Ask an Ex Fundie (VF style)

[Hane]

10 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

When I graduated from high school, I and all the other girls in the class received a coupon for a miniature Hope chest from the local Lane Furniture retailer. I chucked it in disdain. Looking back, I wish I’d gone ahead and redeemed it, because at this point the thing is probably a collectors item.

My classmates and I all got that same coupon! I never got around to cashing it in; it would have been a great place to store stud earrings.

[nickelodeon]

In your experience with other ex-VF people, have you noticed any trends with regard to who deconverts and when? Is it mostly younger people (single 20-somethings a la Chris Pennington, Cynthia Jeub, etc)? Do people who went through the VF courtship -Epistemologically Self Conscious Wedding - homebirth cycle usually stay fundamentalist, or do we see them stepping back?

[refugee]

On 7/28/2019 at 1:32 PM, Palimpsest said:

Oh, there is a whole Fundie subset of Fake Jews out there.  We call them that because they are not Messianic Jews -- Jewish people who believe Christ is the Messiah like Jews for Jesus.  No these are super-special Christian Fundies, with little or no Jewish heritage, who think appropriating Jewish customs and holidays make them better Christians.  They have Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, celebrate Passover with Seders, and so on.

Sometimes they are funny as well as offensive in their cherry picking.  They buy a special brand of matzo because the markings on it reminds them of Christ's wounds.  One family wears tallits all the time.  And one young lady sewed fringe on her skirts because she said it was tzitzit.  And I will never forget the ones who posted their recipe for cheese burger soup as the perfect seder meal.  I just wish I could remember their name.

But I would bet that DPIAT encourages it at 13 because he is proud of his Jewish heritage in a way.  Of course, Doug was raised Christian because Howard Phillips converted before he was born.  Still, I remember Dougie cavorting around Israel, singing snatches of Fiddler on the Roof, and spouting Christian Zionism.  Do you remember anything about that @Monstrous Black Sheep?

I have to admit that I quite miss VF for the endless snark  The Titanic Parties, the Hazardous Journeys, the revisionist history conferences, and the wide stances ...

o god this pushes my buttons. There’s a whole congregation of “messianic christians” in the local area. Some appear to be sweet and sincere, but the ones we know personally are smug and sincere. I would completely cut them out of my life if I could. (Long story.) Toxic people. I feel sorry for their kids. Most if not all of whom will probably grow up to be toxic people.

[Four is Enough]

22 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

When I graduated from high school, I and all the other girls in the class received a coupon for a miniature Hope chest from the local Lane Furniture retailer. I chucked it in disdain. Looking back, I wish I’d gone ahead and redeemed it, because at this point the thing is probably a collectors item.

I still have mine! It makes a lovely jewelry box! I have all my costume jewelry that I wear to Dark Shadows conventions in it!!

I also bought a full sized Lane cedar chest. It now contains all my childhood and young adult keepsakes... it once held blankets.

[EmmaWoodhouse]

A fundie acquaintance in my circle had an entire hope room.  According to rumor, she had furniture, appliances, etc.  Her whole life centered around "waiting for my prince."  I sometimes wonder where she is now.

[ConfessionsOfABotkinite]

On 4/21/2019 at 6:33 PM, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

I probably can't give as much insight as someone who was an adult in the VF circles, but there was definitely a classist thing going on with Doug. I mentioned the story about the exclusive "conference" they put on for their highest paying customers and donors, after which they invited the attendees to their house.

I always suspected that the man Doug took for a walk and kept aside that entire evening was a wealthy man or someone of some kind of influence that Doug wanted something from. I have no way of knowing that, though.

It was pretty well established that if you didn't have something that Doug wanted, he'd overlook you or dismiss you as soon as he could. I met him one or two times but he always barely acknowledged me before moving on. That's the treatment he gave most people.
 

I'm not sure if the same mentality was common in other VF/patriarchy leaders. The Browns, Bradricks, and Botkins were always kind to me and my family (although the Botkins are NOTORIOUSLY hard to get ahold of. If you don't talk to them in person, there's very little chance you'll talk to them at all, in my family's experience).

