American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[libgirl2]

18 hours ago, Briefly said:

@Don'tlikekoolaid I am expecting it to show up in my feed, courtesy of a couple of people in Mr. Briefly's side of the family.  Both of which I may be unfriending because of their constant trump brownnosing. hem.

I have unfollowed many because of this but not yet unfriending as they are family. 

[Pammy]

I just had a conversation with someone who has done work with missionary organizations in the same general area of the world. She shared that her group would have liked to have conducted a language survey (an early step towards bible translation) of the N Sentinal people, and that she was familiar with the barriers against contact. She said that plans like this one were very much part of the brainstorming process, but that they were not considered good plans.

Her group is considered responsible and respectful, so I was surprised to hear that such plans were even brainstormed. I think it speaks to that foundational idea (held even by reasonable people) that Christianity’s alleged benefits are so important that genuine risks seem ‘worth it’ in their eyes.

Things like smuggling Bibles, starting underground churches, and doing Bible translation under the umbrella of ‘literacy work’ — are all considered (by evangelicalism in general) legitimate ways to fight government oppression in counties where religious freedom is curtailed by law. It becomes easy to connect those things with other ignore-the-law activities. I’m wondering how to explain the difference to ‘insiders’.

[Black Aliss]

On 11/29/2018 at 2:50 AM, DangerNoodle said:

And many people who are "rabidly anti-gay" are gay. So points towards the suicide by tribe theory. 

One of my first thoughts was that there was "sin in his heart" of one kind or another and the only way he thought he could atone for the sin that would not go away was to become a martyr.

[zee_four]

22 hours ago, DarkAnts said:

I think the thread title should be changed to “tribal members defend themselves against a so called missionary”.

If 'Stand Your Ground' are laws all over the states that conservatives worship, shouldn't they be supporting that here?

Oh right, brown people cant kill to defend themselves, only whites, and they are allowed to kill for loud music or when they commit the crime (breaking and entering)

Thabk go the "missionary" wasnt white or we would have the MAGA mob demanding WWIIII.

[Lisafer]

3 hours ago, CaricatureQualities said:

I feel sorry for this guy insofar as I think he was a total victim of brainwashing from his faith community. I believe he was totally sincere in his belief that he was doing the right thing....so much so that he was willing to lose not only his own life but also sacrifice the lives of the tribes people... for DELUSIONS. But it was not his own delusion, it was one shared and enforced by his community! A community that is still trying to enforce this idiotic and very dangerous idea that a conviction from ones own god and conviction in ones own faith over rules all logic, reason, laws and the autonomy of other people. And that is fucking crazy to me. Missionary groups are fucking dangerous and should be illegal...not that legality would matter to them. 

Well, I don't know...you are of course entitled to feel sorry for the guy, but do you also feel sorry for the 9/11 terrorists because they were brainwashed? Because, as @Palimpsest has pointed out, Chau's actions could have extinguished the Sentinelese people. 

And I'm not one to defend missionaries, but the reason we don't have boatloads of missionaries invading Sentinel island is because most mission organizations realize that it's illegal, dangerous, and immoral to initiate contact with the tribe. Chau wasn't kept in a little box; he most likely knew plenty of Christians who would have disagreed with his plan. As far as we know, HE sought out the "mission organization" that would support his illegal endeavour.

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, Pammy said:

 It becomes easy to connect those things with other ignore-the-law activities. I’m wondering how to explain the difference to ‘insiders’.

If there is one good thing that might come out of this debacle, it is that perhaps it will open discussion.  On the flip side, if people like Chau are lauded and considered martyrs then we may get a rash of other religious zealots trying to emulate him.  I pity the 100 or so still voluntarily isolated people groups still around, if that is the case.

The mission group that you describe does sound comparatively respectful and sane so perhaps this event opens discussion with them. And, possibly even more importantly, opens discussion within their group about what they are doing,  It should make them consider why breaking or ignoring laws, and common sense, in other countries is wrong, however legitimate you think it is to take the Gospel where it isn't wanted.  As for "literacy" work, yes it is a cover.  They endanger nationals  by smuggling in Bibles and tracts and encouraging underground churches.  In many cases the foreign missionaries are merely deported when discovered, but their converts and members of underground churches are imprisoned or killed.  Is it worth it, indeed.

