Questions about becoming Catholic

[FundieCentral]

@llucie: ok, thank you. 

Well, so sounds to me like a compromise could be the blessing of the marriage in the Catholic Church, in which no vow regarding raising of children is made (which as I understand it would not be required, because this would not be sacramental wedding mass but just a blessing service without a Eucharist), allowing @99bottlesofPlexus to take the Eucharist, OP attending mass and participating in all activities of the parish, with no expectation or obligation that the husband will join, and raising the child with introducing two belief systems (Catholicism and agnosticism) and at 6 years old or so asking the child about baptism? 

If you want Catholicism, the pure & organic version, you might have to divorce and marry a Catholic in a Catholic wedding. 

[anjulibai]

OP, how old are you? You sound very young and naive.

Just an FYI, but if you do divorce, it's very possible your husband wouldn't allow your daughter to be raised Catholic, even to just go to the church.

My mom was Catholic and my dad Presbyterian, and while my mother was willing to let me be baptized in both religions, he was not. She wouldn't agree to only raising me Presbyterian, as she believed it should ultimately be up to me what path I followed.

It was such a point of contention to my dad that I not be exposed to Catholicism, that he had it written in to their divorce decree that I not be raised in any religion. 

So, I'm not Catholic - or anything. 

Just something to think about. 

[feministxtian]

8 hours ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

So, what do you think would make a good compromise here, that will honor him while allowing me to live my faith of choice?

I have no fucking idea...this is YOUR problem. Now, stop being a little, whiny bitch and grow up. You're pulling a bunch of passive-aggressive bullshit here that will do nothing to help your marriage. 

As far as I am concerned, you need to get your shit in one sock and stop thinking that practicing Catholicism will cure all your problems. I'm willing to bet you don't really know jack shit about it and are so busy stomping your feet you haven't bothered to see what you're wanting to sign up for. 

Now, little girl, go grow the fuck up and stop trying to wreck your marriage. 

[PennySycamore]

Her husband is still married to his first wife in the eyes of the Church if they had a valid marriage. 

@nausicaa, not all American Anglican churches are aligned with the Anglican Church of Nigeria.  Some are affiliated with the Anglican Church of Tanzania.  They use the current Book of Common Prayer, but they are against gay marriage and women priests (at least what was the Anglican Mission in America was although they weren't against women priests originally.)

[Beermeet]

9 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I have no fucking idea...this is YOUR problem. Now, stop being a little, whiny bitch and grow up. You're pulling a bunch of passive-aggressive bullshit here that will do nothing to help your marriage. 

As far as I am concerned, you need to get your shit in one sock and stop thinking that practicing Catholicism will cure all your problems. I'm willing to bet you don't really know jack shit about it and are so busy stomping your feet you haven't bothered to see what you're wanting to sign up for. 

Now, little girl, go grow the fuck up and stop trying to wreck your marriage. 

That's the most Catholic response yet! 

Minus the cussing, I totally hear my grandmother, aunts, devout friends, nuns and priests I knew, saying that after a couple of these back and forths with the OP.  "Go home, cook some dinner, give of yourself to your family and pray!"  

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, Beermeet said:

That's the most Catholic response yet! 

Minus the cussing, I totally hear my grandmother, aunts, devout friends, nuns and priests I knew, saying that after a couple of these back and forths with the OP.  "Go home, cook some dinner, give of yourself to your family and pray!"  

Believe it or not, I had a nun in high school who could and would cuss a blue streak. She was from somewhere in bumfuck Kentucky and saw the convent as a way to get an education. She was brilliant. She taught at some college for awhile then came to our high school to teach math to a bunch of high schoolers. She was an amazing lady. 

And yeah, I probably need to attempt to rein in my colorful vocabulary but this particular OP has me right pissed off. 

[dharmapunk]

37 minutes ago, llucie said:

OP is not married on the eyes of the church nor is her husband, that is nto how that works. But she shouldnt be getting so much trouble to get communion, i think if that is the case she attends very radical catholic parish.

She is married if she married her husband in a church ceremony in a non-catholic christian church. It is calles ecumenic marriage. If she "only" married him in a civil ceremony she is not, but in that case she would be "living in sin" and in that case she is not supposed to have sex with her husband. Or she can't go to communion unless she stops having a physical relationship with him.

