Trace Bates 1: The Flossing Fundie

[TatiFish9]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:00 AM, Kelsey said:

Trace and Cheney are officially special friends per The Bates Family Blog 

Omg. So many labels. lol Is special friends the status before dourting or is it a segment of one of the dourting phases?

I know Carlin and Josie used boyfriend for this time period of their relationships. I wonder if Trace is going the traditional route afterall. Maybe they'll be "special friends" until they court.?

[rebeccawriter01]

43 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Omg. So many labels. lol Is special friends the status before dourting or is it a segment of one of the dourting phases?

I know Carlin and Josie used boyfriend for this time period of their relationships. I wonder if Trace is going the traditional route afterall. Maybe they'll be "special friends" until they court.?

For them it is the period before they court. Kelly Jo and Gil used it to describe Josie/Kelton and Carlin/Evan before the official courtship proposal. However, I think that the girls used the boyfriend title, as they were in school and hanging out with other people outside their family. It would be weird to introduce someone as your special friend.  

I know that the couples "direct their own rules," but Gil and Kelly Jo certainly influence the girls' decisions on that. When Josie and Kelton were skating before they went to the bridge for him to ask her to court, Gil was having palpitations that they were holding hands. We've never really seen them with a son in a courtship other than the brief Nathan and Ashley thing (Zach married between the TLC show and the UP show). One would think that the girlfriend's family would be more involved in the decisions based on their beliefs, but I don't know that Gil and Kelly Jo are that open to sharing the spotlight. 

[nausicaa]

If everyone and their denim-frumper clad mother understands that "special friends" is just dating, and the girls are even using the "boyfriend" label, I have zero understanding of why the courting stage still needs to exist. 

Unless it's just an extra opportunity for the more outgoing among them to have another photo opportunity?

[rebeccawriter01]

1 minute ago, nausicaa said:

If everyone and their denim-frumper clad mother understands that "special friends" is just dating, and the girls are even using the "boyfriend" label, I have zero understanding of why the courting stage still needs to exist. 

Unless it's just an extra opportunity for the more outgoing among them to have another photo opportunity?

It is probably just semantics at this point, but the courting phase is the more committed dating phase to them. The special friends phase is more the time where they are praying and listening to God/their parents about if this is the right person. Essentially, that's when Gil and Kelly Jo appraise if the guy is someone they can control or get something out of for themselves. 

[19tacos&counting]

I think special friend is before the courtship phase. More like “talking” to the normal world lol but everything is under a microscope for them. I think the boyfriend/girlfriend stage would be courting. And engagement of course is the same. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

It is probably just semantics at this point, but the courting phase is the more committed dating phase to them. The special friends phase is more the time where they are praying and listening to God/their parents about if this is the right person. Essentially, that's when Gil and Kelly Jo appraise if the guy is someone they can control or get something out of for themselves. 

So courting is like “engaged to be engaged?”

Is this how people who don’t gave sex amuse themselves in relationships?  Navigating each stage like video game levels?

[LittleOwl]

@HerNameIsBuffy That was the best thing I have read today. 

[VelociRapture]

17 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So courting is like “engaged to be engaged?”

Is this how people who don’t gave sex amuse themselves in relationships?  Navigating each stage like video game levels?

Do you have to defeat a Dungeon boss to advance to the next level? And, if so, what would the Bosses be? Would it be the parents over and over again? Or would it be stuff like “TEMPTED TO KISS AND RESISTED - LEVEL UP TO MARRIAGE!”?

[just_ordinary]

3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

If everyone and their denim-frumper clad mother understands that "special friends" is just dating, and the girls are even using the "boyfriend" label, I have zero understanding of why the courting stage still needs to exist. 

Unless it's just an extra opportunity for the more outgoing among them to have another photo opportunity?

But- how would they get a ridiculous over the top courtship proposal if there wasn’t a courtship stage? After all- how would they know that they are in a worthy, pure and Christian relationship if there hasn’t been a treasure hunt, a self composed song, tons of photos and their families lurking from afar? And how could they prove how holier than us they are?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

But- how would they get a ridiculous over the top courtship proposal if there wasn’t a courtship stage? After all- how would they know that they are in a worthy, pure and Christian relationship if there hasn’t been a treasure hunt, a self composed song, tons of photos and their families lurking from afar? And how could they prove how holier than us they are?

