Josiah and Lauren Part 9: Where Are They Honeymooning?

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, LillyP said:

Yep, this. I went to a Southern Baptist college (for a year before transferring out). I know SO many people who got married young and without having ever really dated. They're all super religious and they don't even know if they have a miserable marriage because they are taught from a young age that marriage is forever and you just make it work. Plus, they have nothing to compare it to. To them being in a Christian marriage means practicing JOY - Jesus first, others second (aka: your spouse), yourself last. Their whole marriage is about making the other happy and serving God....but that just not realistic in life for the average person.

It seems like a structure that could work - IF both partners are equally committed to putting the other first - AND don’t have strong conflicting desires and goals. But that’s the problem ——

[Pete Pickles]

On 7/10/2018 at 12:30 AM, Mama Mia said:

Painful ...

BUT - maybe, just maybe they are completely zapped of all possible energy or coherent thought for the reasons most 19 and 21 year olds who just got some serious grown-up time would be . Maybe. Hopefully. 

 

Or...Josiah thinks it’s the sex Olympics and they have to do it 900 times a day. I’m not saying he’s Michael Pearl, but I am saying he has likely been suppressing some feelings and expectations about sex for as far back as his first courtship. (Downvote me if you want to. Someone had to say it. Poor girl looks exhausted.)

On 7/11/2018 at 1:09 PM, louisa05 said:

 

Or she could be having the issue that a friend of mine who was raised full on fundie complete with abstinence/purity culture had at the time of her marriage. Now that she has left fundamentalism, she has talked very openly about it. Girls are told over and over from before they really understand sex how they are pure and how important it is to remain pure and how it so special and amazing that they are pure. And that word means nothing but staying a virgin. So losing their virginity, even on their wedding night, is a loss of something very important and special about them. Plus, everyone knows it happened. My friend felt devastated the morning after her wedding in spite of intellectually knowing that this was when she was supposed to have sex and it was okay now. She had even given talks to some youth groups as a college student about how great it was to be a pure virgin. Now she wasn't. There is no switch to flip and that change is hard for some. Even when she was still attending an evangelical church, she refused to expose her two daughters to that thinking because of the negative consequences it had for her in the beginning of her marriage. She has particularly singled out the words "pure" and "purity". The connotations of those words are something clean and good. Something "impure" is bad and dirty. I have seen writing around the web from other former fundie women who talk about that very issue. 

I was going to talk about purity culture but you nailed it. And she’s also about to see her whole narrative of “pure courtship standards” play out on TV, followed by her wedding and honeymoon. I don’t think being a virgin at your wedding is a bad thing, but I think having it be very public knowledge is terrible. Would you want your entire sexual history to be known by your in-laws’ thousands of “fans,” even if that history was nothing? It’s very personal.

[Mama Mia]

9 minutes ago, Pete Pickles said:

Or...Josiah thinks it’s the sex Olympics and they have to do it 900 times a day. I’m not saying he’s Michael Pearl, but I am saying he has likely been suppressing some feelings and expectations about sex for as far back as his first courtship. (Downvote me if you want to. Someone had to say it. Poor girl looks exhausted.)

 

Or...it’s the other way around. They both, presumably, got the same book. Which talks, extensively, about the need for pleasure for BOTH, and is very, very detailed in many possible ways to achieve that. 

There is no reason to assume he has the higher sex Drive. I know, we can’t assume much of anything about what actually goes on between them —— but seriously, sometimes it’s awfully 1950’s upper middle class societal norms in here.

[Pete Pickles]

8 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Or...it’s the other way around. They both, presumably, got the same book. Which talks, extensively, about the need for pleasure for BOTH, and is very, very detailed in many possible ways to achieve that. 

There is no reason to assume he has the higher sex Drive. I know, we can’t assume much of anything about what actually goes on between them —— but seriously, sometimes it’s awfully 1950’s upper middle class societal norms in here.

I hadn’t assumed she read the book, though I guess it’s possible. We already know it’s a mainstay for his family, so we can assume he has read it. As far as sex drive, she doesn’t look like she has any interest in jumping his bones or even kissing him (hence the pulling away some people have noticed). 

I didn’t think my speculation was sexist in any way (she happens to be a woman and several others have commented she seems sad and withdrawn) and I hope this response doesn’t read as defensive. I’m just saying I don’t think my speculation was totally outlandish. I had some basis for it.