As to evangelism and evangelistic fervor being a "foundational idea."  Yes, evangelism is a central concept within Christianity.  Far more so than in any other religion I can think of.  It all goes back to the darn Great Commission and how literally people take it. 

Even within Christianity some people take the command in Matthew 28 (and elsewhere)  less literally than others: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”  Preterists think that command was fulfilled ages ago.  Others think that when this commission is fulfilled (all nations reached) then we will get the Second Coming.  Hooray.

Then, particularly within the most irresponsible and mainly American missionary groups, we get Dominion Theology.  It is largely a US phenomenon and really twisted thinking, IMO.  I suspect young Chau was big on it and so is his supporting group.

[Carol]

In what universe do people think their god is loving and kind, the same god who would damn people to hell for not "knowing" him.  The same god who "spoke" to John Chau and sent him to certain death because, ya know, it's all part of god's plan    

Oh wait, they're Fundiegelicals.

Fuck that shit.

[Lisafer]

8 minutes ago, Carol said:

In what universe do people think their god is loving and kind, the same god who would damn people to hell for not "knowing" him.  The same god who "spoke" to John Chau and sent him to certain death because, ya know, it's all part of god's plan    

Oh wait, they're Fundiegelicals.

Fuck that shit.

I stopped believing in hell while I was still a Christian...because I could no longer love a God who would send people to eternal torment. All the theological justifications couldn't cover up the inherent evil in the doctrine of hell.

[Briefly]

58 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I stopped believing in hell while I was still a Christian...because I could no longer love a God who would send people to eternal torment. All the theological justifications couldn't cover up the inherent evil in the doctrine of hell.

The idea of hell has always been problematic for me as a Christian. 

Also, how does this group/how did he know that the tribe doesn't already know God - or have their own belief system, in other words?  And if they do, what makes it any less valid and important to them than a Christian belief is to a Christian?  Or if they don't, then who is Chau to say that his belief is the only one and that they must believe as he does?  My belief is my belief, that is why it matters to me.  But my neighbor may have a different belief or none, and that is what matters to them - none of my business what or why the believe what they do or don't.

[DarkAnts]

The more I learn about this tribe which is little the more I realize that Chau had not done research about them.

He just wanted to be a big Christian hero by bringing Jesus to an isolated group.

[Walking Cat Bed]

11 hours ago, Pammy said:

Things like smuggling Bibles, starting underground churches, and doing Bible translation under the umbrella of ‘literacy work’ — are all considered (by evangelicalism in general) legitimate ways to fight government oppression in counties where religious freedom is curtailed by law. It becomes easy to connect those things with other ignore-the-law activities. I’m wondering how to explain the difference to ‘insiders’.

If a group desires religious texts, instruction, and guidance, then I am 100% behind individuals and organizations that meet those desires. I'd like to think that I'd help maintain their freedom to observe their religious beliefs and practices -- for any peaceful group. If they feel (or are) unsafe, I can use my privilege in that environment as a buffer. 

[samurai_sarah]

15 hours ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

If they feel (or are) unsafe, I can use my privilege in that environment as a buffer.

I'm not quite following you here. Would you mind explaining what you mean?

[Walking Cat Bed]

Sorry, I was falling asleep at my desk last night. 

9 hours ago, samurai_sarah said:

I'm not quite following you here. Would you mind explaining what you mean?

Basically, if I can use my Nice White Lady image to redirect attention or to "legitimize" someone being where they are, I will. Like, with the recent trend of people calling the police because a person of color "doesn't belong" where they are (at a park, at a library, at Starbucks), I'll take the minute to walk over and say something like "our study group is in whatever room" or "hey, you're here early, I'm going to take that table". I'm not the best at a direct confrontation, but I can defuse tension by being slightly dorky. 

