Burka eating today

[Mommy22alyns]

Ah, that's a niqab, not a burqa. Still all-covering but much better for being able to see. Here's a good comparison between different styles:

And a more detailed one from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

ETA: From what I understand the coverings are just put on when leaving the house or in the home if non-family are visiting.

Thank you for this info.

[bananacat]

Bananacat, I don't perceive Nurse Nell as saying those things at all. She pointed out a truth - that in those countries, any religion is illegal if it isn't the official state religion.

I know exactly what she said because I've heard it all before. But why do people insist on making this point like it's relevant? Why does it matter when other countries do things wrong? It's basically saying that it's ok to do something wrong because at least it's not as bad as someone else. It's really a bad argument to make and not justification to act any way you want.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

When we were in Italy (Venice, to be exact) we saw a lot of niqab garbed women. What blew me mind is that these women were also carrying around expensive designer glasses and purses and you'd occasionally come across a diamond-studded niqab.

I still have a hard time separating personal modesty with monetary modesty.

--

Also, I've seen first hand what cooking in a chador can do. We have a small chador-wearing population and I worked in the ER for the tri-state burn unit. The worst part is that a lot of these women would wait days to come in with often extensive second and third degree burns. And, of course, they can't disrobe in front of any man (including the doc) -- and the women were often just as aggressive in asserting that as their men were. They don't understand our medical system and why the nurses can't treat them. We can't find a translator that speaks their particular dialect for a language. Very frustrating for everyone all around.

[keeperrox]

But what if they think all those modern modest clothes aren't really modest? Sunni said that she wears a nijab to guard her modesty and because she believes the Quaran says she must dress that way. How would that be any different than frumper wearing fundies saying that frumpers are the only thing that is Bible approved modest? Frumpers I would think would draw less attention than a nijab. How is saying the Quaran says women must be covered exept for their eyes any different or less oppressing than saying the Bible says women must wear frumpers?

There is no way I will be convinced that something other than a frumper will never fit into a fundamentalist's definition of modesty. Nowhere in the bible does it say that women must wear prairie style dresses of calico fabric, or shapeless denim frocks with 2-inch straps and solid a t-shirt underneath.

Plus, I've never heard a fundie woman say that frumpers are the only modest style of dress. Skirts only? Yes. No arms showing? Yes. Nothing showing below the collar bone? Sure. Just because they choose to dress in an outdated style (quite possibly because that's all they can find at Goodwill - although clibbyjo could teach them a thing or two about shopping there - or because that's all that is in their sewing repertoire), doesn't mean that frumpers are the only choice that will cover them from the collarbone to the wrists up top and to the ankles on the bottom without hugging their curves.

If a fundie woman came here, gave her definition of modest clothing, and asked us to find her some options, we could put together an entire new wardrobe without a frumper in the collection.

If a Muslim woman came here and asked us to find her something that would keep her covered from head to toe, but still have her eyes exposed, we could find her stores that sold nijabs.

[Prek teach]

I am of the opinion that we should dress the way we do based upon our personal choices. If one feels headcoverings are what is important to them, then do it. If one feels that skirts to the ground is important to them, then do it. If a person wants to wear frumpers, then do it. We all make choices as adults as to what we wear, and within reason those choices be they religious or not should be respected.

[formergothardite]

There is no way I will be convinced that something other than a frumper will never fit into a fundamentalist's definition of modesty. Nowhere in the bible does it say that women must wear prairie style dresses of calico fabric, or shapeless denim frocks with 2-inch straps and solid a t-shirt underneath.

Plus, I've never heard a fundie woman say that frumpers are the only modest style of dress. Skirts only? Yes. No arms showing? Yes. Nothing showing below the collar bone? Sure. Just because they choose to dress in an outdated style (quite possibly because that's all they can find at Goodwill - although clibbyjo could teach them a thing or two about shopping there - or because that's all that is in their sewing repertoire), doesn't mean that frumpers are the only choice that will cover them from the collarbone to the wrists up top and to the ankles on the bottom without hugging their curves.

If a fundie woman came here, gave her definition of modest clothing, and asked us to find her some options, we could put together an entire new wardrobe without a frumper in the collection.

If a Muslim woman came here and asked us to find her something that would keep her covered from head to toe, but still have her eyes exposed, we could find her stores that sold nijabs.

I do know fundies who are against skirts because he shows the waist.

Taking out the frumper and replacing it with women must wear long, flowing dresses that reveal nothing of their form, is there any difference between Sunni saying she must wear a nijab for modesty because she translates the Quaran as saying that and a Christian fundie coming here and saying that they must always wear long, loose dresses because they translate the Bible to say that and they must guard their modesty? Not in a could we pick out various outfits for them way, but in a what Sunni said is comparable to what many Christian fundies say way. Because when you get down to it, both people are saying women must dress in certain ways to protect their modesty because of religious reasons.

[doe]

I think a difference in definition of the word 'modesty' where Muslim women and Christian frumper women are concerned is that modesty for Muslim women is about not showing certain parts of their body, face, hair and for a frumper woman, it's about not showing those same things AND dressing not of this world.

Whenever I have seen women who wear hijabs, they are always nicely dressed, with cute pants peeping under their tunics, cute shoes, fancy handbag, and very nice, but obvious make up. Frumper women often have no make up, pinned up or covered hair, and either do the denim skirt routine, or wear the calico or denim frumpers.

I realize I'm saying all this in a simplistic way, but this is what I have gathered from observation and reading online from women of both faiths. Also, I know this does not speak for all Muslim and Christian women.

ETA: This was not directed at you, FormerGothardite, and I totally get the question you are asking.

