Seewalds 31: Jessa’s Maybe-Baby

[SapphireSlytherin]

@QuiverFullofBooks - they lived in Illinois, and the two families that chose them were in Pennsylvania and Missouri.

[Four is Enough]

11 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Well, maybe because it’s incredibly unfair to the prospective adoptive parents, who have to wait for years if they don’t win the popularity contest.

This has always, always always been the case for couples who want a white infant. Period. In the "old" system, people went from the bottom of the list to the top, and it took years.

7 hours ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

But seriously. Imagine what it’s like to be a birthmom choosing a family for her baby. After the choice to relinquish her child, the choice of who that baby should go to will probably be the most difficult one she ever makes. It’s not a popularity contest. It’s about choosing the people that she thinks would make the best family for that little one.

If you or someone you love is waiting to become a parent, I hope that happens soon. ♥️

Bolding mine. Mr. Four and I were chosen twice by birth families who decided we'd be a good fit for their baby. We've striven to be that good fit, to keep them informed, and to be good parents to the children, our One and Two. One's birth mother did convey some of her reasoning and how difficult it was to make a choice. In the end, even though Mr. Four and I were older (37) when ONE was born, the birth parents got along with us, liked us personally, and felt that we had similar tastes and beliefs... I guess it has worked because One's birth parents have come to his graduations, and will come to his graduate school graduation soon.

2 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

Keep in mind that many adoptive parents are older, established professionals, often in the upper and upper middle classes like lawyers, dentists, professors, etc. I know if I was putting up my newborn for adoption I'd hitch my star to them instead of two uneducated, unemployed 20-year-olds living in a 2 bedroom tiny house in the middle of nowhere, Arkansas, who could easily have 15 more kids that your baby will have to parent. Thanks, but no thanks.

People think this, but it's generally not completely true. Infertility doesn't "hit" professionals solely. Hopefully, a good home study will weed out the "I wanna adopt babeez for Jesus" crowd from the "I want to be a parent to a child" crowd.

58 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I appreciate that you you showed some concern instead of just downvoting me. I think that the traditional system, where birth parents got some input (religion, etc.), but didn’t make the decision, worked just fine. We decided not to go down the adoption path largely because we were over 40 by the time it was clear that fertility treatments might not work for us, and a friend who works in adoption told me that the birth parents are young and they would not choose us, so we would be wasting our time and money. 

First of all, the "old system" didn't really work fine, and was rife with crime. Baby selling, "want a redhead I got your redhead right here", baby stealing, bumping people to the front of the line for an added fee, etc.

Our social worker told us that they didn't like to place INFANTS with couples in which there was a 40 year age gap between infant and parent. HOWEVER, when we adopted Three and Four, we were appproaching 50, and we had young children in the home, in the guise of One and Two. Older children are still available, Three and Four were 6 and 7.

The friend who works in adoption isn't completely honest. When we were trying to adopt, we spoke to birth mothers in their late 20s and even in their 30s.

@QuiverFullofBooks, I am sorry your adoption journey hasn't done very well. I wish it were different for you.

[Rachel333]

2 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think that the traditional system, where birth parents got some input (religion, etc.), but didn’t make the decision, worked just fine.

I completely disagree. I think parents should be able to choose what happens to their child. It seems really cruel and paternalistic to tell a woman she can't choose which family adopts her baby. It must be very hard for parents who have no idea where their children will be going, like a lot of parents whose children are adopted internationally.

That said, I really am sorry so many people who would make great parents have such a difficult time becoming parents.

[VelociRapture]

@QuiverFullofBooksI was confused by your original post, so I want to thank you for taking time to explain why you wrote what you did. I truly am sorry for your experience and struggle to start a family. I’m also sorry to the other couples and families out there who struggle to adopt or start families as well.

That said, I do (very respectfully) disagree with you. The birth parents are the parents until all the legalities are taken care of. That means they (or the mother if the father isn’t involved) have the right to decide who gets to adopt the child. It’s one of the very few gifts a birth parent is able to give their child before they (legally) aren’t their child anymore. Not every birth parent is going to want a lot of details about which family their child is raised in and that’s ok, but I think it’d be somewhat cruel to deny that option to those who do want it.

