right there. It was so annoying. (which is why we ended up eloping in the middle of the night) but I'll never forget, one day he surprised me & showed up in the parking lot where I worked. He had gotten out of work early and wanted to see me. He tried to kiss me & I freaked out because I didn't know if my mom was hiding around the corner watching (seriously) I look back now and think man, that poor guy! He wasn't raised fundie like me! I have no idea how/why he put up with all that ridiculousness! I get mad just thinking about how overbearing my mother was especially in situations like that! 

 

I was just thinking about how bored I get when in occasionally check in on my 12 year old daughter’s texts. (She knows we monitor texts. It was part of her getting a phone... but I rarely do it because ?????) I can’t imagine how boring it’d be to listen to all her conversations. 

On 6/29/2019 at 10:22 AM, slp said:

Just thinking of older fiction I've read.  Little House on the Prairie hS Laura and Almanzo spending unchaperoned hours together on buggy rides and sleigh rides, and as soon as they are engaged Laura gives him permission to kiss her

Nancy Drew novels have her kiss her boyfriend, spend unchaperoned time with him,etc, these were writteninthe 30s and 40s I think. 

The complicated rules etc are an invention of purity at all costs culture.

 

Little House was pretty whitewashed so I’m guessing they actually kissed on those buggy rides. 

Tennessee recently passed a law (effective tomorrow) which makes marriage ceremonies officiated by internet ordained ministers (Universal Life Church) invalid. It’s clearly intended to make it harder for same sex couples to marry given that most clergy won’t marry them and after Obergefell judges and clerks are refusing to marry ANYONE so they won’t have to marry SSC. Of course this also affects ANY secular couple.  

[QuiverFullofBooks]

18 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Little House was pretty whitewashed so I’m guessing they actually kissed on those buggy rides. 

 Tennessee recently passed a law (effective tomorrow) which makes marriage ceremonies officiated by internet ordained ministers (Universal Life Church) invalid. It’s clearly intended to make it harder for same sex couples to marry given that most clergy won’t marry them and after Obergefell judges and clerks are refusing to marry ANYONE so they won’t have to marry SSC. Of course this also affects ANY secular couple.  

I think the book says that Laura and Almanzo kissed “in front of everyone” when they announced their engagement, strongly implying that there had been private kisses.

I hadn’t heard about the Tennessee thing, but a FB friend of mine who lives there posted about getting internet ordained the other day.

[Italiangirl]

Ok the Bates family ig there are severa photos of the family with Chaney at Chuck E Cheese (seems to be like a game place?) Seems that only the little are missing I saw up to the middle boy's, there are With and Zach, Tori and Bobby, Chad and Erin plus Kelly Jo I don't think I saw Gil but it could have been him to shoot the photos.

At this point I will aspect an official courtship announce at the premier of the new season later this summer

[rebeccawriter01]

On 7/1/2019 at 5:42 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think the book says that Laura and Almanzo kissed “in front of everyone” when they announced their engagement, strongly implying that there had been private kisses.

I hadn’t heard about the Tennessee thing, but a FB friend of mine who lives there posted about getting internet ordained the other day.

The scene has Laura saying to Almanzo that he may kiss her now when they arrive at her parents' home. They are alone but the family is inside. Given how many marriages of that time period were hardly romantic and more of a business arrangement, I don't know how hot and heavy they would have gotten. 

Laura Ingalls Wilder wrote the books with children in mind as the audience. So I think she probably took some liberties in terms of their relationship in the books.