JinJer 48: California Love

[Lurky]

4 hours ago, J.O.Y.nomore said:

That is awful! I dated a fundie guy for a while. The following story was one of my light bulb moments, which led to breaking up with him: My gay uncle, his partner, and my cousin were coming in town for Christmas. I'd met my boyfriend's family and I wanted him to meet mine! Knowing we had some differing beliefs already, I told him about my uncles. He said, he'd meet them, but he wouldn't shake hands with them. Furthermore, he didn't think, in good conscious, he could refrain from (eventually) telling them his views about their sexuality. I left very upset.

My partner was dragged to a barbeque at her sister's church, and was studiously ignored by most of the people, as her sister had told them she was gay.  She went to talk to her brother in law, and was introduced to a guy, and as she held out her hand to shake, he refused, saying he'd heard all about her, and he basically ignored her.  Everything about the BBQ was super awkward and unpleasant, and reminded her of her teenage fundy church experiences... but the best part?  It came out later that unpleasant man had been having an affair with her sister!  So typical of her sister's small minded, judgemental, nasty version of Christianity.

ETA I'm sure those kind of Christians who refuse even to shake hands with a gay person would describe themselves as "love the sinner, hate the sin", and feel smug in their righteousness, but it's really unpleasant to be on the receiving end of that, and does absolutely nothing to advance their cause.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Lurky

[Italiangirl]

I don't get it, why refuse to shake hands? Are they worry the being gay is like flu? If you touch someone who has it you could catch it too? 

I could understand in some way feeling weird/uncomfortable at the start or don't support a different way of living...But here it ends. I mean is not my buisness how someone decidedto live her/his life until they don't try to tell me they I'M on the wrong side 

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Italiangirl

[PennySycamore]

@Italiangirl,  part of it may be related to the panic that many felt about AIDS back in the early and mid '80s.  Some people were afraid of any contact with someone who had AIDS, many of whom in the US, at least, were gay men.  True, we did not know how AIDS spread at first, but that doesn't explain everything.  A good bit of the panic was just plain old homophobia writ large.  It reminds me a bit how whites would not touch blacks in the bad old days for fear they'd be contaminated some how.   

 

[Iamtheway]

I see it as a tiny, tiny positive that Felicity and any future Vuolo kids will have family that is not as fundie as their parents. Non fundie uncles and aunts hasn’t made a difference for the Duggar kids but Jeremy still seems reasonably close to his brother. I don’t think Charles will change Jeremy in any way but hopefully he can be a positive role model for the Vuolo kids.  

Edited April 14, 2019 by Iamtheway

[Jigsaw3]

5 hours ago, lexiloumarie said:

Leaving, yes - where I live most that leave end up in "liberal" Mennonite or brethren groups where the culture is similar enough. But I haven't seen large numbers, not around me anyway. Usually one or two a generation. It's been like that for a long, long time though. And some have kids who go back in.

Might be different in that area, we still have a decent enough farm/small trade culture. The new marriage practices seem to be helping as well. 

New marriage practices? I'm interested!  Tell me more!

I went to college in a Mennonite area that had the whole spectrum of religious practice, from horse-and-buggy through to black-car-and-headcoverings to modern-social-justice Mennonites. Many of my modern Mennonite friends had grandparents or other relatives who were more traditional and everyone stayed super friendly.  My guess is it made it much more possible for people to adjust their beliefs and practice when others had done the same before them.

[BernRul]

53 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

I see it as a tiny, tiny positive that Felicity and any future Vuolo kids will have family that is not as fundie as their parents. Non fundie uncles and aunts hasn’t made a difference for the Duggar kids but Jeremy still seems reasonably close to his brother. I don’t think Charles will change Jeremy in any way but hopefully he can be a positive role model for the Vuolo kids.  

Yeah, same. I also don't think it's impossible for Jinger--or any Duggar kid--to leave fundieland. Just because they haven't done it yet doesn't mean they never will. These things don't happen over night.  Ultimately it comes down to what they want, and how they grow as people. 

I also don't think that Jeremy really has convictions. He might think he does, but he strikes me as the kind of person who cares more about making himself look good and intellectual. Being transphobic and anti-feminist is what's popular in fundie circles, so he embraces it. If, for whatever reason, he thought it would make him look good to change those beliefs, he would. He's all about appearance. I could be wrong, of course, but that's the way he rubs me. 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

It reminds me a bit how whites would not touch blacks in the bad old days for fear they'd be contaminated some how.   

Some whites...many were happy to rape and sexually abuse black women.

[lexiloumarie]

2 hours ago, Jigsaw3 said:

New marriage practices? I'm interested!  Tell me more!