[Ivycoveredtower]

on the will Jessa and Ben be chosen by a birth mother if they go the adoption route topic. I am going with yes. I think there are plenty of young mother's out there who are probably fans of the duggars and have rose colored glasses on to what their life style really is and would give chose them if given the chance. also like someone else mentioned if a fundy daughter did find herself in trouble I could see them handing off the baby to someone like Ben and Jessa keep the child in the religion but save a bit of face for the mother. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

1 hour ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

on the will Jessa and Ben be chosen by a birth mother if they go the adoption route topic. I am going with yes. I think there are plenty of young mother's out there who are probably fans of the duggars and have rose colored glasses on to what their life style really is and would give chose them if given the chance. also like someone else mentioned if a fundy daughter did find herself in trouble I could see them handing off the baby to someone like Ben and Jessa keep the child in the religion but save a bit of face for the mother. 

I agree.  My worry with this scenario is that the young birth mother *is* in their circle and either 'sins' or is raped.  She'll be forced to carry the baby to term *and* give it up, whether she wants to or not, and the birth father/rapist will go about his business as usual.  I'm not sure Benessa would fully appreciate the turmoil the young birth mother would be going through and the sacrifice it took for them to catch someone else's baby.  

[Jellybean]

I think there are probably as many different preferred characteristics of adoptive parents as there are people making those choices. Some people might think Ben and Jessa have lots of points in their favour; others may be less impressed.

Consider what we thought about the various Duggar children and what they would be like as parents - I’ve been surprised by lots of things, and we had quite a lot of information about them and their circumstances.

Choosing adoptive parents for one’s child must be an incredibly hard decision to make, and there’s no way to guarantee that things will be perfect for any particular child, much as everyone would hope for a good outcome. Adoption always involves trauma - children separated from their birth parents - there’s no covering up that fact. It might be better for everyone involved, and hopefully children are protected from further harm, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy.

[Jkaeekjj]

Hi, everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster. 

I am a birth mother, so I wanted to offer the group my perspective. 

I got pregnant at 17. Raised Catholic. My parents sent me to Catholics Social Services for “counseling”. My counseling consisted of me being told for months on end how horrible my life and my child’s life would be if I kept her. My parents were told to not let me live at home if I wanted to keep the baby. I was told that I would be living in poverty with no way to give my child the life she deserved. I still remember sitting in front of that counselor, finally breaking down and agreeing to adoption. I remember crying and telling her that i didn’t want to give up my baby. And she told me I had to if I really loved her. 

After I gave birth, I went into a total panic. I looked at my daughter and thought how horrible I was. That little baby didn’t know I was about to leave her. How could I do this? My counselor told my parent to “stay firm” and continue with the plan to not let me come home with her. My parents would not have done that, but the damage was done. I wasn’t what she needed (in my mind), so I left the hospital without her. And in leaving her, I left a vital part of me. I left the hospital a completely different person. 

I chose her parents. I got 3 files to choose from. I know their first names, their professions and read a letter from them. I even got to meet them afterwards, before the adoption was finalized. However, I was promised pictures every couple of months for the first year and then yearly afterwards. The last picture I got was when she was 9 months old. They said they never agreed to that. And there as nothing I could do.

I went on to do everything I was supposed to do. I graduated from college, got married, have 6 kids and a successful career. I own 2 homes and provide a comfortable life for my family. I did reach out to my daughter when she was 21, through the agency. Her parents were generous enough to send me more pictures of her growing up, for which I am so grateful. She is beautiful. But she is not interested in contact, and I respect that. I made my decision, and she has the right to make her own.

I guess the point of this post is to let everyone who isn’t involved in adoption become more aware of how complicated it all is, and how much coercing is inherent in the system. Just because you are young and “undereducated” doesn’t necessarily mean you aren’t fit to parent, and young women you get pregnant unexpectedly shouldn’t be made to feel that way. There are lasting implications for everyone involved.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[Glasgowghirl]

I think if they still want to adopt they have a good chance of being chosen and not just from people who are fundie or christian. If they do I hope they are not on TV doing it because it will be awkward for both parties involved. Cate and Tyler from Teen Mom have had issues with Carly's adoptive parents stemming from the show, strangers have approached them and started speaking to Carly, they don't allow her or her brothers faces to be shown on TV or pictures showing her face on social media to limit this now.

Plus the birth mother would have to see on TV the child being raised by someone else that would be horrible for the birth mother. 

[Jellybean]

Glad you’ve broken your lurkdom @Jkaeekjj! 

Thank you for sharing your perspective on adoption. The coercion and pressure and emotional manipulation you describe is completely heartbreaking. I’m so sorry. 