As great as all that sounds I’d still prefer the privacy to get to know someone ...and sex.

 

[nickelodeon]

43 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

But- how would they get a ridiculous over the top courtship proposal if there wasn’t a courtship stage? After all- how would they know that they are in a worthy, pure and Christian relationship if there hasn’t been a treasure hunt, a self composed song, tons of photos and their families lurking from afar? And how could they prove how holier than us they are?

And then get ready to do it allll over again for the marriage proposal two months later!

[rebeccawriter01]

1 hour ago, nickelodeon said:

And then get ready to do it allll over again for the marriage proposal two months later!

That's all practice for the big wedding and string of "gender" reveal parties. 

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So courting is like “engaged to be engaged?”

Is this how people who don’t gave sex amuse themselves in relationships?  Navigating each stage like video game levels?

Pretty much. Each stage requires another level of permission from the parents to move on to the next one. Zach wasn't kidding with Kelton and Josie when he suggested they just tell Gil that they felt God was leading them to go ahead and get engaged five seconds after their courtship officially began. 

That was the secret passcode to advance. 

[TatiFish9]

Would it be too hard for them to let their kids go from dating to engagement? Especially since with the Bates, there really doesn't seem to be any steps up from their pre courtship phase. Carlin and Josie were holding hands and taking lots and lots of cuddly photos before announcing courtship. Cut the middle man out, Gilly Jo. It's time.

 

7 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

That's all practice for the big wedding and string of "gender" reveal parties. 

Pretty much. Each stage requires another level of permission from the parents to move on to the next one. Zach wasn't kidding with Kelton and Josie when he suggested they just tell Gil that they felt God was leading them to go ahead and get engaged five seconds after their courtship officially began. 

That was the secret passcode to advance. 

Speculation, but I think this is pretty much what happened. The engagement ask scene between those four was heavily edited. Hard to know how things really went down, but it seemed like if Gil and Kelly would have had it their way, Josie and Kelton would wait just a little longer. However, Kelton reminded them they wanted the parents to be a part of their decison [but]...

Seems like they would have gone forward regardless. Josie was of age, graduated from her trade classes and working. There really wasn't much that could hold them back except parental consent.

Edited June 25, 2019 by TatiFish9

[Lgirlrocks]

I understand it’s all about control, parents controlling kids, but it makes no sense to me to have these steps. I don’t get why they don’t just group date or let their kids (adult kids) hang out with opposite sex kids (adults) in a group setting as friends. Seems it would keep they awkward stages at bay: see Zach bates failed courtship and the Bontrager boys before courting. 

I think the courtship proposals are over the top because they are on tv. The Duggar’s haven’t had any real crazy or over the top ones. Honestly if a guy was going to ask me out and did something over the top I would expect something even more over the top for a marriage proposal. *dont think I would want over the top for either because I’m not that person but I didn’t grow up like they did. 

[TatiFish9]

@Lgirlrocks

I absolutely agree. Tori, Carlin and Josie went to Knoxville chaperoneless. Amongst the million of things Carlin was able to get away with (including the wedding day nightie robe in front of several males) she and Evan went on an un chaperoned bike ride before their engagement  moment. The Bates are already there. They need to admit their views on courtship have changed. Lawson and Gen2B have been defrauding it up and doing everything but...

It's a joke at this point. Would be interesting to see if Trace goes the more traditional route we have seen of his older siblings.

[lumpentheologie]

19 hours ago, 19tacos&counting said:

I think special friend is before the courtship phase. More like “talking” to the normal world lol but everything is under a microscope for them. I think the boyfriend/girlfriend stage would be courting. And engagement of course is the same. 