I went to college in a Mennonite area that had the whole spectrum of religious practice, from horse-and-buggy through to black-car-and-headcoverings to modern-social-justice Mennonites. Many of my modern Mennonite friends had grandparents or other relatives who were more traditional and everyone stayed super friendly.  My guess is it made it much more possible for people to adjust their beliefs and practice when others had done the same before them.

My area is fairly similar, it's amazing that variety of practice - our neighbors are Mennonite but horse and buggy. The Amish up the road have a car and truck. I'm close to a bigish town so it's always funny to see the Mennonite or Amish teen girls in flip flops wearing makeup but the dress and bonnet. 

In my area, at least how I've understood it from the neighbors, is that the kids are now being encouraged to marry outside of certain districts depending on where they're from - farther than they go by normal buggy travel. So now they rent big  vans and take the teens for socials a certain number of miles away. I know we've exchanged a few with the Lancaster churches - one opened a delicious Cafe and coffee shop. 

A lot has been done here to combat the genetic components of the inbreeding. Certain districts of the churches take it better than others. In this sect, theyve been having better birth rates and growth - opened new schools and expanded so the idea has gotten more ground than expected. It reminds me a lot of what has been done in Orthodox Jewish communities, which is an area I'm admittedly more familiar with. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I saw an Amish or Mennonite (how do you tell them apart?) woman using a cell phone the other day. Is that normal?

[PennySycamore]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Some whites...many were happy to rape and sexually abuse black women.

Sadly that's all too true, @SilverBeach.  I have to admit that I was thinking of the old custom where if the cashier was black and the customer were white (or vice versa) , the money would be put on the counter to be picked up by the cashier.  Never would their hands touch.  

[lexiloumarie]

8 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I saw an Amish or Mennonite (how do you tell them apart?) woman using a cell phone the other day. Is that normal?

Yes, very normal from my experiences. I've seen all but the strictest using them more and more. Not sure how they're getting around that one but they seem to have gotten addicted too. 

Where I live sometimes there is a difference and sometimes not so I don't have an easy answer - someone else might know better. Most of the Amish woman I know do not where pattern to their dresses, and most older women wear an apron at all times ,u sually black.  Mennonites and brethern wear patterns. Amish men have the beards, Mennonite men do not for some churches. There is something with buggies (grey vs black and styles) but I have no clue. I usually tell in my area by which one room school the kids go to. 

[Snowless]

59 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I saw an Amish or Mennonite (how do you tell them apart?) woman using a cell phone the other day. Is that normal?

The three biggest differences between even the most conservative branches of either the Amish or the Mennonites are: 1. The Mennonites aren’t as quick to shun people who break church rules (and a huge reason why Jakob Ammann broke away from the Mennonites and formed the Amish, which is named after him), 2. Mennonites are more accepting of modern technologies and the outside world and use phones and electricity in the home (but, depending on the group one is in, still live plain lives and/or dress plainly), and also allow members to pursue higher education, and 3. Mennonites tend to worship in meetinghouses or churches, whereas Amish prefer to worship in members’ homes.

This might help to explain some of the differences.

[fluffernutter]

2 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I saw an Amish or Mennonite (how do you tell them apart?) woman using a cell phone the other day. Is that normal?

We live around the Amish and my husband did Uber a few years ago for some extra cash. He found he made the most money with the Amish, because they would be traveling from the country into the more busy areas to shop and eat out. And they definitely did use cell phones. 

[Syriana]

How do you know when you've gone too far down the rabbit warren? 

You get a tiny bit excited when you see a fundie with a Bible that isn't the KJV - Jeremy has an ESV Bible

 

 

Someone send the rescue ferrets...please.

 

[J.O.Y.nomore]

17 hours ago, Lurky said:

My partner was dragged to a barbeque at her sister's church, and was studiously ignored by most of the people, as her sister had told them she was gay.  She went to talk to her brother in law, and was introduced to a guy, and as she held out her hand to shake, he refused, saying he'd heard all about her, and he basically ignored her.  Everything about the BBQ was super awkward and unpleasant, and reminded her of her teenage fundy church experiences... but the best part?  It came out later that unpleasant man had been having an affair with her sister!  So typical of her sister's small minded, judgemental, nasty version of Christianity.

ETA I'm sure those kind of Christians who refuse even to shake hands with a gay person would describe themselves as "love the sinner, hate the sin", and feel smug in their righteousness, but it's really unpleasant to be on the receiving end of that, and does absolutely nothing to advance their cause.

I don't understand people like that. I didn't understand my ex's reaction at the time. what type of person refuses to shake hands?! Apparently, more than just him. I'm sorry she went through that. WOW, sounds like a great guy. That reminds me, my ex stayed friends with someone who had an affair and then got divorced. He admitted he was hypocritical. Wouldn't "loving the sinner" mean treating the person with respect? I agree it does nothing to advance their cause. If anything, I think it damages their cause. Why would anyone listen to their opinion after they were rude?