[Mama Mia]

15 minutes ago, Pete Pickles said:

I hadn’t assumed she read the book, though I guess it’s possible. We already know it’s a mainstay for his family, so we can assume he has read it. As far as sex drive, she doesn’t look like she has any interest in jumping his bones or even kissing him (hence the pulling away some people have noticed). 

I didn’t think my speculation was sexist in any way (she happens to be a woman and several others have commented she seems sad and withdrawn) and I hope this response doesn’t read as defensive. I’m just saying I don’t think my speculation was totally outlandish. I had some basis for it.

I respect that’s not what you were going for, but IMHO, it is sexist to assume she wasn’t just as interested, if not more so. One of the reasons for the commentary on her reactions in the car video is that it was extremely different that the after wedding video ( which I believe has since been edited ) . Where she seemed very, very, very excited about starting married life. He did not. At all. 

Also, as far as I remember, from a thousand years ago, a book would help with technique and reassurance that everything is “normal” , but the drive and basics are kind of innate. 

[Lurky]

I guess it's easier to get to 1000 guests in Duggar-land when just inviting 5 of the families closest to you enue couldn't takes you to 100 people!  But I also get the impression the Duggars are very much into the gift grab too.

What I really want to know is if they're still doing what they did at Joy's wedding, when the Rodrigues family got their late "invitation" that had that revealing bit about how the venue couldn't hold everyone that was invited, so not to assume they could actually come (I paraphrase).  I think Jill Rod making that one public was what got her booted off the guest list completely.

[Pete Pickles]

12 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I respect that’s not what you were going for, but IMHO, it is sexist to assume she wasn’t just as interested, if not more so. One of the reasons for the commentary on her reactions in the car video is that it was extremely different that the after wedding video ( which I believe has since been edited ) . Where she seemed very, very, very excited about starting married life. He did not. At all. 

Also, as far as I remember, from a thousand years ago, a book would help with technique and reassurance that everything is “normal” , but the drive and basics are kind of innate. 

Yes! I did get to see the unedited video from the wedding day. That’s why I think my mind jumped to Michael pearl (again, I am in no way saying Josiah is abusing his new wife in the same way Pearl did), but she went from seeming very clingy and excited to consummate to...not. He went from seemingly standoffish to much more confident, going in for that very audible kiss. Pure and total speculation. 

And to be totally fair, I’ve found Josiah to look and speak so much like Josh that it’s possible I’m injecting a weeeeee bit of bias in that regard...I like to think I wouldn’t do that, but Josh is a giant creep, Si looks just like him, and Lauren reminds me of our meek little newlywed Anna as well. So I’ll give you that.

Obligatory disclaimer: Si has given me no reason to think he’s a creep or anything like josh or MP. I hope no one thinks that’s what I’m saying. The comparison to MP is just another possibility that came to mind and no one had mentioned it. I don’t think I’ve yet noticed such an excited virginal fundie bride become so lackluster as soon as she became a sexually submissive wife.

[Dandruff]

After Josh, I think the Duggar "boys" are trying hard to improve the family image by not traumatizing their wives.  Or giving the appearance of it.  Nevertheless, I thought Lauren looked very unhappy...but this could have been for any number of reasons.  Maybe Josiah played a prank (I hate the Duggar pranks) on her that went over badly?  Was she exhausted?  Feeling ill?  Plans for housing/honeymoon/dinner went awry?

I'm giving Josiah the benefit of the doubt at this point.  He has always seemed like a nice guy, pranks aside, and he's not Josh or any of his other brothers.

[AprilQuilt]

About Lauren pulling back from that kiss: I hear what people are saying, re perhaps her having discovered she doesn't really desire Josiah physically, but I'm inclined to think it's more linked to what others are saying - that she is painfully aware that everybody knows that she isn't a virgin any more, and she isn't comfortable to flaunt it? I think maybe Patheos had an article years ago from the point of view of a fundie woman who, when she lost her virginity, felt she lost her preciousness and specialness. It must be incredibly discombobulating to go from fairytale sparklebride (which Lauren did find dreamy!), being rewarded and congratulated by thousands of guests for her godly chaste courtship... to being just like any woman - 'worldly' and defiled.