Interesting, I've only ever seen "talking" as a pre-dating phase on the conservative Christian internet---is it a thing in secular culture as well?  Among the people I know, pre-dating is usually called "seeing", but that definitely implies you're having sex before officially becoming a couple (the expected progression in my circles). 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

Interesting, I've only ever seen "talking" as a pre-dating phase on the conservative Christian internet---is it a thing in secular culture as well?  Among the people I know, pre-dating is usually called "seeing", but that definitely implies you're having sex before officially becoming a couple (the expected progression in my circles). 

It was back in the day at my boarding school ...talking was a precursor to “going out.”  

But that was its own weird subculture.

[Syriana]

I'd put the 'special friends' stage as being equivalent to dating, with courtship being the deeper and more serious exploration of the relationship and whether it's heading towards marriage.  I don't have much patience with the whole 'asking permission to court' nonsense though, the transition from less formal 'dating' to an established relationship (courting) is more organic than that.  Don't get me started on OTT gender reveals...ugh!

 

[just_ordinary]

Don’t forget- they cannot ditch the courtship. The concept of courtship is hyper important. It’s one of the three selling points that set them apart.

1. A huge flock of children 

2. A family where everyone loves everyone dearly

3. An unusual approach to dating/relationships.

Being Christian, even very conservative and being very open about it isn’t unusual in the US from what I gather here. 

Dressing modern modest basically means dressing like most of the rest.

Women loving to be a SAHM isn’t not unusual. 

Of course if you dig deeper you find all the dirt and the lies but on the surface that is what they sell and how many perceive them. Has no one seen the many comments on their blog/fan blog where young women ask for advice to make their parents support and chaperone them in courtship. It’s crazy. I had to stop visiting the blogs. Courtship is getting highly glorified even outside their cultish circles. Those three points together with their good looks make the show. I think the whole skirt rule is not interesting anymore.

[19tacos&counting]

I’m 31, but we used to say “talking” if you were talking (lol) to a guy but not the official boyfriend/girlfriend title. Very early stages, possibly just texting, veryyy casual hanging out, not even to the one on one date settings. 

“Talking” to someone, would be a slight step for before “seeing” someone, to me. Personally I don’t know if I would use that term. I can’t picture myself saying “oh yeah I’m seeing him.”

Seeing someone and could be similar to early dating. You might say I’m dating joe, but not ready to call joe your boyfriend. It’s not a serious relationship. Dating could also mean super serious, living together, moments from getting engaged. Dating could mean 100 different stages to different people.

I would say it goes 

talking

seeing/ maybe Dating

dating/ boyfriend/girlfriend 

engaged 

married

 

[AussieKrissy]

12 hours ago, 19tacos&counting said:

I’m 31, but we used to say “talking” if you were talking (lol) to a guy but not the official boyfriend/girlfriend title. Very early stages, possibly just texting, veryyy casual hanging out, not even to the one on one date settings. 

“Talking” to someone, would be a slight step for before “seeing” someone, to me. Personally I don’t know if I would use that term. I can’t picture myself saying “oh yeah I’m seeing him.”

Seeing someone and could be similar to early dating. You might say I’m dating joe, but not ready to call joe your boyfriend. It’s not a serious relationship. Dating could also mean super serious, living together, moments from getting engaged. Dating could mean 100 different stages to different people.

I would say it goes 

talking

seeing/ maybe Dating

dating/ boyfriend/girlfriend 

engaged 

married

 

I think there also needs to be one more sub stage for 'normal' non fundies 

called shacked up 
an off shoot between dating and engaged which is living together in sin lol not dating anymore but not engaged yet/if ever

dating to me still implies living individual  lives and getting together for dates.

never gunna happen in fundie land 

[llucie]

You can see Chaney next to Trace in the last photo thabatesfamily posted on insta at the american football match.

[TatiFish9]

On 6/25/2019 at 10:05 AM, just_ordinary said:

Don’t forget- they cannot ditch the courtship. The concept of courtship is hyper important. It’s one of the three selling points that set them apart.

1. A huge flock of children 

2. A family where everyone loves everyone dearly

3. An unusual approach to dating/relationships.

Being Christian, even very conservative and being very open about it isn’t unusual in the US from what I gather here. 

Dressing modern modest basically means dressing like most of the rest.