[Georgiana]

Annulments aside, one of the things I think we should mention here is the Catholic position on marriage.  This is how it was taught to me in high school, but if anyone else has anything to add or disagrees, please chime in:

One of the Catholic positions on marriage is a STRONG opposition to the "Culture of Divorce".  Catholics believe that marriage vows, even ones not made in the Church, are serious because making a commitment to another human being is serious.  Catholics (at least nominally) are champions of Human Dignity.  That means that ALL humans deserve to be treated with respect and care.

Catholics believe that the "Culture of Divorce" is one that treats humans as disposable.  Catholics are opposed to the idea that you can just discard a spouse when they become "inconvenient" for you, that you can throw off your vows and promises when they become difficult, that you can cast aside another human being when they need you to sacrifice for them.  That's more than just a Catholic position on marriage, that's a Catholic position on PEOPLE and how you ought to treat others. Because at some time in our lives, we will ALL need the help of others.  We will ALL need others to take a hit for us.  We will ALL go through low times.  And when we falter, when we are weak, when we are not at our best, we DON'T deserve to be abandoned.  We don't.  Because OUR WORTH as a family member, spouse, or person is SO MUCH MORE than that.  

It's a big deal.  It's a huge deal.  It's very much a core tenant of what it means to be Catholic.  

And this concerns me, because this is EXACTLY the attitude you have here @99bottlesofPlexus.  It's one that I struggled with myself on my spiritual journey, but you should know that it's not JUST un-Catholic, most people I know would call it ANTI-Catholic.  Living as a Catholic doesn't start in a Church.  It doesn't start at mass.  It certainly didn't for most of the Saints.  It starts in your heart when you CHOOSE to create in your heart a Catholic attitude of faith and service to others.  Without that, the Sacraments mean nothing.  Because ultimately, the Church and the Sacraments are there to HELP you on your journey of service, but they are NOT a substitute for it.  God isn't counting communions, He's looking at your heart and your life.   

Every relationship will have it's trials.  ALL people will eventually need a hand up on this mountain climb we call life.  When trials happen, do not seek to run from them.  Instead, pray that you may be shown how to SERVE in them.  When darkness comes, pray that God will show you how to be a light for others.  Pray that you may have the strength to treat your husband the way YOU would want to be treated if things were reversed.  Pray for kindness, mercy, compassion.  If you need help, the Prayer of St. Francis is a very famous prayer that I would direct you to.  I find I often say it in my darkest hours, and I hope it will help you the way it has helped me.  It's often set to music, and Sarah McLachlan has a lovely rendition.  Bolding is mine, and I did not just bold for you, this is also the emphasis I personally place in my own heart:

Spoiler

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy. 

O divine Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive, 
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, 
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.

All paths are different.  This may not be a common path to walk, but it may be yours.  Pray that God will give you clarity and peace to walk the path he has chosen for you.  And remember that GOD HIMSELF gave every man free will, so you MUST respect that choice.  Your soul and your spiritual journey are your own, but you must respect the dignity and self-determination of souls NOT your own.  And that includes your husband.  Requiring a person to do something against their own conscience is a BIG DEAL (see: this annulment) and often a sin.  Only God has the authority to work in the hearts of others.  The rest of us can only stand back and respect God's work.

In Genesis, Cain asks the Lord, "Am I my brother's keeper?"  The rest of the Bible can be seen essentially as firm answer to that question: YES.  Always remember: you are here to keep and care for others, not just yourself.  

[ViolaSebastian]

13 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Believe it or not, I had a nun in high school who could and would cuss a blue streak. She was from somewhere in bumfuck Kentucky and saw the convent as a way to get an education.

From Kentucky, can confirm this story checks out 100-fuckin'-percent. 

[99bottlesofPlexus]

39 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I have no fucking idea...this is YOUR problem. Now, stop being a little, whiny bitch and grow up. You're pulling a bunch of passive-aggressive bullshit here that will do nothing to help your marriage. 

As far as I am concerned, you need to get your shit in one sock and stop thinking that practicing Catholicism will cure all your problems. I'm willing to bet you don't really know jack shit about it and are so busy stomping your feet you haven't bothered to see what you're wanting to sign up for. 

Now, little girl, go grow the fuck up and stop trying to wreck your marriage. 

Wow...and I’m awful.

[feministxtian]

@ViolaSebastian She also body slammed basketball players that were a foot taller and quite a bit heavier than she was right into the lockers. In case you haven't noticed, she was one of my favorite teachers. 