Our family was in that "1st tier" group... I remember the donor cruise that all "big" donors went on at the Titanic conference in Branson, and the big house party when Stephanie Cone gave him an early edition of the South book  about Ernest Shackleton and the Endurance. My parents donated money towards that book (it was about $5000!!) so we could join the party after the Food and Family conference. Pretty much everyone that was at both events was big in the ideology that Doug and his minions preached and taught.

We didn't go to the 200 year plan conference though... what year was that? We really started to get into those circles around Jamestown. We met the Botkins around that time in 2007-2008. 

 

[RosyDaisy]

When I graduated from high school, I and all the other girls in the class received a coupon for a miniature Hope chest from the local Lane Furniture retailer. I chucked it in disdain. Looking back, I wish I’d gone ahead and redeemed it, because at this point the thing is probably a collectors item.

I still have mine. I keep my grandfather's pocket watch in it.

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

4 hours ago, ConfessionsOfABotkinite said:

Our family was in that "1st tier" group... I remember the donor cruise that all "big" donors went on at the Titanic conference in Branson, and the big house party when Stephanie Cone gave him an early edition of the South book  about Ernest Shackleton and the Endurance. My parents donated money towards that book (it was about $5000!!) so we could join the party after the Food and Family conference. Pretty much everyone that was at both events was big in the ideology that Doug and his minions preached and taught.

We didn't go to the 200 year plan conference though... what year was that? We really started to get into those circles around Jamestown. We met the Botkins around that time in 2007-2008. 

 

The 200 Year Plan was in 2008 or 2009, I believe. We also began entering VF circles around the Jamestown period.

The amount of white-history idolization going on just boggles my mind now that I'm becoming aware.

[wallysmommy]

What??? A Dark Shadows convention!!! Who have you met? This was my favorite after school show in the 60s and 70s.

What??? A Dark Shadows convention!!! Who have you met? This was my favorite after school show in the 60s and 70s.

[Four is Enough]

9 hours ago, wallysmommy said:

What??? A Dark Shadows convention!!! Who have you met? This was my favorite after school show in the 60s and 70s.

What??? A Dark Shadows convention!!! Who have you met? This was my favorite after school show in the 60s and 70s.

David Selby, (Quentin) Lara Parker, (Angelique), Jerry...... , (Trask) ........ (Barnabas' sister), (Willie Loomis) (Millicent, ) Sorry, my scrapbook isn't handy but I have LOADS of pictures with me and some of the stars... and my sister, too.. Kathryn Leigh Scott, (Josette, Maggie Evans)  there are more but I"m completely blanking....I found the conventions AFTER Frid had died, as well as (Ben Stokes), (Elizabeth) (Roger).... but there have been fascinating stories told by the sound and light people, including how they had over 200 sounds (duh duh DUH!!) on vinyl that they had to cue up for just the right second....

And the stories from the attendees have been worth sitting around listening to as well.. There are usually costume shows.. not competitions, just parades..

Not to mention the late night viewings of "Night of Dark Shadows" and "House of Dark Shadows" which were filmed at the  Lyndhurst Mansion in Tarrytown, New York... a place WELL worth visiting!! 

Oh, and Lara Parker likes to sew, so she and I have that in common...

[wallysmommy]

For all of our fundi-lite Church of God days, my parents didn't care that we were watching paranormal shows with witches, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, time travel, etc.  I remember going to the corner store and buying trading cards.  I was an 8-year-old in love with David Selby!

[SilverBeach]

23 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I also bought a full sized Lane cedar chest.

Me too, nothing to do with marriage aspirations. I liked how it looked at the foot of the bed, it stored things (protected them too because cedar lining), and was a convienient place to sit to put on shoes or whatever.

Edited August 1, 2019 by SilverBeach

[nokidsmom]

18 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Me too, nothing to do with marriage aspirations. I liked how it looked at the foot of the bed, it stored things (protected them too because cedar lining), andwas a convienient place to sit to put on shoes or whatever.

I did not have a cedar chest but my "Hopeless Chest" was a box containing things for when I moved out, whether getting married or not. 

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

The 200 Year Plan was in 2008 or 2009, I believe. We also began entering VF circles around the Jamestown period.