[Palimpsest]

10 hours ago, samurai_sarah said:

I'm not quite following you here. Would you mind explaining what you mean?

I believe the technical term is "wielding white privilege for good."  Here's an example:   https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2018/04/24/use-your-white-privilege-fight-racism/l3kE21EFsMpTF6uboe72pI/story.html

10 hours ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

I'd like to think that I'd help maintain their freedom to observe their religious beliefs and practices -- for any peaceful group. If they feel (or are) unsafe, I can use my privilege in that environment as a buffer. 

Whether it works or not depends entirely on the context.  In some contexts a white presence may be incendiary not helpful.  As in the case of Amy Biehl.  Her story has been cleaned up over the years to make her seem just an accidental victim of random violence in South Africa.  In fact she was an activist who was warned, by black friends, not to go to the Township - went anyway thinking her American White privilege would protect her.  Not so.  Her presence was inflammatory in that place and time and no-one stopped to ask whether she was an Afrikaner enemy or an American do-gooder.  IIRC, it hasn't worked on the West Bank  either.  Foreigners thinking their mere presence will protect Palestinians can get shot just as dead.

But, yes, it is a known non-violent tactic used by some organisations successfully.  My SIL managed to get herself abducted by the Contras back in 1985.   http://witnessforpeace.org/about-us/mission-history/ 

They were marched through the jungle for a few days at gun point and then released.  Possibly because the Contras couldn't stand the whining of all those unfit American snowflakes at the walking (snark.)  The experience was a lot more than she had bargained for when she joined the delegation.   WFP thought it was great because it drew international attention to the cause - but it could have ended with the whole lot of them getting shot.

[turquoise]

Interesting article in the New York Times. Among other highlights, he participated in a "training exercise" in Kansas, organized by All Nations, that consisted of him going into a fake "village." Jim Elliot was one of his heroes. A friend says Chau knew what he was doing was illegal and dangerous, but he was determined. It sounds like he was very naive.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/world/asia/john-chau-andaman-missionary.html

[Terrie]

Great comment on the NYT article, by a "DW"

Quote

Many have expressed sympathy for Mr. Chau's family, and for the fishermen - and for the Sentinelese to the extent there is concern that germs may have been introduced. I don't think I've seen anyone mention that quite likely there is a person, or perhaps more than one person, on the island who is also traumatized by these events. It seems to be assumed that these are savages who kill people without qualms - hey, you wandered onto my island, I don't know you, I shoot you, I go back to my campfire and sing tribal songs and dance tribal dances like every night. Happy savage. These people are human beings, and they have a culture and a society. It is highly unlikely that whoever shot that bow and arrow feels nothing about it. It may well have been a life-changing, and possibly extremely disturbing, experience for that person, even if completely sanctioned by the community. We know that our own soldiers return from war traumatized by what they have seen and done. We might spare a thought for the Sentinelese in this regard as well. Aside from the trauma the community is probably feeling because of the threat they repelled (for now), they most likely feel regret and even grief over the man they killed. We will likely never know all their thoughts and feelings about the matter, but we must assume they experience normal human emotions.

 

[Briefly]

4 hours ago, turquoise said:

Interesting article in the New York Times. Among other highlights, he participated in a "training exercise" in Kansas, organized by All Nations, that consisted of him going into a fake "village." Jim Elliot was one of his heroes. A friend says Chau knew what he was doing was illegal and dangerous, but he was determined. It sounds like he was very naive.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/world/asia/john-chau-andaman-missionary.html

I read that article last night, I was going to find it again to post it here but you beat me to it!  I strongly suggest everyone read it, it says a lot about the All Nations group and it's very obvious (to me at least) that they do not care about the rights of others, and that there will never be a reason why they would not attempt to proselytize to anyone.  The rights to health and self-determination do not matter to them, they will do what they want because THEY are always going to be right and little things like laws against something are not going to stop them.  The so-called training exercise probably really cemented his belief in his own actions.