[Georgiana]

15 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Believe it or not, I had a nun in high school who could and would cuss a blue streak. She was from somewhere in bumfuck Kentucky and saw the convent as a way to get an education. She was brilliant. She taught at some college for awhile then came to our high school to teach math to a bunch of high schoolers. She was an amazing lady. 

And yeah, I probably need to attempt to rein in my colorful vocabulary but this particular OP has me right pissed off. 

I was taught by a nun who kept a, um, questionable shrine to TOM SELLECK in her supply closet.  I once asked her why Tom Selleck was allowed to wear shorts that were higher than 3 inches from his knee (the dress code rule for girls at my school), and she told me to stop giving cheek.  Those were some SHORT SHORTS though.  

[99bottlesofPlexus]

13 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Annulments aside, one of the things I think we should mention here is the Catholic position on marriage.  This is how it was taught to me in high school, but if anyone else has anything to add or disagrees, please chime in:

One of the Catholic positions on marriage is a STRONG opposition to the "Culture of Divorce".  Catholics believe that marriage vows, even ones not made in the Church, are serious because making a commitment to another human being is serious.  Catholics (at least nominally) are champions of Human Dignity.  That means that ALL humans deserve to be treated with respect and care.

Catholics believe that the "Culture of Divorce" is one that treats humans as disposable.  Catholics are opposed to the idea that you can just discard a spouse when they become "inconvenient" for you, that you can throw off your vows and promises when they become difficult, that you can cast aside another human being when they need you to sacrifice for them.  That's more than just a Catholic position on marriage, that's a Catholic position on PEOPLE and how you ought to treat others. Because at some time in our lives, we will ALL need the help of others.  We will ALL need others to take a hit for us.  We will ALL go through low times.  And when we falter, when we are weak, when we are not at our best, we DON'T deserve to be abandoned.  We don't.  Because OUR WORTH as a family member, spouse, or person is SO MUCH MORE than that.  

It's a big deal.  It's a huge deal.  It's very much a core tenant of what it means to be Catholic.  

And this concerns me, because this is EXACTLY the attitude you have here @99bottlesofPlexus.  It's one that I struggled with myself on my spiritual journey, but you should know that it's not JUST un-Catholic, most people I know would call it ANTI-Catholic.  Living as a Catholic doesn't start in a Church.  It doesn't start at mass.  It certainly didn't for most of the Saints.  It starts in your heart when you CHOOSE to create in your heart a Catholic attitude of faith and service to others.  Without that, the Sacraments mean nothing.  Because ultimately, the Church and the Sacraments are there to HELP you on your journey of service, but they are NOT a substitute for it.  God isn't counting communions, He's looking at your heart and your life.   

Every relationship will have it's trials.  ALL people will eventually need a hand up on this mountain climb we call life.  When trials happen, do not seek to run from them.  Instead, pray that you may be shown how to SERVE in them.  When darkness comes, pray that God will show you how to be a light for others.  Pray that you may have the strength to treat your husband the way YOU would want to be treated if things were reversed.  Pray for kindness, mercy, compassion.  If you need help, the Prayer of St. Francis is a very famous prayer that I would direct you to.  I find I often say it in my darkest hours, and I hope it will help you the way it has helped me.  It's often set to music, and Sarah McLachlan has a lovely rendition.  Bolding is mine, and I did not just bold for you, this is also the emphasis I personally place in my own heart:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy. 

O divine Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive, 
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, 
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.

All paths are different.  This may not be a common path to walk, but it may be yours.  Pray that God will give you clarity and peace to walk the path he has chosen for you.  And remember that GOD HIMSELF gave every man free will, so you MUST respect that choice.  Your soul and your spiritual journey are your own, but you must respect the dignity and self-determination of souls NOT your own.  And that includes your husband.  Requiring a person to do something against their own conscience is a BIG DEAL (see: this annulment) and often a sin.  Only God has the authority to work in the hearts of others.  The rest of us can only stand back and respect God's work.

In Genesis, Cain asks the Lord, "Am I my brother's keeper?"  The rest of the Bible can be seen essentially as firm answer to that question: YES.  Always remember: you are here to keep and care for others, not just yourself.  

Where is his hit he’s taking for me though?

And going to a Protestant Church would go again my conscience.

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Wow...and I’m awful.

What's the matter? Can't handle being told? I got no time for your little games. I never, ever held myself up as any sort of paragon of virtue (which I definitely am not)...I'm just an older woman who's seen quite a bit in her life and calls it like she sees it. Don't like it? Feel free to ignore me, I don't give a fuck. 