[Four is Enough]

1 hour ago, Jkaeekjj said:

I am a birth mother, so I wanted to offer the group my perspective

I guess the point of this post is to let everyone who isn’t involved in adoption become more aware of how complicated it all is, and how much coercing is inherent in the system. Just because you are young and “undereducated” doesn’t necessarily mean you aren’t fit to parent, and young women you get pregnant unexpectedly shouldn’t be made to feel that way. There are lasting implications for everyone involved.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

Oh, Jkaeekjj, I listened to so many birth mothers telling me their stories, and I want you to know, you're not alone in the agony. I used to think that "a young girl" wasn't fit to be a mother, and I've learned over and over since that such an idea just isn't true across the board.

I want you to  know that I've prayed in gratitude for our birth families every day since our kids have come to us, and I pray for their intentions to be fulfilled... I've always tried to say  positive things about our birth families, so that if our children eventually (and they all did)met them they'd have a positive attitude toward them, Their decision was beyond difficult, and to me, it was heroic.

There is pain and there is trauma associated with adoption, and my kids are no exception. One of mine had a very difficult time feeling "thrown away"... and both the birth mother and I tried to help assuage that feeling, but it had to be worked through.

I have never had anything but gratitude and love for our kids' birth families, and I want you to know that. I will pray for your sorrow. 

Adoptive families struggle, too.. take the photos for example. Do I send photos of him crying, because he's so cute when he cries, or will the birth mother take that as making fun of the child?

Do I send photos of celebrations? Those point out the fact that she's not with the child.

Do I send photos of school life? If the child wears a uniform, will the birth mother try to go to the school? Will she think we're "putting on airs" if it's a private school uniform?

I remember one trip we took.. One's birth mother got married. (not to his birth father) We were invited to the party, and went. One's birth mother's uncle cornered me, very polite, and asked me pointed questions, until finally he came out with "and how are you attached to (birth mother) I turned the tables on him and said, "how are YOU?" and he said, "I'm her uncle". so I replied, "then you're One's Great UNcle">.. he was very surprised that I was so open about it, but the more people who love my children, the better, in my humble opinion.

Tl;dr @Jkaeekjj I love and admire you for your decision, but I am sorry that it was coerced and that your parents were coerced right along with you. You are a very special woman, and you have blessed another family.

[Jkaeekjj]

48 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

 

Tl;dr @Jkaeekjj I love and admire you for your decision, but I am sorry that it was coerced and that your parents were coerced right along with you. You are a very special woman, and you have blessed another family.

Thank you, Four is Enough. I’m at peace with my decision. I went through a difficult time a few years ago, when I really started to listen to other people’s stories. It makes me twitch when people say “Just adopt”, as if it’s equivalent to buying a new car. It never is and never will be a perfect situation for all the parties involved. We just need to do the best we can for the adoptee, who is the only one who didn’t have a choice in the situation. 

Thank you for the kindness and support you have given to your children and their birth parents. I applaud your wisdom and compassion, and hope that others in the adoption triad can learn from your example. 

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, Jkaeekjj said:

My counseling consisted of me being told for months on end how horrible my life and my child’s life would be if I kept her. My parents were told to not let me live at home if I wanted to keep the baby. I was told that I would be living in poverty with no way to give my child the life she deserved. I still remember sitting in front of that counselor, finally breaking down and agreeing to adoption. I remember crying and telling her that i didn’t want to give up my baby. And she told me I had to if I really loved her. 

Ugh, I hate how common this story is for young birth mothers. Adoption agencies can be so manipulative. I'm so sorry you were lied to and manipulated like that.

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I think if they still want to adopt they have a good chance of being chosen and not just from people who are fundie or christian. If they do I hope they are not on TV doing it because it will be awkward for both parties involved. Cate and Tyler from Teen Mom have had issues with Carly's adoptive parents stemming from the show, strangers have approached them and started speaking to Carly, they don't allow her or her brothers faces to be shown on TV or pictures showing her face on social media to limit this now.

Plus the birth mother would have to see on TV the child being raised by someone else that would be horrible for the birth mother. 

