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Monstrous Black Sheep

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Welcome Monstrous, I'm glad you made your escape! Vision Forum and the Botkins were the two main sources of insane patriarchal fundie-dom that I followed and I'm excited to have someone here who can let us see behind the scenes just a bit.

Forgive me if this is too personal, but one of my main fascinations is the stories we've heard about the classism that was expressed within the world of VF, and that if you weren't wealthy the Phillips and the Botkins generally regarded you as peasants who shouldn't approach their betters. Was this something that you saw or experienced in any way? 

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1 hour ago, milkteeth said:

Forgive me if this is too personal, but one of my main fascinations is the stories we've heard about the classism that was expressed within the world of VF, and that if you weren't wealthy the Phillips and the Botkins generally regarded you as peasants who shouldn't approach their betters. Was this something that you saw or experienced in any way?  

I probably can't give as much insight as someone who was an adult in the VF circles, but there was definitely a classist thing going on with Doug. I mentioned the story about the exclusive "conference" they put on for their highest paying customers and donors, after which they invited the attendees to their house.


I always suspected that the man Doug took for a walk and kept aside that entire evening was a wealthy man or someone of some kind of influence that Doug wanted something from. I have no way of knowing that, though.

It was pretty well established that if you didn't have something that Doug wanted, he'd overlook you or dismiss you as soon as he could. I met him one or two times but he always barely acknowledged me before moving on. That's the treatment he gave most people.
 

I'm not sure if the same mentality was common in other VF/patriarchy leaders. The Browns, Bradricks, and Botkins were always kind to me and my family (although the Botkins are NOTORIOUSLY hard to get ahold of. If you don't talk to them in person, there's very little chance you'll talk to them at all, in my family's experience).

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I only met Beall once, and that was at her house after the 200 Year Plan conference. My mom and I went up to her and when I introduced myself, she repeated my name ponderously and gazed down at me for a moment. I was in a sort of awe and half expected her to lay her hand on my head and pronounce some kind of blessing.

(She didn't; she said some hostess things and then moved on to other guests)

Another thing I remember happening that evening was Joshua Phillips and a few other boys wrestling in the sheltered front yard (almost a glen with all the trees and landscaping. Beall was cheering them on, and yelling "If any of you boys want to join in, we have extra teeshirts and shorts in the house!"

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Ahhh manly wrestling in the yard. Just about what I would expect from the insanely wide stance crew. Speaking of the wide stance, did DP just stand around with that wide stance or was it saved for special occasions? 

Edited by JermajestyDuggar
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Welcome! As someone who has always been completely removed from that type of life, I really appreciate the insights, both into VF and the process of escaping patriarchy.

Do you have anyone you're close to who also left the fundie life - siblings, other family, friends? I'm curious as to there is any kind of former fundie network to help those getting out of that lifestyle.

And a silly question: did the VF men actually use the Wide Stance in everyday life??

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On 4/19/2019 at 4:16 PM, BachelorToTheRapture said:

What has been the biggest surprise/hardest adjustment for you in the outside world?

Is there a part of you that misses the sureness that you had the truth and were doing what's right? I was basically fundie catholic and sometimes I miss the feelings I had when I was probably 13 and under that I was going to go to heaven and had happiness waiting for me and knew exactly what was right. 

Me too. With the catholic upbringing and feeling "safe" in that environment.  The head pats I would receive for being a good little Catholic.  One time a nun pointed me out to her class at mass. Apparently,  my posture and praying hands were just perfect while I was going up to receive holy communion.  I was so proud, as was my grandmother.  How ridiculous.  

Thank you @Monstrous Black Sheep for sharing!  Also, I never was held back from bikinis.  As I got older, in my 20's, I didn't like to wear them publicly.  I'd put on board shorts or a coverup. I just felt like I was in my undies and it made me uncomfortable.  I'd  wear one piece'rs sometimes as they felt weird on my body, pulled on my shoulders.  So, you may or may not like them and that's ok too!  

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I love the advent of tankinis! I hate one piece swimsuits, they are too long, too short, must undress to go to the bathroom, make me look like I have long butt, etc. I wore bikinis but have since had 3 children and don't feel comfortable in them so I love tankinis. I have 2 pieces for ease of bathroom use but feel supported and comfortable. Now that I am allergic to the sun (boo hiss!) I wear a short swim skirt with a bikini top under a board shirt. As long as my legs are in the water the sun doesn't bother them. I still prefer a bikini because I hate the way all the wet fabric clings to my skin and then takes 10 days to dry. I would prefer to wear less, towel off and then cover-up to my comfort level. 

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I was shamed into not showing too much skin by my family members when I got into my teen years. I also was overweight and had terrible self esteem. So I would never wear a bikini in public for a very long time. I sill have a lot of body shame so I will very rarely be seen in public in a swim suit with swim shorts. Maybe I will get there one day. I really hate avoiding public pools because of my insecurities. Since I do enjoy swimming. 