1 minute ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Where is his hit he’s taking for me though?

God doesn't do fair. As I'd tell my kids...go check the fairness clause in your life contract. 

 

[Granwych]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 12:11 PM, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Pretty sure the only reason why he doesn’t want to get the annulment is because it’s too much work, not because he actually cares about his first marriage. So, basically, I need to just shut up and put his comfort over mine. That’s what it sounds like.

I think you've made up your mind already.

[feministxtian]

Let's stop feeding the troll...she downvotes every damn post that doesn't say what she wants to hear...

[Georgiana]

5 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Where is his hit he’s taking for me though?

O divine Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love with all my soul

I'm going to repost the prayer of St. Francis.  It's one of the most famous prayers in the Catholic faith.  I don't remember a time when I didn't know it.  It very much encapsulates the core of Catholicism.  If you can't get to a point where you are ready to have this attitude towards others, your heart is not open to Catholicism.  It simply isn't.  

And therefore, the point is moot.

[99bottlesofPlexus]

Just now, Georgiana said:

O divine Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love

I'm going to repost the prayer of St. Francis.  It's one of the most famous prayers in the Catholic faith.  I don't remember a time when I didn't know it.  It very much encapsulates the core of Catholicism.  If you can't get to a point where you are ready to have this attitude towards others, your heart is not open to Catholicism.  It simply isn't.  

And therefore, the point is moot.

But does he have to have this attitude toward me too?

[FakePigtails]

4 minutes ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

Where is his hit he’s taking for me though?

And going to a Protestant Church would go again my conscience.

Maybe it's important to him to go to his church with his family and not have a daughter raised in a multi-religion home, so he's giving that up in all of this. Beyond this specific issue of you going back to Catholicism, if there are actually huge general trends in your marriage of you always giving in to what makes him happiest then that's an entirely separate issue that should be discussed in marriage counseling. That would not be fair to you. Him refusing to pursue an annulment he doesn't want is not unfair to you though.

[Georgiana]

Just now, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

But does he have to have this attitude toward me too?

That's not your concern.  That's GOD's concern.  Leave it to Him, in prayer if necessary.

The only thing you can control is YOUR soul, YOUR spiritual journey, and YOUR attitude towards others.  All else you must give up to God.

[formergothardite]

Just now, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

But does he have to have this attitude toward me too?

Concern yourself with yourself because you can only change yourself. Why don't you ask God to give you peace with the situation no matter the outcome? I don't believe that people are supposed to demand God give them what they want while refusing to accept God might have another plan. 

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Just now, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

But does he have to have this attitude toward me too?

I think you're conflating the issues in your marriage with the issues of theology that Georgiana is talking about. She-- and everyone else-- is saying that you can use this experience as part of your own spiritual development, not that you can take it back to your husband and say "see! I'm right!" I'll be the 200th person in this thread to reiterate that you can only control your own outlook and your own actions. 

I'm not really sure what you're getting out of this discussion right now. We aren't therapists and we aren't priests, I think that's abundantly clear. Go talk to someone with qualifications.

 

[Beermeet]

19 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Annulments aside, one of the things I think we should mention here is the Catholic position on marriage.  This is how it was taught to me in high school, but if anyone else has anything to add or disagrees, please chime in:

One of the Catholic positions on marriage is a STRONG opposition to the "Culture of Divorce".  Catholics believe that marriage vows, even ones not made in the Church, are serious because making a commitment to another human being is serious.  Catholics (at least nominally) are champions of Human Dignity.  That means that ALL humans deserve to be treated with respect and care.

Catholics believe that the "Culture of Divorce" is one that treats humans as disposable.  Catholics are opposed to the idea that you can just discard a spouse when they become "inconvenient" for you, that you can throw off your vows and promises when they become difficult, that you can cast aside another human being when they need you to sacrifice for them.  That's more than just a Catholic position on marriage, that's a Catholic position on PEOPLE and how you ought to treat others. Because at some time in our lives, we will ALL need the help of others.  We will ALL need others to take a hit for us.  We will ALL go through low times.  And when we falter, when we are weak, when we are not at our best, we DON'T deserve to be abandoned.  We don't.  Because OUR WORTH as a family member, spouse, or person is SO MUCH MORE than that.  

It's a big deal.  It's a huge deal.  It's very much a core tenant of what it means to be Catholic.  

