Questions about becoming Catholic

[singsingsing]

I understand that not being able to participate in the Eucharist is a huge deal. But so is getting an annulment. The problem is that you're asking your husband to do something that can apparently be a lengthy, difficult, expensive, and humiliating ordeal (and which may not even be successful), and more importantly, it seems to be something that goes against his conscience. 

I'm not religious. If I were married to someone who was also not religious but he suddenly came to me a few years into the marriage and told me he wanted to recommit to his Catholic faith, he was on board with the beliefs, he wanted to participate in all the different traditions and rituals, etc. etc., I'd say, "Great! Go for it!" BUT:

-You cannot demand that I become Catholic.

-You cannot demand that I attend church or other religious events with you.

-You cannot demand that I stop using birth control and switch to NFP.

-You cannot demand that I lie to our child about things I don't believe in because you want to raise her Catholic.

-You cannot demand that I do anything that would go against my conscience, even if it seems simple to you. Promising to adhere to/believe any Church teaching that I don't agree with goes against my conscience. Promising to raise my child in the Church goes against my conscience.

Invalidating a major part of my past goes against my conscience. I've never been married, but supposing I had and this hypothetical new husband needed me to get an annulment so he could participate in the Eucharist - I would be sympathetic, but of course I wouldn't agree to seek an annulment if it meant attempting to convince the Catholic Church that my previous marriage hadn't been valid, because I would be lying! Isn't lying a sin - sometimes a grave sin? What good is an annulment if one of the parties lied to get it? The Catholic Church may never know, but God would know, and he's the one you have to worry about.

I was once upon a time a Christian. Now I'm non-religious. Let's say I found a wonderful humanist group I wanted to join, but they had some steps you had to go through before being admitted, and one of them was to declare that your previous experience as part of a religion/church was invalid and had in fact never really happened (because God isn't real and you were deluded, or whatever the reasoning). I would NEVER agree to such a thing. The fact that I'm no longer religious and that my experience with the church wasn't all sunshine and roses doesn't invalidate that I had the experience and it was a major part of my life. And being forced to jump through hoops to prove to other people that I was never 'really' religious, I never 'really' believed, my religious experience was never valid for X/Y/Z reason - no way. Never. I can only imagine how much more intrusive, stressful, and potentially humiliating going through that process to invalidate a marriage would be (if someone else is pushing you into it).

[VelociRapture]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I understand that not being able to participate in the Eucharist is a huge deal. But so is getting an annulment. The problem is that you're asking your husband to do something that can apparently be a lengthy, difficult, expensive, and humiliating ordeal (and which may not even be successful), and more importantly, it seems to be something that goes against his conscience. 

I'm not religious. If I were married to someone who was also not religious but he suddenly came to me a few years into the marriage and told me he wanted to recommit to his Catholic faith, he was on board with the beliefs, he wanted to participate in all the different traditions and rituals, etc. etc., I'd say, "Great! Go for it!" BUT:

-You cannot demand that I become Catholic.

-You cannot demand that I attend church or other religious events with you.

-You cannot demand that I stop using birth control and switch to NFP.

-You cannot demand that I lie to our child about things I don't believe in because you want to raise her Catholic.

-You cannot demand that I do anything that would go against my conscience, even if it seems simple to you. Promising to adhere to/believe any Church teaching that I don't agree with goes against my conscience. Promising to raise my child in the Church goes against my conscience.

Invalidating a major part of my past goes against my conscience. I've never been married, but supposing I had and this hypothetical new husband needed me to get an annulment so he could participate in the Eucharist - I would be sympathetic, but of course I wouldn't agree to seek an annulment if it meant attempting to convince that Catholic Church that my previous marriage hadn't been valid, because I would be lying! Isn't lying a sin - sometimes a grave sin? What good is an annulment if one of the parties lied to get it? The Catholic Church may never know, but God would know, and he's the one you have to worry about.

I was once upon a time a Christian. Now I'm non-religious. Let's say I found a wonderful humanist group I wanted to join, but they had some steps you had to go through before being admitted, and one of them was to declare that your previous experience as part of a religion/church was invalid and had in fact never really happened (because God isn't real and you were deluded, or whatever the reasoning). I would NEVER agree to such a thing. The fact that I'm no longer religious and that my experience with the church wasn't all sunshine and roses doesn't invalidate that I had the experience and it was a major part of my life. And being forced to jump through hoops to prove to other people that I was never 'really' religious, I never 'really' believed, my religious experience was never valid for X/Y/Z reason - no way. Never. I can only imagine how much more intrusive, stressful, and potentially humiliating going through that process to invalidate a marriage would be (if someone else is pushing you into it).