I think it's more reasonable to assume that Lauren is having a hard time dealing with her change in status rather than disillusionment with marriage/sex/Josiah specifically. I agree that she comes across as mega awkward and stressed in that video, and I am inclined to think that a lot of it is just anxiety and stage-fright, and feeling very alone in her new role. Josiah is not doing a good job of guiding her through it, so I think in that sense their partnership doesn't look brilliantly healthy. But observing and reflecting on her needs is something he could well learn - often the strength of a relationship comes from learning to respond better to your partner over time, rather than just being innately perfect for one another from the get-go.

Basically, yes, she's emotional and maybe distressed in that 35 second video; he is ploughing on ahead doing this TV role he's been trained for since childhood, and either not seeing her struggle or not knowing how to react to it. But this on its own doesn't mean there is something rotten in the state of SiRen. They are both so young. I hope they're able to grow together. I do.

[AprilQuilt]

(I also really remember the first time things progressed beyond making out for me as a teenager who'd received perfectly adequate sex ed - I thought that I wanted it, I thought I was ready, I was most certainly horny, but the reality was actually kind of shocking and obscene to me. I was actually a bit jarred and horrified. So I can believe that Lauren might be freaked out by the realities of sex if she's been primed to think of it as an orgasmic, divine union between matched souls. If you haven't seen a dick before, and now you've signed yourself up to like, what, TOUCH IT?! - it can be quite freaky, however much you like the other person)

[tabitha2]

That’s usually only the first few times though unless something Is wrong one way or other. She will get over it probably. I highly doubt she will ever do more than The basically back and think of Jesus anyway. What does The Duggar Sex manual say about oral exactly?

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

We were reminding Youngest last year that Santa could see EVERYTHING so he better be good and Oldest under breath says to me "that's some creepy stalker shit right there". Cracked me up!

Of all my cousins, only two (who were brothers) ever actually believed in Santa. We other cousins were all instructed to allow them to continue believing even though we knew/believed Santa wasn't real (combination of Judaism in my family, different cultural traditions for the German cousins, and for all of us non-believer kids, having parents who just weren't into superstition). My oldest cousin got dirty looks at the mall when he, at four years old, responded to the question "do you believe in Santa, little boy?" with "only from December 1st to December 25th". The believer brothers were often kept in line during the holidays by their mom (my aunt) brandishing her phone and declaring that she would call 1-800-BAD-KIDS and tell Santa to skip their house. Worked until the older one tried to call 1-800-BAD-KIDS. 

[Pete Pickles]

@Mama Mia I want to also thank you for addressing the topic with respect. I’ve been a victim of cyber bullying (several years ago when a perfectly tame comment went unintentionally viral and I started getting hateful messages from thousands of strangers), which is why I lurked here for so many years before taking the plunge to join and post. Anytime I share any potentially disagreeable comments, I usually brace for impact and hope it doesn’t affect me too strongly to be attacked by someone. This is a snark site, so some backlash is to be expected, but I’ve never felt personally attacked here and I love that people like you can make it a safe place for discussion and disagreement.

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, AprilQuilt said:

(I also really remember the first time things progressed beyond making out for me as a teenager who'd received perfectly adequate sex ed - I thought that I wanted it, I thought I was ready, I was most certainly horny, but the reality was actually kind of shocking and obscene to me. I was actually a bit jarred and horrified. So I can believe that Lauren might be freaked out by the realities of sex if she's been primed to think of it as an orgasmic, divine union between matched souls. If you haven't seen a dick before, and now you've signed yourself up to like, what, TOUCH IT?! - it can be quite freaky, however much you like the other person)

Yes, this!  Even though i was ready in mind and body, I wasn't totally prepared to have a penis in me.  It hurts at first for one and it seemed more invasive than I expected.   I asked him to stop, he did.  We tried it again and it was much better but I still couldn't last long, it took some time and props to my bf for being gentle and patient.  The comfort in my situation is that we were not married and I never had to do it with him ever again if that's what I wanted for whatever reason.  Not saying that's what Lauren is feeling but my story mirrors many women I've spoken to on that subject.   Once you are married, it would be weird to hold off a few weeks after first encounter.   The pressure!  Sorry if TMI but, it's the truth.