Women loving to be a SAHM isn’t not unusual. 

Of course if you dig deeper you find all the dirt and the lies but on the surface that is what they sell and how many perceive them. Has no one seen the many comments on their blog/fan blog where young women ask for advice to make their parents support and chaperone them in courtship. It’s crazy. I had to stop visiting the blogs. Courtship is getting highly glorified even outside their cultish circles. Those three points together with their good looks make the show. I think the whole skirt rule is not interesting anymore.

You are so right. Even conservative Christians (and many fundie groups - with restriction) are allowed to smooch. This strange courtship where they save their first kiss for marriage is quite bizarre, but alluring to those who feel dating standards have gotten out of hand. But are these Bates kids really courting anymore with their new "all but ..." approach?

I personally think it's a farce. It kinda reminds me of that whole off the grid/minimalist/tiny house phase that was going around a few years ago. Several of the bloggers had to finally reveal they stopped or it was becoming more expensive to live that way than normal.

Bates needs to admit they have made changes in dating and why. To me it's an integrity thing. 

ETA: That perfect family stuff is a crock of bull. This is totally speculation, but I think half of them can't stand Erin. Also, they have their cliques. How can you not in a large group? And Josie seems to detest mostly everything about their way of living. She comes off extremely snobby on Lives. Not saying this to hate on her personality. Just stating what I see. I also know there is some level of competition amongst the older boys especially with Lawson taking their paths and making it his own all the while no one steps on his musical toes. Smh.

I wish they would be real about their family conflict -Duggars included. If they focused on fixing the problem, BUB would still be an UP friendly family show.

Edited June 26, 2019 by TatiFish9

[sparrow]

1 hour ago, llucie said:

You can see Chaney next to Trace in the last photo thabatesfamily posted on insta at the american football match.

I can’t imagine the pressure of being a girlfriend and trying to measure up to Kelly Jo’s level of fandom. Maybe I’m just much more subdued, I feel like just being there ought to be enough. If my potential MIL was jumping up and down waving her arms and shouting this and that all game long, I think I’d find that exhausting.  And also feel insufficient by comparison. Trace’s team name of Mama’s Boys also caused me to wonder if Trace enjoys/expects that level of dedication. I just would not be able to bring myself to accommodate.

Haha... now I’m having mental images of Chaney and Kelly Jo engaged in a cheer battle over which of the two of them is Trace’s biggest fan. 

[meee]

5 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

You are so right. Even conservative Christians (and many fundie groups - with restriction) are allowed to smooch. This strange courtship where they save their first kiss for marriage is quite bizarre, but alluring to those who feel dating standards have gotten out of hand. But are these Bates kids really courting anymore with their new "all but ..." approach?

I personally think it's a farce. It kinda reminds me of that whole off the grid/minimalist/tiny house phase that was going around a few years ago. Several of the bloggers had to finally reveal they stopped or it was becoming more expensive to live that way than normal.

Bates needs to admit they have made changes in dating and why. To me it's an integrity thing. 

ETA: That perfect family stuff is a crock of bull. This is totally speculation, but I think half of them can't stand Erin. Also, they have their cliques. How can you not in a large group? And Josie seems to detest mostly everything about their way of living. She comes off extremely snobby on Lives. Not saying this to hate on her personality. Just stating what I see. I also know there is some level of competition amongst the older boys especially with Lawson taking their paths and making it his own all the while no one steps on his musical toes. Smh.

I wish they would be real about their family conflict -Duggars included. If they focused on fixing the problem, BUB would still be an UP friendly family show.

I have a question. Not necessarily directed at you, anyone can chime in, but has this ever been a thing? I'm not a Christian and I've never been to a Christian wedding, but I'm sort of vaguely aware that at the end of the wedding the pastor says something like "I now pronounce you man and wife; you may kiss the bride" as though they really do save the first kiss for marriage? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

But I also remember that in the Little House books Laura gave Almanzo permission to kiss her once they were engaged, so maybe it wasn't a thing?

Basically, did people ever not kiss until marriage, or did fundies make it up?

Thanks!