Exactly this. What the OP is writing here is absolutely unreasonable. No one has the right to force their views onto anyone else and that’s exactly what she’s trying to do to her husband. If she continues on this path she’ll be like her husband’s own personal Derick Dillard - convinced her way is right, her husband is wrong, and constantly needing to remind him about that via passive aggressive comments.

And I think you pointed out something important we’ve all been trying to get her to understand. It’s fine to grow spiritually and it’s fine to find Faith separately from your spouse or partner - but you can’t just spring all these big changes on your spouse all at once, demand he comply with what you want, disregard his views on the matter entirely, and then act surprised and hurt when he isn’t supportive. The OP created this situation through her actions and inactions. It would have been fairly easy for her to work out a solution to the problem, but I honestly don’t think she wants to at this point. She wants to be pissed off and play the victim to circumstances she helped create.  

(Also, this response to your post too. Because I love this movie and it’s relevant. Lol!)

Spoiler

 

[Lisafer]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

So it wasn't a real apology? Doing passive aggressive shit like that A. isn't showing respect to your husband as an equal partner to you. B. makes it clear you still blame him C. is just going to cause more marriage issues D. is just childish. 

You need to understand that their is no "light" he needs to see. His perspective on this is completely acceptable. There is nothing wrong with it. 

 

 

Thank you for saying that. If I made my feelings clear and somebody said they'd pray for me to see the light, I'd be insulted as hell.

[OhNoNike]

@99bottlesofPlexus - I saw my doc first to get a referral for a therapist (I had no idea where to start). The doc wrote me a prescription for medication.  I have nothing against medicine, but I really wanted to try a therapist first. i took and filled the RX if I neeeded it but fortunately found a therapist.  The first one I saw really sucked and managed to luck into another one (“the one”) by asking a nurse who led a mommy and me class I’d attended.  So if you don’t have luck the first time, I encourage you to follow your gut and try again.

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

28 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

Thank you for saying that. If I made my feelings clear and somebody said they'd pray for me to see the light, I'd be insulted as hell.

I am wondering (if she's on the level) if the RCC's belief that it is the one true church and only it contains the fullness of faith is a part of her thinking.  Updated to allow good, earnestly seeking non-Catholics a way to achieve salvation, but it's still achieved through the church.  It may be hard to compromise on another church if you feel that only that one over there is real.

Likewise, using your conscience...I was taught (and I realize other Catholics have had different experiences) that we are to question and seek and form our own consciences, but that a correctly formed conscience will of course conform to the church's inerrant teaching.

If you truly buy those arguments I can see where it would be frustrating to be told to go somewhere else.  But as many have said, there is absolutely nothing stopping her from attending mass on her own.

[dharmapunk]

1 hour ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

But why? He can change his mind as easily as I can change mine. Plus, how do I force myself to stop wanting to be Catholic and accept the Protestant Church?

Also, why do I have to do all the accepting here? What does he have to do to show he understands my needs?

Hi! first time poster here, so I'm sorry if I do anything wrong. I am from Austria, a country where 70% of the population are Catholic. I find your reaction to be on the extreme side. You were baptized, so you already ARE Catholic. You can still be Catholic if you are married to someone who is not. Many people are. Where I live you would be totally fine going to Eucharist - you are not the one who is divorced. Your husband could not go - but it sounds like he does not want to anyway. So just go to Eucharist if you want to. Leave it up to God to decide if you are worthy to receive his blessing. According to Catholic doctrine everybody is a sinner anyway and God is good and forgiving, - why should he want to withold his blessing because of what your husband did before you married him. That does not even make sense.

[formergothardite]

For those who know more about the RCC's teachings, would a priest encourage her to ruin her marriage in pursuit of the church? Is it better to leave a husband a be a  Catholic in good standing or is it better to stay, try to make things work and not be a Catholic in good standing? 

[ViolaSebastian]

Hey everyone, thank you for suggesting that the OP check out the Episcopal Church in her area--we love visitors and everyone is welcome! The Church has been a support for me through many difficult things in my life, and I treasure the friendships and connections I've made through it. All that said, please be mindful that our Church isn't some 'consolation prize' if someone can't join the Catholic Church for ecclesiastical reasons. Part of what makes our congregation so special is that the people who are there *want* to be there and *want* to participate because that's their *choice* for a Church home. Episcopalianism is a faith in its own right, not just a watered down version of Catholicism that still has all the material and ritual trappings. "Just trying to be happy with Protestantism" is pretty insulting, frankly, because our faith has so many great things to offer people and families.