[KelseyAnn]

17 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

Hmm, various cultures around the world have massive weddings, and they aren't cultish or royalty.  The cultures that I know about that tend to have massive weddings are China and India.  Also a lady from Kenya that was at a place I used to work was having her wedding in India and they were booking out a hotel that her parents were paying  for, they were also paying for entertainment for a few days, etc for several hundred guests.

Fuck- I'm Catholic and I've literally never been to a family wedding where it didn't seem like half the town was in attendance. 

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, AprilQuilt said:

(I also really remember the first time things progressed beyond making out for me as a teenager who'd received perfectly adequate sex ed - I thought that I wanted it, I thought I was ready, I was most certainly horny, but the reality was actually kind of shocking and obscene to me. I was actually a bit jarred and horrified. So I can believe that Lauren might be freaked out by the realities of sex if she's been primed to think of it as an orgasmic, divine union between matched souls. If you haven't seen a dick before, and now you've signed yourself up to like, what, TOUCH IT?! - it can be quite freaky, however much you like the other person)

The first time I had sex, I was honestly so let down. I'd been told via media that sex was so awesome and orgasmic and when you're doing it with a significant other (I had a boyfriend), it was super romantic and you'd fuck till the break of dawn because you're so on the same wavelength so the sex would be AMAZING. 

Well, we were both very awkward teenage virgins doing it on my childhood twin bed on a random afternoon in June hoping to god my parents didn't come home early. He had no idea how to stimulate me, I have giant horse teeth so my first effort at a BJ was rather disastrous, and neither of us really knew what to do with our bodies. Didn't help that we were on a twin bed. Awkward. As. Fuck. I didn't feel dirty or anything, just kinda let down by how awkward and mundane it was. 

Now, thankfully, I've since had some awesome (and not so awesome) sexual experiences and my current partner is fucking fantastic (or should I say fantastic fucking?). Obviously having multiple sexual partners isn't how everyone rolls, but having lots of different sexual experiences really did help me figure out what I want and don't want, what I like and don't like, and what gets other people off. 

[tabitha2]

I was prepared to have pain when I had  sex the first time having been told that was normal for Virgins. Nothing. Just kind of slid right up in their and went to town.It wasn’t great ,it wasn’t horrible either. Was distinctly underwhelmed. 

[AprilQuilt]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

The first time I had sex, I was honestly so let down. I'd been told via media that sex was so awesome and orgasmic and when you're doing it with a significant other (I had a boyfriend), it was super romantic and you'd fuck till the break of dawn because you're so on the same wavelength so the sex would be AMAZING. 

Yeah, it was the mundanity of it that got me. I expected somehow to transcend awkwardness and the experiences of everyday physicality. You don't change just because you are in the middle of having sex; you are the same old human you always were, and the pain of losing your virginity is not in any way elevated, it's just someone trying to shove something inside of you. I thought I would come out of it changed, and I didn't really - or not in the way I thought I would.

I think the potential for what people *say* sex is - transcendence; sharing a really passionate and intense moment; the whole world stops existing - is actually something that is more likely to come along later. When you're at a point where you are broadly familiar with how it all works and aren't constantly worrying about what you are meant to be doing with your limbs, teeth, breathing etc, or surprised by very new sensations. Bonus, maybe, if you know the other person well; knowing your own (sexual) self is probably more the key. This isn't to say that first sex can't be exciting and hot and amazing, but I think it's harmful to expect that it will be the best it can ever be. But that's what the received wisdom is, a lot of the time.

I guess I'm saying I wish I'd known it might be a bit crap, and not to worry about that. Maybe you're meant to hold out for the 'right person' not because you are sharing something Extremely Special with them, but in fact something Extremely Awkward. 

[Mama Mia]

4 hours ago, Pete Pickles said:

@Mama Mia I want to also thank you for addressing the topic with respect. I’ve been a victim of cyber bullying (several years ago when a perfectly tame comment went unintentionally viral and I started getting hateful messages from thousands of strangers), which is why I lurked here for so many years before taking the plunge to join and post. Anytime I share any potentially disagreeable comments, I usually brace for impact and hope it doesn’t affect me too strongly to be attacked by someone. This is a snark site, so some backlash is to be expected, but I’ve never felt personally attacked here and I love that people like you can make it a safe place for discussion and disagreement.