And this concerns me, because this is EXACTLY the attitude you have here @99bottlesofPlexus.  It's one that I struggled with myself on my spiritual journey, but you should know that it's not JUST un-Catholic, most people I know would call it ANTI-Catholic.  Living as a Catholic doesn't start in a Church.  It doesn't start at mass.  It certainly didn't for most of the Saints.  It starts in your heart when you CHOOSE to create in your heart a Catholic attitude of faith and service to others.  Without that, the Sacraments mean nothing.  Because ultimately, the Church and the Sacraments are there to HELP you on your journey of service, but they are NOT a substitute for it.  God isn't counting communions, He's looking at your heart and your life.   

Every relationship will have it's trials.  ALL people will eventually need a hand up on this mountain climb we call life.  When trials happen, do not seek to run from them.  Instead, pray that you may be shown how to SERVE in them.  When darkness comes, pray that God will show you how to be a light for others.  Pray that you may have the strength to treat your husband the way YOU would want to be treated if things were reversed.  Pray for kindness, mercy, compassion.  If you need help, the Prayer of St. Francis is a very famous prayer that I would direct you to.  I find I often say it in my darkest hours, and I hope it will help you the way it has helped me.  It's often set to music, and Sarah McLachlan has a lovely rendition.  Bolding is mine, and I did not just bold for you, this is also the emphasis I personally place in my own heart:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy. 

O divine Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive, 
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, 
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.

All paths are different.  This may not be a common path to walk, but it may be yours.  Pray that God will give you clarity and peace to walk the path he has chosen for you.  And remember that GOD HIMSELF gave every man free will, so you MUST respect that choice.  Your soul and your spiritual journey are your own, but you must respect the dignity and self-determination of souls NOT your own.  And that includes your husband.  Requiring a person to do something against their own conscience is a BIG DEAL (see: this annulment) and often a sin.  Only God has the authority to work in the hearts of others.  The rest of us can only stand back and respect God's work.

In Genesis, Cain asks the Lord, "Am I my brother's keeper?"  The rest of the Bible can be seen essentially as firm answer to that question: YES.  Always remember: you are here to keep and care for others, not just yourself.  

That was seriously beautiful and why I can never shake the major Catholic teachings.  Idk if it's indoctrination or just some good rules to live by but, at my core, I stick to them and live by them even if I am not of a Catholic mind or participant any longer and disagree with other teachings.

@99bottlesofPlexus  You don't seem to want to know the truth and options.  You are literally getting a dose of both loving advice and tough love, Catholic style, right now.  You sure you want this?  Your focus is on your husband's past not your faith and family.  

[Georgiana]

Just now, NachosFlandersStyle said:

I think you're conflating the issues in your marriage with the issues of theology that Georgiana is talking about. She-- and everyone else-- is saying that you can use this experience as part of your own spiritual development, not that you can take it back to your husband and say "see! I'm right!" I'll be the 200th person in this thread to reiterate that you can only control your own outlook and your own actions. 

I'm not really sure what you're getting out of this discussion right now. We aren't therapists and we aren't priests, I think that's abundantly clear. Go talk to someone with qualifications.

 

Call me John Fisher because I feel like I'm arguing with Henry VIII in here!

[Alisamer]

Look, you are not the boss of him.

You are the boss of you.

Unfortunately, the two of you are married, and that's going to require compromise. Should he be giving in on things? Sure. Should he go through whatever process is required to get an annulment he doesn't want, by a church he doesn't believe in? No.

If you're always the one giving in all the time, that IS a problem, but it is completely separate from THIS problem. Deal with that problem separately, and stop conflating it with the religion thing - that's a symptom, not the root cause.

Take a little time. Get some therapy, talk this out with a neutral party (alone, first!). The Catholic church has been there for centuries. It'll still be there in a few months. 

Do what YOU can do right now. Go to mass. Get the blessing if not the eucharist. You are Catholic, so be Catholic. Whatever your standing is in the church, you have time. God knows your heart, he doesn't care what the parishes rules say.

You seem to be rushing and pushing right now, during a time that is already full of upheaval in your family. Get some rest. Take some time. Do your research. Take whatever classes you're supposed to take for confirmation or whatever. If this is still a huge problem in 6-12 months, revisit it then.

You are not the boss of him. You are the boss of you.

And don't rule out medication if you need it. It doesn't change who you are, it just helps you be more of the real you. Sez me and my Prozac.