Maxwell 25: Pies, Cakes, Tarts, and Tortes

[FloraDoraDolly]

49 minutes ago, 0 kids n not countin said:

 

 

Calia is such a cutie!  I love "her style."  I too wonder (as a poster has previously noted) how NR-Anna's daughters will feel about having to wear frumpers when they're older.  Will it be an issue for them if/when they compare what they are allowed to wear to the clothes their female cousins are allowed to wear?

It's an issue that Steve and Teri didn't have to deal with. They were one, isolated nuclear family. They didn't have to deal with "peer pressure" from first cousins who live in the same neighborhood. I also wonder if there will also be issues involving what the sets of cousins are allowed to *do*, not just what they are allowed to wear. I also wonder if Callie Bates has similar questions about why she always has to wear dresses while her younger nieces do not. (Plus, some of her much-older sisters choose to wear pants as soon as they're married and leave the house.)

[IReallyAmHopewell]

5 minutes ago, FloraDoraDolly said:

It's an issue that Steve and Teri didn't have to deal with. They were one, isolated nuclear family. They didn't have to deal with "peer pressure" from first cousins who live in the same neighborhood. I also wonder if there will also be issues involving what the sets of cousins are allowed to *do*, not just what they are allowed to wear.

 

I think it will be interesting to see how all the Maxwell marriages hold up. I don't wish divorce on anyone, so i hope they are happy. But the kids are all still in the easy years. After puberty hits the fun begins. Since they aren't isolated in the backwoods somewhere, but in a suburban neighborhood, all these kids will see other children coming and going--dressing normally, doing normal things. It will take teaching fear of the world to keep them in line. That's really sick, but I'm sure Abby and Bethany and that "crew" [to take the Maxwell's most overused word for family] and probably Chrissy's kids have all had it started.

Side note--interesting to hear that a Duggar (I forget which girl) LOVES Netflix the Crown. Imagine Steve hearing one of HIS progeny watched such decadence!!! I wonder if Calia's folks watch in a closet with soundproofing or something so she can't hear and tattle to Grandpa!

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

1 hour ago, Hane said:

Ol’ Stevehovah must have a hair-trigger dick.

I'm sure I've seen a study somewhere about how male sexuality is triggered by an unusual amount of tightness/nakedness etc. on display. So if you grow up around frumpers, you may well faint over an ankle. And if you grow up in a tribe where everyone is always naked, you will be quite desensitized to a naked body. Of course, now I can't find any article like this. Will attempt to recall where I might have seen it.

So Steve is not doing any of his male kids any favours as they don't react like an average American to an average American amount of clothing.

The other thing is, of course, that sexual harassment/assault are not tied at all to the clothes of the victim. Lots of victims can tell you they weren't wearing anything particularly sexy/revealing during their assault. It's, to repeat the cliche, about power, not being out of control turned on by the victim's revealing clothing. Despite what my grandma used to say! (She, unfortunately, was a product of her victim-blaming times. Also medium racist.)

[Lisafer]

56 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree, but I get the impression those girls didn't need to tailor their behavior or suppress who they are in order to survive emotionally in their home.

And when you are trying to survive while imprisoned you do what you can to get through it.  Some become docile and their captors pets and other personalities react differently.

I know it sounds like hyperbole and in some ways it is, but I do think Sarah is mentally and emotionally imprisoned by her parents as securely as if she were locked in her room.  

I agree that Sarah has been mentally stunted and trapped, but her own Bible that she claims to love so much and reads every day talks about removing the log from your own eye before going after the speck in your neighbor's. If talking about other people's clothes at church doesn't fall under that verse, I don't know what does. I think she's mentally competent enough to figure that out...

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I agree that Sarah has been mentally stunted and trapped, but her own Bible that she claims to love so much and reads every day talks about removing the log from your own eye before going after the speck in your neighbor's. If talking about other people's clothes at church doesn't fall under that verse, I don't know what does. I think she's mentally competent enough to figure that out...

I agree from a logical standpoint...I meant the survival mechanism she needed to employ to survive Steve and Teri.  

Not everyone can stand up to that so they become part of it to survive.  Obviously I don't know her, just saying it is a possibility.

[Lisafer]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree from a logical standpoint...I meant the survival mechanism she needed to employ to survive Steve and Teri.  

Not everyone can stand up to that so they become part of it to survive.  Obviously I don't know her, just saying it is a possibility.

Well, I do tend to mentally assign Steve and Teri more of the blame because they brought their children up this way! They have a lot of responsibility for fucking up their kids.

[anjulibai]

1 hour ago, 0 kids n not countin said:

Calia is such a cutie!  I love "her style."  I too wonder (as a poster has previously noted) how NR-Anna's daughters will feel about having to wear frumpers when they're older.  Will it be an issue for them if/when they compare what they are allowed to wear to the clothes their female cousins are allowed to wear?