The amount of white-history idolization going on just boggles my mind now that I'm becoming aware.

The 200 Year Plan Conference was indeed in 2008.  You too can still buy the audio.  

https://www.amazon.com/200-Year-Plan-Multi-Generational-Faithfulness/dp/1933431474

But Botkin was yapping about a 200 Year Plan for a long time before that.  He was developing the "Multigenerational Faithfulness" breeding for Jebus plan to take over the world as early as the 1990s and lecturing in the US about it as early as 2006.  It was only when Botkin hooked up with VF that his ideas became widely disseminated.

Quote

There’s a man of God today promoting a certain message of multi-generational faithfulness. He is the father of five sons and two daughters. This man’s name is Geoffrey Botkin. Geoff Botkin has not always been a prime example of a Christian father. In fact, he is a former Marxist. However, you could not tell that today based on his commitment to Christ and his resolve to lead his family according to Christian principles.

Mr. Botkin spoke at our church when we were attending Sovereign Grace Family Church in Carrollton, Texas. He also spoke at the Vision Forum Entrepreneurial Bootcamp in August 2006. In his messages, Mr. Botkin has outlined a “200-year” plan for his family. In this plan, he records family history, and plans out the future. Then he charges his sons to produce their own plans beginning at their marriage dates. Of course, these plans will overlap greatly. Yet, each plan will be unique as new families are formed, and the vision is passed to the next generation.

I have begun my own plan.

http://blog.mikesoutherland.com/2006/12/thatll-never-work-lets-just-see-about.html

And that poor sucker also attended a Sovereign Grace Ministries church.  

[VVV]

1 hour ago, wallysmommy said:

For all of our fundi-lite Church of God days, my parents didn't care that we were watching paranormal shows with witches, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, time travel, etc.  I remember going to the corner store and buying trading cards.  I was an 8-year-old in love with David Selby!

That is so funny to me. My devout but not fundie parents did not want us watching Dark Shadows. They had no problem with Bewitched or I Dream of Jeannie, however.

[Marmion]

2 hours ago, wallysmommy said:

For all of our fundi-lite Church of God days, my parents didn't care that we were watching paranormal shows with witches, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, time travel, etc.  I remember going to the corner store and buying trading cards.  I was an 8-year-old in love with David Selby!

Would that be COG , Anderson , Ind.  ?  My parents are Church of God background , although we largely attended the Church of the Nazarene , which considers the Church of God to be a " sister church "  . I remembered when I was young , as far as cartoons go ,  I wasn't allowed to watch The Smurfs  , or Gummi Bears  , but I was allowed to get away with watching The Wizard of Oz  , for example . So standards , and enforcement , was rather arbitrary .  As I understand it , they , along with other fundamentalists , especially of a Pentecostal and /or Holiness affiliation , were influenced in this regard by " Turmoil in the Toy Box "  .   

 

[wallysmommy]

No, it would be Church of God, Cleveland, TN.  The particular church we attended went non-denominational around 1975 after a split with the state officials over putting the church's new property in the organization name and not the local church.  The church (I haven't attended in almost 40 years) is now a mega church in New Orleans.  There's a lot of Hollywood-esque entertainment in that church now.  Far from the fundie days.

[Pecansforeveryone]

There's a lot of Hollywood-esque entertainment in fundie light churches these days. It's kind of crazy. It really is a rock concert complete with light shows and everything. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

On 7/30/2019 at 12:57 PM, MamaJunebug said:

When I graduated from high school, I and all the other girls in the class received a coupon for a miniature Hope chest from the local Lane Furniture retailer. I chucked it in disdain. Looking back, I wish I’d gone ahead and redeemed it, because at this point the thing is probably a collectors item.

I redeemed my coupon, back in 1988. I still have...something? in it. (It's buried under other things and I can't remember the last time I opened it.) We got a coupon for another one when my husband and I got married in 1999. My husband asked if I minded if he got that mini chest, since I already had one. His sister got one when she graduated high school, but guys didn't get the freebie, so he didn't get one.