Cate and Tyler's problem seems to be they don't respect Carly's parents especially Tyler and still want to act like Carly is their daughter to make decisions for and that they have some right to Carly that they don't. 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

@Jkaeekjj Thank you so much for sharing your story. I was adopted at birth and have had some contact with my birth mother as an adult. I’m grateful she was not coerced as you were, but it was heartbreaking to hear how difficult the decision was for her. She married, but could never bring herself to have more children (a sort of self-punishment). And I have been the pregnant 17-year-old. Thankfully, my immediate decision to keep the baby was almost never challenged, and I’m in tears imagining what you went through. Internet hugs to you, fellow mama ♥️  

[Glasgowghirl]

8 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Cate and Tyler's problem seems to be they don't respect Carly's parents especially Tyler and still want to act like Carly is their daughter to make decisions for and that they have some right to Carly that they don't. 

Tyler was is an asshole for not respecting them and posting the pictures anyway, they both forget at times that they have no rights anymore. They made a hard choice but given what has happened since and how horrible April and Butch were to live with it was the best choice.

[Kittikatz]

So many people don't seem to get how complicated adoption is, big hugs to all the birth and adoptive mums who have shared your stories and experiences. 

I think it's so important that birth moms get to make a choice about the family their child is going to. I recently had an interaction with a prospective adoptive mother that just made my blood boil. She was complaining that putting together a portfolio for "stupid" birth mothers to look through was "too much work" and it "wasn't fair" that she had to spend so much time on it. I asked what it involved and it sounded like a picture book about her and her husband and their lives. I could not get over the disrespectful way she talked about birth mothers, and while I'm sure that doing something like a portfolio isn't easy, it seems like a small thing compared to the work and love that goes into carrying a baby to term, delivering it and giving it to someone else to raise. I wouldn't normally ever say this, but I hope she and her husband aren't chosen - at least not until they grow some compassion and empathy.

[Four is Enough]

@Kittikatz, I was appalled by a family who deliberately went to Latin America to adopt, specifically because "we don't want any birth families showing up on our doorstep, ever"...

We've had interesting times with our kids' birth families. Not all good, but some, fantastic! I'm for one happy that we picked open adoption~

[KelseyAnn]

Sometimes closed adoptions are best, and when the adoptive mom demands 'no contact' as part of the deal it's usually for the best. One of my older cousins adopted a baby with the implicit promise/demand that there would be no contact as the birth mother was drug addicted and had already lost parental rights to all her other children. 

Well, we live in a tiny town and things like no contact are hard to enforce when everybody knows everybody. Birth mom found where my cousin lived with 'her' baby and began trying to leave gifts of piss-stained clothes for her daughter. 

Now, can you imagine if this ordeal had been open-contact in the first place? How much more liberties would that woman have taken? 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

@Kittikatz, I was appalled by a family who deliberately went to Latin America to adopt, specifically because "we don't want any birth families showing up on our doorstep, ever"...

Sadly that seems to be a not uncommon reason for choosing international adoption. I really wonder what it's like for those kids when their adoptive parents have such an obvious distaste for their origins.

[Jkaeekjj]

48 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Sadly that seems to be a not uncommon reason for choosing international adoption. I really wonder what it's like for those kids when their adoptive parents have such an obvious distaste for their origins.

I don’t know if it’s a distaste for their origins, more so than a desire for the child to be fully theirs without outside “competition”. I can’t imagine what it would be like to deal with fertility problems and struggle with the realization of not giving birth to a biological child. I also can’t imagine the challenges an adoptive parent faces in an open adoption situation. Like Four Is Enough mentioned above, how much do you share? Is it too little? Too much? How will the birth parents react? Will they want more? Will my child be hurt by any of our actions? It takes strong, compassionate people across the adoption spectrum to make open adoption work. It’s a huge risk, but one with many rewards when done right. So I can’t judge people that hold that sentiment too harshly. At the very least, there needs to be more education and counseling for all parties considering adoption on the challenges and realities of open adoption.  

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, KelseyAnn said:

Well, we live in a tiny town and things like no contact are hard to enforce when everybody knows everybody. Birth mom found where my cousin lived with 'her' baby and began trying to leave gifts of piss-stained clothes for her daughter. 

Now, can you imagine if this ordeal had been open-contact in the first place? How much more liberties would that woman have taken? 

I think if your rights have been terminated and the birth parents have made no effort to improve themselves then they do not deserve any contact with the child. 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Jkaeekjj said:

I don’t know if it’s a distaste for their origins, more so than a desire for the child to be fully theirs without outside “competition”. I can’t imagine what it would be like to deal with fertility problems and struggle with the realization of not giving birth to a biological child.