[Black Aliss]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 My SIL managed to get herself abducted by the Contras back in 1985.   http://witnessforpeace.org/about-us/mission-history/ 

They were marched through the jungle for a few days at gun point and then released.  Possibly because the Contras couldn't stand the whining of all those unfit American snowflakes at the walking (snark.) 

 

More likely because the CIA let them know that abduction was bad PR, but if they started killing white middle-class Americans they could kiss their US funding goodbye.

[Beermeet]

4 hours ago, Terrie said:

Great comment on the NYT article, by a "DW"

 

I expressed those sentiments too a page ago!  Go DW, I agree wholeheartedly.  Glad it was brought up for many to see.  The mission people involved act like those Islanders have no human emotions.  

[Duggarite]

If you know something is illegal and dangerous... what about not doing it at all? 

I have done a few illegal things in my life, I will not play saint here, but... my piece of unwanted advice: if you are doing something that is illegal and dangerous, at the first hint things are heading south , stop. Basically doing something illegal you have renounced help by police/military/law and probably healthcare workers. You are on your very own. If things do not go as planned, abort the mission. 

[Carol]

"The first one to Heaven wins".  

Does anyone besides me find this statement by John Chau chilling?  He wrote this in his journal after he acknowledges the danger of going back to Sentinel Island.  He was killed the next day.  His arrogance shocks me.

[Glasgowghirl]

27 minutes ago, Carol said:

"The first one to Heaven wins".  

Does anyone besides me find this statement by John Chau chilling? 

Very Chilling statement and the only thing he has any chance of winning is this year's Darwin Award.

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, Carol said:

"The first one to Heaven wins".  

Does anyone besides me find this statement by John Chau chilling?  He wrote this in his journal after he acknowledges the danger of going back to Sentinel Island.  He was killed the next day.  His arrogance shocks me.

So chilling!  And, the first one to heaven happened a long time ago. So, everyone after has already lost by that "logic"  : /

[Palimpsest]

18 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

More likely because the CIA let them know that abduction was bad PR, but if they started killing white middle-class Americans they could kiss their US funding goodbye.

Rufus, yes!  And believe me the irony that SIL's group of peaceniks was abducted by people dependent on US funding (and Reagan's screwed up foreign policy) was not lost on us at the time. 

I'm quite surprised that anyone else remembers the episode although it was a scary time for the family.  In reality, 'twas a blip on the face of the universe although WFP ran with it, and is still running with it, as a big success. 

[louisa05]

I was so not surprised to see in the NYT article that he was the product of a Christian high school. Because, of course he was. 

And he sat through chapel services where 30-something youth pastors dressed like teenage hipsters from the last decade told him that he had to have a "big dream" and a "big vision" of "changing the world for God" and that if would just find that vision, God would "use him" to "do great things". He was told to "be on fire" because aspiring to be a good person and be good at a job and have a good marriage and maybe raise good children is just doing "small things" and God "equipped" him to "do big things". 

Then he went to Bible class and watched a video series on the great and Godly martyr Jim Elliott and had to read books written by his widow and there was his "big thing". He just had to figure out where to go to do it. 

Enter the helpful mission organizations like the one that had their pamphlets in the hall a couple times of year. They gave him that map with the "10-40 Window". Unlike my students in the mid to late 90s, he had the internet so he could research all those places and find the perfect one. 

Then he could stand up in chapel when he was a senior and talk about how God was calling him to be a missionary to unreached people and  he found the one when God led him to search for one online (though he apparently never said which one specifically). And his teachers patted him on the back and his classmates were humbled because they really just wanted to graduate and go to college and have a kind of normal life---they were only dreaming "small things". He might have even won whatever the school's version of the "best Christian" award was. (Ours was the "Eagle trophy"). 

I saw it a million times. But the best any kids ever actually did was go on a couple of summer trips to Catholic countries or be missionaries in places not in need of missionaries like Italy and The Netherlands where they lead a pretty easy life. And several of the best Christian award winners aren't evangelicals or Christians at all anymore.