I wouldn't be surprised if they get told that their cousins aren't as godly as they are. They might end up like Sarah, having conversations with their mother about just how can their cousins dress like that and why do their cousins' parents allow it. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Lisafer said:

Well, I do tend to mentally assign Steve and Teri more of the blame because they brought their children up this way! They have a lot of responsibility for fucking up their kids.

This is an interesting discussion...for me it's one of the most complicated areas for me.

At what point are the kidults (defined by still following the church of their parents blindly) responsible for their own choices to continue to comply.

And are some even capable of non-compliance?  Is the stunting permanent for some?

By the same token if you bring kids into your cult and perpetuate it I have no problem holding you accountable (looking at you, Anna Duggar) ...and is that fair in every case?

Like I said, it's complicated for me.

There is a danger of infantalizing women like Sarah, feeling sorry for her long into adulthood when we have no idea how much of what she is doing in a choice...in kindness stripping her of her agency.  But there is a danger in holding people accountable for not protecting themselves as adults when they may well be too emotionally damaged to do so.

Complicated.

8 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

They might end up like Sarah, having conversations with their mother about just how can their cousins dress like that and why do their cousins' parents allow it. 

Either way it has to annoy the fuck out of Steve which amuses me.

[Lisafer]

18 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This is an interesting discussion...for me it's one of the most complicated areas for me.

At what point are the kidults (defined by still following the church of their parents blindly) responsible for their own choices to continue to comply.

And are some even capable of non-compliance?  Is the stunting permanent for some?

 

Yeah, it's complicated, and I know we've discussed it on other threads as well...I always think of various aspects of responsibility. Like legal responsibility: if one of the kidults commits a crime, they can and should be held criminally liable for it. They're not incapacitated.

I give myself some grace on account of having been raised in a patriarchal, racist mindset. Many things I did in my childhood and later teens were not really of my own free will, as I'd been raised to believe in Hell and was terrified of it. But there are also times when I was a judgmental asshole and I could have recognized that if I had chosen to do so. 

I personally feel that Sarah has put herself forth as a spokesperson and author (Sure, Steve may  have influenced that, but I don't think there'd be so many Moody books and blog entries if she didn't enjoy it in one way or another) and she needs to be held accountable for what she teaches others and the public judgments she makes on other people. 

Also, many fundie children have left. It's not impossible. I've known many fundie families and grew up in one. It's a hard thing to leave, but many have done it. 

(These are just my thoughts on the subject, and I understand everybody has a different perspective, of course).

[nokidsmom]

35 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree from a logical standpoint...I meant the survival mechanism she needed to employ to survive Steve and Teri.  

Not everyone can stand up to that so they become part of it to survive.  Obviously I don't know her, just saying it is a possibility.

To bolded, I saw this with my two sisters.   My parents, who were not fundie btw, had a parenting style that in some aspects, was just like Steve and Teri.    My Dad on his worst days was very much like Steve Maxwell.   My two sisters, with the exception of the fact that they went to school and held jobs, lived lives very much like Sarah into their 30s.  To survive, both of them were surprisingly (to me) compliant with what my parents put on them.  Life would be hell if they didn't.   I didn't understand it until much later.   

[kpmom]

42 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

At what point are the kidults (defined by still following the church of their parents blindly) responsible for their own choices to continue to comply.

And are some even capable of non-compliance?  Is the stunting permanent for some?

 

I'm enjoying this discussion.

How many of us, not raised fundie and well past  our young adult years still sometimes have our parents voices in our heads?  I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be for someone raised fundie.

Steve told an interesting story years ago.  Apparently when the kids were  little and they were traveling around doing their dog and pony shows, Steve made a decision they would not eat in any restaurant that also had a bar in it.  While they were traveling they would actually send one of the kids in to restaurants while they waited in the parking lot to see if there was a bar.

Anyway, a few years later the family wanted to eat at a Mexican restaurant while on the road.  Apparently the one they wanted to eat in had a bar.  Steve decided he had been wrong (also probably had a guacamole jones going on) and they went in to eat.  Apparently John could not eat he felt so guilty about eating in a restaurant with a bar.  Steve had to apologize to him later.

Well, anyway, this whole long story to say, yes, I think fundie parents like Steve and Teri can raise children who are not even capable of non-compliance.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, kpmom said:

I'm enjoying this discussion.

How many of us, not raised fundie and well past  our young adult years still sometimes have our parents voices in our heads?  I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be for someone raised fundie.

Steve told an interesting story years ago.  Apparently when the kids were  little and they were traveling around doing their dog and pony shows, Steve made a decision they would not eat in any restaurant that also had a bar in it.  While they were traveling they would actually send one of the kids in to restaurants while they waited in the parking lot to see if there was a bar.

Anyway, a few years later the family wanted to eat at a Mexican restaurant while on the road.  Apparently the one they wanted to eat in had a bar.  Steve decided he had been wrong (also probably had a guacamole jones going on) and they went in to eat.  Apparently John could not eat he felt so guilty about eating in a restaurant with a bar.  Steve had to apologize to him later.