[Lisafer]

@IntrinsicallyDisordered you may be correct about her thinking. But yeah, the insistence she has on seeing everything as her husband's fault makes me question this whole thing. On the other hand, I have had times with my OCD where I wanted to hear a certain answer, given a certain way, and maybe that's what she's seeking. Also postpartum mental issues can manifest in some really odd ways.

@99bottlesofPlexus, listen to these people who are wisely telling you to get therapy for yourself. They've been patiently trying to help you, but you don't seem to be listening. Nobody wants you to be unhappy, but your happiness should not come at the expense of steamrolling your spouse's past life and spiritual beliefs. 

[Ali]

3 hours ago, 99bottlesofPlexus said:

I actually have a doctor appointment today to discuss my options. I may try therapy if suggested, but also want to make it known that I will not be medicated or talked into giving up my religious convictions.

I am not going to comment on becoming Catholic or the annulment because many already have said what I would say. I am also skeptical and I think any more attempts at reasoning with her is pointless. 

Assuming this is legitimate, I will address the above. I had PPD after my first. I think I had anxiety too. I went on Zoloft and it had a huge impact on my mood and state of mind. I was not in a good place pre-medication and it was not a good time to make any major decisions. I encourage you to seek help. Don't be afraid to try medication. God can use medication to make you better. If your religious conventions can be altered by a little therapy, they are not very strong to begin with.

Please seek out a licensed mental health professional and get some help!

[Beermeet]

39 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

For those who know more about the RCC's teachings, would a priest encourage her to ruin her marriage in pursuit of the church? Is it better to leave a husband a be a  Catholic in good standing or is it better to stay, try to make things work and not be a Catholic in good standing? 

NO.  Always stay married.  I wasn't kidding with the martyr thing!  

Now that I think about it more, this poster may have been baptised but has no clue how this all works.  Doesn't talk like a Catholic.   The priests and nuns are more of a Lori Alexander vibe than divorce to be *more Catholic*  With a child even?  No way. By divorcing you are getting less Catholic to them, stay married and go to mass, be Catholic and raise your children Catholic is what they'd say.  They kind of have to.  It's always been that way.

[church_of_dog]

Assuming this is not a troll, I would suggest two paths @99bottlesofPlexus might follow to try to find a workable solution:

First, have a 100% nonreligious conversation with your husband in which you express your feelings about him not respecting your views or not compromising enough to accomodate your preferences (or whatever is the accurate way to describe that dynamic).  Listen to his reaction.  Have the goal of the conversation be mutual understanding of each other's feelings.

Second, conduct a mental envisioning game.  Imagine that hubby is 100% willing to get an annulment of his earlier marriage and that he properly makes the request.  Now imagine that the requested annulment is denied with no appeal.  Sit with that situation for a while.  Process the emotions that come.  Come to a conclusion about how you would respond if that situation were real.  Consider whether that response might be the right one in real life even without the request for annulment.

Combine these two results.  Mix well.  Allow to sit overnight.  Serve at room temperature.

[dharmapunk]

37 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

For those who know more about the RCC's teachings, would a priest encourage her to ruin her marriage in pursuit of the church? Is it better to leave a husband a be a  Catholic in good standing or is it better to stay, try to make things work and not be a Catholic in good standing? 

Hmm. They won't tell her to get divorced. But she would probabyly not have a problem getting her current marriage annulled. She might find a priest crazy enough to suggest that.

[nausicaa]

21 hours ago, Meggo said:

So - if she is married to someone who is not Catholic and hasn't had his marriage annulled - it would be a sin to take Communion? Even if she confessed and did penance for it? Like it will ALWAYS be a sin?

It's not the marrying someone who is not Catholic that is the continuing sin--it's that since in the eyes of the Catholic Church he may be married to someone else, she is committing adultery. So she can go to confession and confess the sin, but if she goes home to her husband and (presumably) engages in physical affection with him, she just committed the sin again.  There's also the issue of sincere intent when confessing sins. 

It's the same reason my Catholic sister doesn't take Communion now that she lives with her boyfriend. She can confess the sin Saturday evening and be absolved of all past failings in chasteness, but she just goes back home to him, so by Sunday morning she has recommitted the sin. 