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12 hours ago, Eponine said:

Welcome! As someone who has always been completely removed from that type of life, I really appreciate the insights, both into VF and the process of escaping patriarchy.

Do you have anyone you're close to who also left the fundie life - siblings, other family, friends? I'm curious as to there is any kind of former fundie network to help those getting out of that lifestyle.

And a silly question: did the VF men actually use the Wide Stance in everyday life??

I had/have quite a few close friends and acquaintances who have left patriarchy. I've also lost a lot of friends and acquaintances who didn't leave (or didn't leave as far as I have). But I have a pretty wide circle I'm constantly adding to of people who have also seen the light and rejected patriarchy. It's so therapeutic. It's mostly in private messages, but there are a few secret and closed FB groups that we congregate in.

We also like to connect through writing on blogs. It's therapeutic to talk through our trauma and our belief system as we work through everything.

I'm not aware of any formal network unless you're talking something like Homeschoolers Anonymous, which I'm only vaguely familiar with.

The Wide Stance was pretty standard, yes. It was seen as Masculine; the more macho a guy was, the more of a Godly Biblical Man he was. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to be a gentle, softer personality as a guy in those circles.

 

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13 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

The Wide Stance was pretty standard, yes. It was seen as Masculine; the more macho a guy was, the more of a Godly Biblical Man he was. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to be a gentle, softer personality as a guy in those circles.


Thank you for pointing that out! While obviously bad for women, patriarchy  harms men, too. Unfortunately there are very few men (that I know of) around here. Do you know some guys in your circle of ex-fundies? What is their perspective on marriage, often at a young age? How do they feel about fathering to a lot of kids and being expected to feed all of them on a single income?

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13 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to be a gentle, softer personality as a guy in those circles.

Horrible, from what we saw. Fathers trying to toughen up their kinder, gentler sons were downright abusive.

And the tough, aggressive “manly” boys with muscular builds and anger issues won lots of praise for their manliness from the VF crowd in our former church.

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2 minutes ago, refugee said:

Horrible, from what we saw. Fathers trying to toughen up their kinder, gentler sons were downright abusive.

And the tough, aggressive “manly” boys with muscular builds and anger issues won lots of praise for their manliness from the VF crowd in our former church.

I guess we can say that’s a pretty big difference between the ATI crowd and the VF crowd. Although we know they sometimes overlapped. From what I’ve read about the ATI gothardite crowd, they push men to not be “quick to anger.” When they asked the single Duggar girls about what they want in a man, they said they didn’t want a man quick to anger. Gothard seemed to want all negative emotions (sadness, anger, bitterness) to be completely squelched no matter if they were male or female. And it sounds like VF was ok with males showing appropriately placed anger and aggression. I’m also assuming the females were not allowed to ever show any aggressiveness or anger. Men like David Waller are much more accepted in ATI than VF from what I’m reading here. 

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You seem to have a lot of perspective on your life story, after inly a few years “out”.

How long ago was it that you were resolute in your feelings that this wasn’t for you, that you would be leaving, and that you were no longer of their world (even though you had not left yet)?

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On 4/29/2019 at 7:41 PM, snarkykitty said:

You seem to have a lot of perspective on your life story, after inly a few years “out”.

How long ago was it that you were resolute in your feelings that this wasn’t for you, that you would be leaving, and that you were no longer of their world (even though you had not left yet)?

It depends on what we're talking about. I was still pretty deep in patriarchy when I first started daydreaming about inching my way out of my parents' house, knowing that it would take years of cautious negotiations, planning, and probably a ton of drama with church discipline and fractioned relationships.

The daydreams were vague and 'maybe someday." But something inside of me knew that there was more to life than cleaning my parents' house and babysitting their children.


Something in me always knew I was "weird." Even when I was fully sold on patriarchy, when my mom handed me books like Maidens of Virtue and Joyfully at Home, something in me burned with anger and rebellion when I read them. I thought it was something wrong with me. I wasn't 'content' enough, I wasn't 'godly' enough. I wasn't good enough. I resented the syrupy sweet, 'joyful' daughters who seemed to embrace their life and were always perfect.

When I was 21 and thinking about going across the country for a couple weeks to visit friends, I was told that I wouldn't get approval to do things like that until I was "content." If I wasn't content at home I'd never be content anywhere, they said.

So the short answer is that it's come in stages. I'm still deconstructing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Monstrous Black Sheep Thank you for sharing. Are there any things you wish non-fundies understood about fundies, or any general assumptions you read about on places like FJ that you wish to dispel?

I ask because my views have evolved a lot since my more conservative evangelical upbringing, but in conversation with progressive family/friends I still find myself pushing back against some of the assumptions voiced about people who come from a similarly conservative background. 

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/20/2019 at 3:33 PM, DefraudedByPlaid said:

@Monstrous Black Sheep Thank you for sharing. Are there any things you wish non-fundies understood about fundies, or any general assumptions you read about on places like FJ that you wish to dispel?

I ask because my views have evolved a lot since my more conservative evangelical upbringing, but in conversation with progressive family/friends I still find myself pushing back against some of the assumptions voiced about people who come from a similarly conservative background. 