Well, anyway, this whole long story to say, yes, I think fundie parents like Steve and Teri can raise children who are not even capable of non-compliance.

Thanks for that story, it's so illustrative of how destructive these absolutes can be.

 

[Black Aliss]

6 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I mean, maybe but...talk about about "negative attention is better than no attention" thinking!

Which is the hallmark of a narcissist. Exhibit A: Donald Trump's hair.

[SPHASH]

So Goofy Anna and Scary Mary teach a bible school class.   I doubt the nieces and nephews are allowed to participate since the kids probably go to evil public school.

[Lisafer]

3 hours ago, kpmom said:

I'm enjoying this discussion.

How many of us, not raised fundie and well past  our young adult years still sometimes have our parents voices in our heads?  I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be for someone raised fundie.

Steve told an interesting story years ago.  Apparently when the kids were  little and they were traveling around doing their dog and pony shows, Steve made a decision they would not eat in any restaurant that also had a bar in it.  While they were traveling they would actually send one of the kids in to restaurants while they waited in the parking lot to see if there was a bar.

Anyway, a few years later the family wanted to eat at a Mexican restaurant while on the road.  Apparently the one they wanted to eat in had a bar.  Steve decided he had been wrong (also probably had a guacamole jones going on) and they went in to eat.  Apparently John could not eat he felt so guilty about eating in a restaurant with a bar.  Steve had to apologize to him later.

Well, anyway, this whole long story to say, yes, I think fundie parents like Steve and Teri can raise children who are not even capable of non-compliance.

I loved your thoughtful post, but the term "guacamole jones" is giving me the giggles! I've had a case of the guacamole jones a time or two myself...

[socalrules]

So no one else is wondering how Anna started teaching this Bible club that is obviously in someone else’s kitchen with kids that are minorities? That is just completely outside of the normal Maxwell way of life. I also wonder why Anna is wearing a headset in the picture. 

[danvillebelle]

26 minutes ago, socalrules said:

So no one else is wondering how Anna started teaching this Bible club that is obviously in someone else’s kitchen with kids that are minorities?

I most definitely am.  I don't know that I've ever seen any photos of them with anyone of color, EVER.  Of course it has to be a Bible club, but at least she is actually interacting with people who have very different lives than the inhabitants of Maxhell.

[kpmom]

Could that Bible club picture have been taken during she and Mary's mission trip earlier this year?

Typical Sarah, throws in something completely new, Bible club, and gives no explanation about it.

[SassyPants]

I wonder if within the fundie world there are levels that are known only to other fundies.

For example, The Websters (John's parents) might be in 1 level.

The Duggars and Bates in another, and the Maxwells in a completely different level. Maybe some families are "more desirable" in terms of pairing???????

I could see people being turned off by Steve Maxwell.

Although, which would be harder , a son married to a M. daughter, or a daughter married to a M. son?

 

[anjulibai]

Son married to a Maxwell daughter. Steve would be way more demanding and controlling, which is why none of the girls has married yet. A married Maxwell son has some freedom, so his wife doesn't have to deal with Steve as much. Plus, a daughter-in-law gets free labor from the her sisters-in-law on a regular basis, which must be very nice. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, anjulibai said:

Plus, a daughter-in-law gets free labor from the her sisters-in-law on a regular basis, which must be very nice. 

Idk - that would have been way too much enmeshment for me when my kids were small.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, anjulibai said:

which is why none of the girls has married yet.

I think they haven't married because Steve can't give up control but would have to...otherwise he'd have to back track the whole headship thing. 

 

[PennySycamore]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder if within the fundie world there are levels that are known only to other fundies.

For example, The Websters (John's parents) might be in 1 level.

The Duggars and Bates in another, and the Maxwells in a completely different level. Maybe some families are "more desirable" in terms of pairing???????

I could see people being turned off by Steve Maxwell.

Although, which would be harder , a son married to a M. daughter, or a daughter married to a M. son?

 

Gee, @SassyPants, that sounds rather like Scientology.

[HereticHick]

5 hours ago, kpmom said:

Could that Bible club picture have been taken during she and Mary's mission trip earlier this year?

Typical Sarah, throws in something completely new, Bible club, and gives no explanation about it.

Several people ask about it in the comments and talks about it as if it is an ongoing thing. But all she reveals is that her nieces and nephews don't attend.

I'm not sure its the kitchen of a home. I wonder if it is some sort of daycare center? There look to be far too many craft/school supplies in the closet to be someone's home. Leavenworth has some sort of Army facility, right?

Perhaps a church basement and these are neighborhood kids?  But these are don't look like kids from the Maxwell's neighborhood. I could be wrong but I get the feeling their neighborhood is whiter than Miracle Whip on Wonder Bread.

 

[Jana814]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think they haven't married because Steve can't give up control but would have to...otherwise he'd have to back track the whole headship thing. 

 

I have thought this for years!  Glad I’m not the only one.