[Othello]

Not sure I have good advice, but just wanted to say I feel for both you and your husband here, and can identify with both struggles to a degree. In the years my partner and I have been together, she's drifted a little closer to faith and I've drifted away, to the point where I am not sure if I should begin to consider myself an atheist and have no idea how to have that discussion. People's views change. I also identify with the feeling of disproportionately having to give up one's own happiness or fulfillment for the sake of another's. I was raised (even as a guy, patriarchal religious structures aren't all fun and games for men either) to deny oneself at every opportunity, and I completely understand the weariness and frustration that builds up after bearing that expectation for one's entire life. It's a really difficult question, and while I don't understand the need to dive deeply into Catholicism, from your original post, it sounds like your frustrations are not 100% bullshit. It sounds like you need to prioritize yourself more, and that perhaps your husband needs to meet you in the middle more consistently, or go out of his way on your behalf more often. 

That said, if someone told me they'd be praying I'd see the light, I'd be out. I don't need any more of that in my life; religion has caused me a great deal of pain, and I would not want to raise my child in a path that I know has a high likelihood of fucking them up severely (or at least, from my personal experience). It sounds like there are a lot of hoops to jump through, and while you should be able to follow your beliefs and seek fulfillment and joy where you find them. You are absolutely entitled to and 100% should prioritize your own joy. I've learned this over time. But! That shouldn't be predicated on anyone else's involvement. Life can't work that way—your happiness should never live or die by someone else's decisions. I'd definitely recommend talking to a mental health professional and talking things over, including but not limited to joining the church. At the end of the day, you're important. Your desires and needs are important. So are those of your husband! Compromise is necessary, sure; but if God is who you believe him to be, he values your heart and your efforts to follow him, and if your husband doesn't join the church or follow the ecclesiastical tradition, God does not hold that against you. Only a fucking terrible God would do that, and who'd want to serve that son of a bitch anyway. A good God, the one you want to serve, accepts you and values you. 

[nausicaa]

16 hours ago, llucie said:

And second if your husband is not catholic, he surelly didnt had his previous marriage in a catholic church, then why does he need an anullement? anullement is only required for catholic marriages, if you have only a civil one and then divorce, you can marry in the church since the first marriage for them its like it didnt exist.

American-raised Catholic here and I'm super confused as well and was waiting for someone to bring this up. My understanding was that any marriage not done by a Catholic priest is not considered a "real" marriage anyway in the eyes of the Church, and so remarriage isn't forbidden since there isn't any sacramental promise to "annul."

Since she has said her husband is Methodist, I'm assuming he wasn't married by ta Catholic priest the first time. Therefore they shouldn't need an annulment, right? This is why I thought Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban could get married in the Catholic Church, because her first marriage was never "valid" anyway. 

UPDATE: Just looked it up, and yeah, apparently they do need to get an annulment. My damn culturally Catholic family leads me astray yet again. 

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, dharmapunk said:

Hmm. They won't tell her to get divorced. But she would probabyly not have a problem getting her current marriage annulled. She might find a priest crazy enough to suggest that.

So she might find an extreme priest who implies her best choice is divorce and annulment? That wouldn't go far in convincing her husband that the Catholic church isn't a cult. 

1 minute ago, nausicaa said:

My understanding was that any marriage not done by a Catholic priest is not considered a "real" marriage anyway in the eyes of the Church, and so remarriage isn't forbidden since there isn't any sacramental promise to "annul."

I was wondering this and trying to figure out if there was something I missed. From Google it seemed that as long as his first marriage wasn't a Catholic marriage it shouldn't need to be annulled. 

[nausicaa]

7 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

 Episcopalianism is a faith in its own right, not just a watered down version of Catholicism that still has all the material and ritual trappings. "Just trying to be happy with Protestantism" is pretty insulting, frankly, because our faith has so many great things to offer people and families.

Yes! Also someone mentioned it above but there are a lot of variations between Episcopal churches. Some are more conservative and "smells and bells" and others are much more Hawaiian shirts and guitar music. Sounds like the former would appeal to her more. She could even try an Anglican church, which would be much more conservative. Though I suppose if she truly believes in papal infallibility and the One True Church, that won't work for her. 

And most Episcopalians don't even consider themselves "Protestants," but rather part of "The Middle Way."

[llucie]

2 hours ago, FakePigtails said:

*note to the Europeans: I can attest to it being common for US Catholics to go by the rules for communion she's stated in which remarriage not fully vetted by the church = no communion.

Its a bit absurd that they have so diferent rules depending on the country then. My parents are not married in the church and my mother still gets her communion no problem.