I still wouldn't mind getting a full-sized cedar chest someday. They're a great place to store special things and keep them safe from moths, etc. My mom has a cedar chest she got in her youth, but she's never called it a hope chest. Then again, my mom helped work her way through college to get a teaching degree. And when she went back to teaching after her youngest kid started (public) school full time, she went back to get a master's degree. (Didn't quite get the master's, but all the graduate work meant she got paid at the same level as a teacher with a master's degree.)

5 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I did not have a cedar chest but my "Hopeless Chest" was a box containing things for when I moved out, whether getting married or not. 

By the time I moved out at almost 22, I had multiple boxes squirreled away in my parents' guest room closet, garage, and so on. I didn't have much in the way of furniture, but I had plenty of dishes, towels, sheets, etc. No hand crocheted doilies, but some Corelle, Pyrex, Corning Ware, and far too many tea mugs.

Edited August 1, 2019 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
tried to fix poor sentence

[Granwych]

5 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I did not have a cedar chest but my "Hopeless Chest" was a box containing things for when I moved out, whether getting married or not. 

In my high school we called them our "despair barrels."

Edited August 1, 2019 by Granwych
Stupid autocorrect

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I still wouldn't mind getting a full-sized cedar chest someday. They're a great place to store special things and keep them safe from moths, etc.

Hey, you can find them at thrift and vintage stores very cheaply  We have 3 cedar (or hope) chests, believe it or not.  But we also have very limited closet space in this old house and like old things.

I have a 1930s Lane cedar chest (I bought it at a yard sale circa 1986) in our master bedroom.   We have my Catholic MIL's 1940s hope chest in our guest (spare) room.  They look nice at the end of the beds. The ones in the bedrooms store out of season and spare linens.  I appreciate them.

And we have Mr. P's grandma's massive honking great cedar hope chest in our family room.  It is a monster about 4.5' W, 3' D and about 2.8 ' H.   It  contains my dead tree file boxes, and 4'  fake Xmas tree, plus ornaments, these days.  Mr. P's Catholic grandma used it to store her wedding china (long gone) away from her 13 (possibly 14) kids and it pre-dates her.  It is 1880s German in origin.

But no-one else in the family wanted to give the historic monster hope chest house room.  I might have to pay someone to take it away  

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Hey, you can find them at thrift and vintage stores very cheaply  We have 3 cedar (or hope) chests, believe it or not.  But we also have very limited closet space in this old house and like old things.

Thank you! I'll remember that if and when we have enough room someday.   

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Yes miniature Lane Hope Chests are now collector's items, as usually inside they were stamped with "Compliments of XXXXX Furniture Store."

My hope chest was several boxes of things I collected for my future apt.  Marriage didn't enter into the equation. 

When I moved into that first place my daddy gave me a set of screwdrivers (flat head and Phillips all sizes); set of hammers (claw, tack and ball peen); a level; a selection of nails, tacks, screws, washers, nuts and bolts: yardstick and retractable tape measure; small saw; mitre box; file and chisel; several grades of sandpaper; a set of wrenches and a tool box to keep it all.  He'd taught me how to use every item he stocked in the tool box.  Best "hope chest" gift ever.

[smittykins]

17 hours ago, Marmion said:

Would that be COG , Anderson , Ind.  ?  My parents are Church of God background , although we largely attended the Church of the Nazarene , which considers the Church of God to be a " sister church "  . I remembered when I was young , as far as cartoons go ,  I wasn't allowed to watch The Smurfs  , or Gummi Bears  , but I was allowed to get away with watching The Wizard of Oz  , for example . So standards , and enforcement , was rather arbitrary .  As I understand it , they , along with other fundamentalists , especially of a Pentecostal and /or Holiness affiliation , were influenced in this regard by " Turmoil in the Toy Box "  .   

 

My old fundie-lite church had this book in the library. 

[Leftitinmysnood]

My mom had a full-sized Lane Hope Chest. Not sure where it ended up. She kept childhood keepsakes in it. I remember HopeChest magazine, too, which helpfully told us it was ok to use a drawer if our parents couldn't afford a hope chest. The girls in our church were big on hope chests, making doilies and dish towels for them. I didn't plan one, since I was going to college and not planning to marry right away. I still got dishes for my high school graduation gift.