Those are GREAT questions.

I think a lot of non-fundies see fundy families as black and white. For instance, believing that the father is always tyrannical (that's why they're patriarchal, right?) -- this is not true. It may be OFTEN true, but it certainly wasn't in my family. For me, the perpetrators of trauma and spiritual abused were leaders like Doug Phillips and other Vision Forum teachers, not my parents or my church (church was never of much consequence to me, although we attended).

I'm still figuring out how to be objected with everything, though. It's a long road out.

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oh my GOSH you guys I JUST REMEMBERED

At some point at the end of the 200 Year Plan conference put on by Vision Forum (an invite-only conference, extended to VF's biggest donors and customers), there was a 'manhood ceremony" for Lucas Botkin who was about to turn 13. (13th birthdays were huge deals in Vision Forum circles). There was exhortations and long flowery speeches by Geoff (and probably Doug and possibly other Botkins). There was a sword involved, as Geoff "knighted" Noah. Poor kid.

I remember all the kids kind of treating Noah with gloved fingers at the after-party that night at the Phillips' house.

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41 minutes ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

oh my GOSH you guys I JUST REMEMBERED

At some point at the end of the 200 Year Plan conference put on by Vision Forum (an invite-only conference, extended to VF's biggest donors and customers), there was a 'manhood ceremony" for Lucas Botkin who was about to turn 13. (13th birthdays were huge deals in Vision Forum circles). There was exhortations and long flowery speeches by Geoff (and probably Doug and possibly other Botkins). There was a sword involved, as Geoff "knighted" Noah. Poor kid.

I remember all the kids kind of treating Noah with gloved fingers at the after-party that night at the Phillips' house.

So like a Bar Mitzvah  ?  And , on another note , historically knightings did not take place until 21 years of age .  https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/knight2.htm  

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50 minutes ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

oh my GOSH you guys I JUST REMEMBERED

At some point at the end of the 200 Year Plan conference put on by Vision Forum (an invite-only conference, extended to VF's biggest donors and customers), there was a 'manhood ceremony" for Lucas Botkin who was about to turn 13. (13th birthdays were huge deals in Vision Forum circles). There was exhortations and long flowery speeches by Geoff (and probably Doug and possibly other Botkins). There was a sword involved, as Geoff "knighted" Noah. Poor kid.

I remember all the kids kind of treating Noah with gloved fingers at the after-party that night at the Phillips' house.

Vision Forum was just so fundie extra. They couldn’t do anything small. 

Edited by JermajestyDuggar
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There's no way they'd call it a bar mitzvah, but yeah basically. They were "commissioning" the "next generation" of "men" to "take the mantle" and "press on in victory", etc etc

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19 minutes ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

There's no way they'd call it a bar mitzvah, but yeah basically. They were "commissioning" the "next generation" of "men" to "take the mantle" and "press on in victory", etc etc

Just after I posted that , I looked up " evangelical Bar Mitzvah " , just to see what results I might find , and sure enough I found out that it does exist , it's called a Bar Barakah .  

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Oh, there is a whole Fundie subset of Fake Jews out there.  We call them that because they are not Messianic Jews -- Jewish people who believe Christ is the Messiah like Jews for Jesus.  No these are super-special Christian Fundies, with little or no Jewish heritage, who think appropriating Jewish customs and holidays make them better Christians.  They have Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, celebrate Passover with Seders, and so on.

Sometimes they are funny as well as offensive in their cherry picking.  They buy a special brand of matzo because the markings on it reminds them of Christ's wounds.  One family wears tallits all the time.  And one young lady sewed fringe on her skirts because she said it was tzitzit.  And I will never forget the ones who posted their recipe for cheese burger soup as the perfect seder meal.  I just wish I could remember their name.

2 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

There's no way they'd call it a bar mitzvah, but yeah basically. They were "commissioning" the "next generation" of "men" to "take the mantle" and "press on in victory", etc etc

But I would bet that DPIAT encourages it at 13 because he is proud of his Jewish heritage in a way.  Of course, Doug was raised Christian because Howard Phillips converted before he was born.  Still, I remember Dougie cavorting around Israel, singing snatches of Fiddler on the Roof, and spouting Christian Zionism.  Do you remember anything about that @Monstrous Black Sheep?

I have to admit that I quite miss VF for the endless snark  The Titanic Parties, the Hazardous Journeys, the revisionist history conferences, and the wide stances ...

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@Palimpsest,  isn't tzitzit something that men and boys do?  

I've got a dear friend who is a Modern Orthodox woman.  She covers her hair and dresses modestly, but there sure as hell ain't no fringes on her clothes!

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3 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@Palimpsest,  isn't tzitzit something that men and boys do?  

I've got a dear friend who is a Modern Orthodox woman.  She covers her hair and dresses modestly, but there sure as hell ain't no fringes on her clothes!

It's not unusual to see women and girls donning tallitot during services in Conservative and Reform synagogues.

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