Edited April 15, 2019 by J.O.Y.nomore

[HereticHick]

17 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

I don't get it, why refuse to shake hands? Are they worry the being gay is like flu? If you touch someone who has it you could catch it too? 

 

For different reasons, ultra-Orthodox Jews and Muslims don't shake hands with the non-related opposite sex.  Cooties, you know

[Knight of Ni]

I was reading about Ibtihaj Muhammad, the Olympic fencer who is Muslim. She was almost not allowed to compete on the National and international circuit because she had to shake hands with male referees and would be traveling without a male guardian. 

[Satan'sFortress]

3 hours ago, Syriana said:

How do you know when you've gone too far down the rabbit warren? 

You get a tiny bit excited when you see a fundie with a Bible that isn't the KJV - Jeremy has an ESV Bible

 

 

Someone send the rescue ferrets...please.

 

I just can't even.  I am an atheist, but grew up fairly strict Catholic.  So, yes, I know there is a lot to hate in Catholicism (see previous sentence in which I state that I am an atheist), but one thing I still admire is the rejection of wealth (at least in theory).  I will never understand the idea that God materially rewards the faithful. The thought that Jeremy would buy a custom designed Bible with a special inscription is anathema to me.  That money could have been spent to feed the hungry, buy clothing for the naked, etc (Matthew 25:35).  

On a side note, it is interesting how much my Catholic upbringing still stays with me despite not having been to church for the last 32 years.

[Italiangirl]

2 hours ago, HereticHick said:

For different reasons, ultra-Orthodox Jews and Muslims don't shake hands with the non-related opposite sex.  Cooties, you know

I could see why someone would claim that they can't shake hands with opposite sex...nevermind actually i can't sorry, what is the danger? You could get too intimate? You could list some desire that could not righteously fullfield? I tried by all this is beyond my capacity to understand (how do you cross the line when you want to fix a tough?) 

[CarrotCake]

I wonder... if one of them is drowning or falling of a cliff and someone from the other sex is offering a hand to help, can they take it? 

Or even when they fall during roller skating, like Kendra in her date with Joe.

[socalrules]

14 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

I wonder... if one of them is drowning or falling of a cliff and someone from the other sex is offering a hand to help, can they take it? 

Or even when they fall during roller skating, like Kendra in her date with Joe.

I think they can justify anything as long as it benefits them and their narrative. It’s not much different than their twisting the Bible to fit their agenda. They aren’t always black and white when gray offers them more benefits. 

[JordynDarby5]

17 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I think they can justify anything as long as it benefits them and their narrative. It’s not much different than their twisting the Bible to fit their agenda. They aren’t always black and white when gray offers them more benefits. 

I agree. The Bible actually does say a few things about people with money and its always negative. So does Jesus. And yet somehow they are never mentioned by the Duggars, Buy me a fourth plane preachers and other like minded Christians. Somehow despite claiming to know all about the Bible, God and etc. those passages never get brought up, and never mentioned. Probably the same reason they never mention the beware the false prophet.  

[QuiverFullofBooks]

4 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I just can't even.  I am an atheist, but grew up fairly strict Catholic.  So, yes, I know there is a lot to hate in Catholicism (see previous sentence in which I state that I am an atheist), but one thing I still admire is the rejection of wealth (at least in theory).  I will never understand the idea that God materially rewards the faithful. The thought that Jeremy would buy a custom designed Bible with a special inscription is anathema to me.  That money could have been spent to feed the hungry, buy clothing for the naked, etc (Matthew 25:35).  

On a side note, it is interesting how much my Catholic upbringing still stays with me despite not having been to church for the last 32 years.

I’m fine with the relatively small amount of money, but the pretentiousness of the inscription and especially the Instagram post really annoys me.

[mollysmom]

The fundie college I went to, males and females were not allowed to touch at all. Not at all. Not even a handshake. Even if they were related (their theory on that was that others don't know that you're related and the Bible says to abstain from the appearance of evil) so yeah, honestly, even if you were walking with a guy and you started to slip and fall on the ice, they stood there and let you fall. They were not allowed to touch you at all! (All this while the pastor is now sitting in prison for having sex with a teenage girl. Go figure)  

[MarbleRainbow]

11 hours ago, Syriana said:

How do you know when you've gone too far down the rabbit warren? 

You get a tiny bit excited when you see a fundie with a Bible that isn't the KJV - Jeremy has an ESV Bible

 

 

Someone send the rescue ferrets...please.

 

I recently discovered that the ESV is an explicitly complementarian translation. The translation committee (all men) deliberately chose to make sure that it supports the complementarian view. It's the new trendy version in the fundiegelical circles in my area, so I'm not surprised that's what Jeremy uses.