Thank you for saying that! Trying to convey respectful disagreement /debate on line can be so challenging - there’s none of the nuance and non-verbal cues and back and forth you get in real life interactions. Plus, of course,  not knowing other people’s communication norms and triggers. It’s something I’ve tried to work on in forums like this - as my natural style tends towards overly blunt and argumentative. It’s how my family and friends are - and I need to remind myself that on-line is different! This forum, over the years, has helped me a lot with that. There is such a wide range of perspectives and backgrounds.

I’m sorry you went through cyber bullying, that’s awful. 

 

 

[Shadoewolf]

After cyber-bullying at a parents forum turned into legit hacking of my passwords, harassment and stalking that required police involvement I was hesitant to post here too. But lurking for almost a year first helped me to understand board culture. I've gotten my butt smacked down once or twice over things I've said but nothing where I'd say fuck it and never come back. 

And I admit it, thread drift is awesome sometimes!!

[BachelorToTheRapture]

I'm getting married in a couple months (despite my username) and can't imagine wanting that many guests! I did not let my parents invite their friends, I chose which of their friends are important to me (those I grew up with and still see occasionally at family gatherings). It was a little bit due to budget, but mostly my fiance and I only want people we know and care about there on our big day, we want to focus on each other and our friends and family, not a bunch of acquaintances we don't really care about.

[CherylV]

On 7/10/2018 at 6:44 PM, louisa05 said:

One of the things that the abstinence people go on about in the evangelical world is that married sex is the greatest thing in the world and if you wait, you will have amazing mind blowing sex with your spouse. If you don't, you will be a used piece of chewing gum who is busy comparing your spouse to the previous gum chewer or a wilted dying flower that has been handled so many times it has no senses left or something like that... and it will all be utterly horrible forever and ever. I personally know evangelicals who bought this line of thinking 100% and were damn disappointed with the honeymoon sex because they didn't know they'd have to take some time and figure it all out or that the first time would be a bit awkward and not that great. Even the ones who had that exact book kind of thought that the bits about the beginning not being fantastic wouldn't apply because they waited. 

Exactly. I lived this. 19 and  married a virgin to someone who I had not dated long. I dropped out of college for him and moved cross country. My dad said “1 down, 3 to go”...I am telling my girls not to marry the first guy as a teenager. 

I expected that since I waited and was a virgin that sex would be amazing. It wasn’t it was painful and horrible. Penis was shocking - I had all little sisters (yes I was basically a sister mom). I  also didn’t get to say no to sex ever in that marriage.  The entitled male I married was raised it was his right and he didn’t have to bother with kissing or foreplay just go right to it. It I tried saying no and I was forced. Even violently. It was easier to lie there and cry. I went to Drs and counselors trying t find out what was wrong with me. They couldn’t find anything. 

Tha jerk divorced ME after a year because I was bad at sex, I was devastated. Waited thought I did  things Gods way and not only was sex awful when it was supposed to be better  but I was no longer pure and divorced. 

Next guy I dated I had sex before marriage because I thought I was  broken . It didn’t hurt that was my baseline. It was a relief it didn’t hurt - only I got pregnant and married HIM to do the right thing and he turned out to be physically (though not sexually abusive) and wanted me to have as many babies as God gives us. I had 5 babies on 4.5 years - last pregnancy was twins and I hemmoraged and  had a tubal after that. 

We split up after he knocked me out and broke my nose badly and messed up my nexkndosks  - I have chronic pain still and had to have a surgery to fix my nose (done a decade later and had chronic sinus infections for years because the insides were messed up so bad). I became a single parent of 5 kids with no local family when they were ages 2-7. I also lost my friend group as big husbands were from same church group and at that point it was assumed my fault. 

I single parented for  8 years before I met my husband and remarried. Hard as hell and involved food banks.   I am scAred for the Duggar girls - I blame a lot of the mess and pain I went through on the whole purity movement and culture that it’s ok to get married at 19 and drop out of school. I get the disillusionment that comes from doing everything “right” and it’s not the perfect siutiom that’s promised. 