Oh, I totally believe that those attitudes don't necessarily come from a bad place, but they can still have negative effects because, adoptive parents' wishes aside, adopted children do come with their own histories and I can't imagine it would be healthy for a kid to have their parents openly resent their origins. (Now, it's another issue if parents have private difficulties with the idea of their children having other parents but make an effort not to expose their children to those insecurities.)

I believe most adoptive parents mean well, but the adoption industry still causes a lot of suffering, from the coercion of young mothers by domestic adoption agencies to the outright child trafficking that has been reported in many other countries Western people are adopting from. I do sympathize with the pain of someone who wanted biological children but cannot have them, but their pain is no excuse for acting entitled to other people's children.

To be clear, that's not a general indictment of people who become parents through adoption. There are a lot of wonderful adoptive parents and they're also often the ones most concerned with adoption ethics. There are definitely situations where adoption is the best outcome. There is just also a very ugly side to the adoption industry, and all the people who mean well but are willing to overlook ethical issues in their desperation to become parents are a huge part of the problem.

[JordynDarby5]

Or fear that the birth mother will show up and want the baby back. They might feel that the further away the birth mother is the less likely she'll change her mind and show up take the baby back. Or that sending pictures or allowing them any part in the child's life she will change her minds and decide to take their baby back.   

On 3/10/2018 at 7:38 AM, Four is Enough said:

Oh, Jkaeekjj, I listened to so many birth mothers telling me their stories, and I want you to know, you're not alone in the agony. I used to think that "a young girl" wasn't fit to be a mother, and I've learned over and over since that such an idea just isn't true across the board.

I want you to  know that I've prayed in gratitude for our birth families every day since our kids have come to us, and I pray for their intentions to be fulfilled... I've always tried to say  positive things about our birth families, so that if our children eventually (and they all did)met them they'd have a positive attitude toward them, Their decision was beyond difficult, and to me, it was heroic.

There is pain and there is trauma associated with adoption, and my kids are no exception. One of mine had a very difficult time feeling "thrown away"... and both the birth mother and I tried to help assuage that feeling, but it had to be worked through.

I have never had anything but gratitude and love for our kids' birth families, and I want you to know that. I will pray for your sorrow. 

Adoptive families struggle, too.. take the photos for example. Do I send photos of him crying, because he's so cute when he cries, or will the birth mother take that as making fun of the child?

Do I send photos of celebrations? Those point out the fact that she's not with the child.

Do I send photos of school life? If the child wears a uniform, will the birth mother try to go to the school? Will she think we're "putting on airs" if it's a private school uniform?

I remember one trip we took.. One's birth mother got married. (not to his birth father) We were invited to the party, and went. One's birth mother's uncle cornered me, very polite, and asked me pointed questions, until finally he came out with "and how are you attached to (birth mother) I turned the tables on him and said, "how are YOU?" and he said, "I'm her uncle". so I replied, "then you're One's Great UNcle">.. he was very surprised that I was so open about it, but the more people who love my children, the better, in my humble opinion.

Tl;dr @Jkaeekjj I love and admire you for your decision, but I am sorry that it was coerced and that your parents were coerced right along with you. You are a very special woman, and you have blessed another family.

This amazes me. I am really impressed by your story. I have always heard that it would be a bad idea to have any contact with the birth mother or families. Fear of the birth mother or family would change their minds at some point. I've never heard any positive side like yours before. Or that the children don't end up mixed up or confused or it would be a lot harder for the child to have adoptive parents and birth parents in his or her life.  I'm really amazed by it. I want to thank you for sharing your story.    

[Jkaeekjj]

9 minutes ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Or fear that the birth mother will show up and want the baby back. They might feel that the further away the birth mother is the less likely she'll change her mind and show up take the baby back. Or that sending pictures or allowing them any part in the child's life she will change her minds and decide to take their baby back.   

Well, it is the birth mothers baby until rights have been terminated. It is not “their baby” until a court of law says so, and even then, the reality is that the baby has 2 sets of parents.  Anyone who doesn’t take the time to understand that fundamental fact should not adopt. It’s not about ownership of another human being. It’s about being given the opportunity to raise a child. An opportunity is not a right. 

The birth mother should be given every opportunity to make an informed decision and change her mind, if she so chooses. Keeping the birth mother far away and not giving her pictures of her child in order to “get” a child is an abuse of power and privilege. 

I think about my daughter every day. Not in a painful way, but she’s there. Being far away and not seeing pictures of her doesn’t mean I will ever forget her.