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Yes! Also someone mentioned it above but there are a lot of variations between Episcopal churches. Some are more conservative and "smells and bells" and others are much more Hawaiian shirts and guitar music. Sounds like the former would appeal to her more. She could even try an Anglican church, which would be much more conservative. Though I suppose if she truly believes in papal infallibility and the One True Church, that won't work for her. 

Anglican is Episcopalian, isn't it? I was under the impression that 'Episcopalian' was just the American term for 'Anglican'.

[FundieCentral]

Wait so what I don’t understand: 

was the first marriage between the husband and ex-wife a Catholic marriage that would require annulment? 

Because if the husband never completed the proper Catholic sacrament, there wouldn’t be a problem. 

The Catholic Church also does not condone the breakup of sincere marriages. That’s why priests from other religions who convert also get to stay married. The divorce issue really is a gray area. It is handled on a parish-by-parish issue, in my experience. 

Also, not happy, but people break up relationships because of differences in religion. I am sympathetic to @99bottlesofPlexus here because if this conversion is sincere and earnest it might rock her world and change tons of things. So this is not banal. But regardless, I would wait at least 6 months before making a decision regarding the raising of your daughter, annulments, etc etc. Do your research, and once you're done, just let it sit for 6 months and don't obsess over it or bring it up all the time. Religious callings/conversions can be powerful experiences, but just like falling in love, it’s important to allow the initial fervor to pass in order to make sound decisions. 

[llucie]

Just now, FundieCentral said:

Wait so what I don’t understand: 

was the first marriage between the husband and wife a Catholic marriage that would require annulment? 

Because if the husband never completed the proper Catholic sacrament, there wouldn’t be a problem. 

 

Her husband is not catholic and the marriage was not in the church so he is considered as single and not divorced, and they can get married tomorrow if they want in the church even if he doesnt convert (althought he would have to agree to let his children be raised catholic, and i would undestand that he wouldnt want that).

[nausicaa]

10 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I was wondering this and trying to figure out if there was something I missed. From Google it seemed that as long as his first marriage wasn't a Catholic marriage it shouldn't need to be annulled. 

That's always been my understanding from my Catholic relatives. I'm beginning to wonder if this is a troll. 

Also--on the subject of annulments, I do know three people who have gotten them. I think the Church is making them easier (not that her husband needs to get one if he is uncomfortable with it). One woman had her husband say he would find sex somewhere else if she didn't put out enough (breaking his vow of fidelity) and he then left to move back in with his parents in Argentina (abandonment). Another had their spouse suddenly say they didn't want children after promising they did so beforehand. I don't know the details of the third, but I don't think there was extreme abuse or anything like that. 

6 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Anglican is Episcopalian, isn't it? I was under the impression that 'Episcopalian' was just the American term for 'Anglican'.

Yes and no. The Episcopal Church is the main branch of the Anglican Communion in America, however TEC is much more liberal than the global Anglican Church (especially the more numerous African dioceses). Because of TEC's acceptance of gay marriage (and before that female clergy) there are more conservative American Episcopal churches who have broken away to align themselves under the Church of Nigeria, Anglican Communion. These churches now call themselves "Anglican," use an older prayer book from 1927, do not support gay marriage, and often don't allow for female priests. The services will be very traditional, the congregations very politically conservative, and some seem more Catholic than the Vatican.

[dharmapunk]

6 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

So she might find an extreme priest who implies her best choice is divorce and annulment? That wouldn't go far in convincing her husband that the Catholic church isn't a cult. 

I was wondering this and trying to figure out if there was something I missed. From Google it seemed that as long as his first marriage wasn't a Catholic marriage it shouldn't need to be annulled. 

Struggling with my English here, but I'll try to explain: The thing you missed is that the Catholic church does recognize a marriage to a Protestant as a marriage. The two churches do recognize some of each other's sacraments. Like if you were baptized in the Protestant faith and wanted to join the Catholic church, you would just have to fill out a form in the parish office. You would not need to get baptized again. So my guess is that the OP IS married in the eyes of the church.

[llucie]

1 minute ago, dharmapunk said:

Struggling with my English here, but I'll try to explain: The thing you missed is that the Catholic church does recognize a marriage to a Protestant as a marriage. The two churches do recognize some of each other's sacraments. Like if you were baptized in the Protestant faith and wanted to join the Catholic church, you would just have to fill out a form in the parish office. You would not need to get baptized again. So my guess is that the OP IS married in the eyes of the church.

OP is not married on the eyes of the church nor is her husband, that is nto how that works. But she shouldnt be getting so much trouble to get communion, i think if that is the case she attends very radical catholic parish.