My current husband took on 5 extra kids and I’ve added 2 stepkids for a combined 7. However- I’m still the traditional role and dependent on him and he’s a trump supporter and far more conservative than Inrealized when we were dating - I left Canada, healthcare and subsidized housing...we are making things work and when he’s mad he threatens to leave me or says “If you don’t like _____ there’s the door feel free to leave” type stuff which is emotional abuse since house is in his name - he’s the one with the business - I just work low income part time. 

I hope Lauren is just tired but I worry and Anna my heart breaks for - I have all “M’s” also and their dad was physically abusive  and cheated on me and it was devastating and NOT in the public eye. It’s also damn hard to have that many young kids and no career and jump off alone. I should have left sooner but it’s such a daunting task esp seeing divorce as a sin. My parents never told anyone at their church about divorce #1 too shameful.  

 

[Mama Mia]

4 minutes ago, CherylV said:

Exactly. I lived this. 19 and  married a virgin to someone who I had not dated long. I dropped out of college for him and moved cross country. My dad said “1 down, 3 to go”...I am telling my girls not to marry the first guy as a teenager. 

I expected that since I waited and was a virgin that sex would be amazing. It wasn’t it was painful and horrible. I also didn’t get to say no to sex ever in that marriage.  The entitled male I married was raised it was his right and he didn’t have to bother with kissing or foreplay just go right to it. It I tried saying no I was forced. I was easier to lie there and cry. I went to Drs and counselors trying t find out what was wrong with me. They couldn’t find anything. 

Tha jerk divorced ME after a year because I was bad at sex, I was devastated. Waited thought I did  things Gods way and no only was send bad - but I was no longer pure and divorced. 

Next guy Indated bags awx because I thought I was  broken . It didn’t hurt that was my baseline. It was a relief it didn’t hurt - only I got pregnant and married HIM to do the right thing and he turned out to be physically (though not sexually abusive) and wanted me to have as many babies as God gives us. I had 5 babies on 4.5 years - last pregnancy was twinsand had a tubal with the twins. 

We splitnup after he knocked me out and he’s me up badly - I have chronic pain still. I became a single parent of 5 kids when they were ages 2-7 and single parented for  8 years before I met my husband and remarried  I am scAred for the Duggar girls - I blame a lot of the mess and pain I went through on the whole purity movement and culture that it’s ok to get married at 19 and drop out of school. I get the disillusionment that comes from doing everything “right” and it’s not the perfect siutiom that’s promised. 

My current husband took on 5 extra kids and I’ve added 2 stepkids for a combined 7. However- I’m still the traditional role and dependent on him and he’s a trump supporter and far more conservative than Inrealized when we were dating - I left Canada, healthcare and subsidized housing...we are making things work and when he’s mad he threatens to leave me or says “If you don’t like _____ there’s the door feel free to leave” type stuff which is emotional abuse since house is in his name - he’s the one with the business - I just work low income part time. 

I hope Lauren is just tired but I worry and Anna my heart breaks for - I have all “M’s” also and their dad was physically abusive  and cheated on me and it was devastating and NOT in the public eye. It’s also damn hard to have that many young kids and no career and jump off alone. I should have left sooner but it’s such a daunting task esp seeing divorce as a sin. My parents never told anyone at their church about divorce #1 too shameful.  

 

Just wanted to say you’re a strong, strong woman - and shouldn’t have to deal with that kind of BS, from any of those asses. 

[seraaa]

16 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

(I also really remember the first time things progressed beyond making out for me as a teenager who'd received perfectly adequate sex ed - I thought that I wanted it, I thought I was ready, I was most certainly horny, but the reality was actually kind of shocking and obscene to me. I was actually a bit jarred and horrified. So I can believe that Lauren might be freaked out by the realities of sex if she's been primed to think of it as an orgasmic, divine union between matched souls. If you haven't seen a dick before, and now you've signed yourself up to like, what, TOUCH IT?! - it can be quite freaky, however much you like the other person)

This is very plausible.

I mean, I even cried when I got my first period, and there had never been any explicit shaming around sex or puberty in my family. But it was a change, and changes can be unnerving, hence the tears.

The two of them had just come off the back of a huge life change - from unmarried to married - and a big wedding, which had been filmed for television. It's a lot! Even if you are totally happy and ready to move on, it's still a lot, and your mind and body registers that, even there is no trauma involved.

[Thorns]

Wedding: A fundy peep show.