[keeperrox]

I do know fundies who are against skirts because he shows the waist.

That's all well and good, but there are still dress options that are.not. frumpers for those people. My whole point is, and has been from the beginning, that there are other options for frumper wearers, but there are not for nijab wearers. Whether or not I agree with the reason the woman is wearing either.

Taking out the frumper and replacing it with women must wear long, flowing dresses that reveal nothing of their form, is there any difference between Sunni saying she must wear a nijab for modesty because she translates the Quaran as saying that and a Christian fundie coming here and saying that they must always wear long, loose dresses because they translate the Bible to say that and they must guard their modesty? Not in a could we pick out various outfits for them way, but in a what Sunni said is comparable to what many Christian fundies say way. Because when you get down to it, both people are saying women must dress in certain ways to protect their modesty because of religious reasons.

Maybe here is where the confusion lies. I wasn't really referring to what Sunni said. I was speaking generally. I don't really care if fundies wear frumpers; I also don't have a problem commenting that they are ugly and out of fashion. I do have a problem with people saying that there is absolutely no reason for a Muslim woman to wear a nijab when clearly, for some women, there is.

[anniebgood]

When I worked for the blue shirt agency we had numerous women come through the checkpoint dressed in niqab and burqas. They were sent to secondary screening, taken to a private room and they were asked to remove their head covering so their faces matched their ID's. If they did not do this they weren't allowed to fly. Most of them were wearing jeans or slacks. We saw very few women in skirts or dresses under their burqas.

My daughter had a Muslim friend in middle school and high school. She wore the hijab from 6th grade on. She also wore sweatpants and a sweat shirt for PE class, rather than the shorts the school required. She is a smart and funny young lady who is now in college.

[NurseNell]

She also wore sweatpants and a sweat shirt for PE class, rather than the shorts the school required. She is a smart and funny young lady who is now in college.

Some of our schools have had to allow for separate swim times for Muslim girls. They can swim with non-Muslim girls but not with any males. Normally swimming is co-ed.

Nell

[formergothardite]

That's all well and good, but there are still dress options that are.not. frumpers for those people. My whole point is, and has been from the beginning, that there are other options for frumper wearers, but there are not for nijab wearers. Whether or not I agree with the reason the woman is wearing either.

Maybe here is where the confusion lies. I wasn't really referring to what Sunni said. I was speaking generally. I don't really care if fundies wear frumpers; I also don't have a problem commenting that they are ugly and out of fashion. I do have a problem with people saying that there is absolutely no reason for a Muslim woman to wear a nijab when clearly, for some women, there is.

I probably shouldn't have used frumper as an example of fundie dress and just stuck to long, flowing dresses. I had quoted Sunni earlier where she stated why she dressed the way she did, and I just found it a weird that she basically used the exact same reasoning almost all of the Christians fundies who have come here and discussed modesty and why they dress as they do, yet no one seemed to really question her like we do Christian fundies. I am just curious if people see a difference between the two because I don't.

[demgirl]

@formergothardite: I don't see a big difference between the two rationales, to be honest.

[Prek teach]

But honestly does their HAVE to be a biblical/religious rationale as to how one dresses? Afterall, we were all born naked. I prefer underwire bras b/c they are more comfortable and offer the support I prefer. The bible doesn't approach this subject, does it? I wear Spanx under my clothing because I prefer the tightness and it makes me feel better about myself. I wear 3-5 inch heels b/c I'm only 5'2 and I prefer to feel taller. I don't wear wool close to my skin b/c it makes me itchy. I wear shorts and tees in the summer b/c I don't like to feel hot. I do not like baggy jeans b/c they can be chafey. I prefer my jeans to be tight. I wear a skirted bottom as a bathing suit b/c it makes me feel more comfortable and covered. I wear tee's under my clothes in the winter b/c I don't like drafts against my skin. And I do all of this based upon what I want to wear, what I feel comfortable wearing, and the mood I'm in. I don't wear clothes because the bible may/may not approve of them. I do it for me. Call me selfish, immodest, or unbiblical or whatever.

[library_youth]

I live in an area with a large Muslim population and I've helped many niqab-wearing women who come into my workplace. When they talk to me they pull the veil down from their mouth so their voices aren't muffled. I wondered if that was considered OK because I'm a woman and if they would not pull it down to talk to a man.

I also see hijab-wearing women daily, but I've never seen someone in a full burqa.

[LilMissMetaphor]

but everything else is pretty easy alhumdulilah.

What?

[JesusFightClub]

One major difference is that Sunnichick is not advocating everyone, be they Muslim or not, wear the niqab. Fundies of the frumper variety don't seem to be able to draw a meaningful distinction between "my personal religious conviction" and "what everyone else should be doing" . Which is why you get angst ridden rants in fundie blogs about unfeminine women, judgemental rants about a girl in church having the temerity to wear a too-short skirt, and people like fishwithtrish shaming other women who she doesn't know in the slightest by complaining to them about their tops being too low or shorts too high.

Of course I am not saying all Muslim women are innocent of this, but I have never been told yet by a niqab wearing woman that I am a slut or pretending to be a man, they might think that but they don't say it. Indeed have marched next to women in niqab on demos and we magically managed to avoid mutual fashion criticism.

I do admit like many on this thread to find the niqab somewhat unsettling (though I don't understand not wanting to be served by a shop assistant wearing a niqab). The more I think about it I think it is to do with the cultural implications of a face covering, not a fear of Islam or a racist feeling. Like I said I know of hood wearing and covering the lower face on demos, and also I grew up seeing images of the struggle in Northern Ireland with gunmen clad in balaclavas to obscure all but eyes and mouth. So when I see it I have two thoughts, the main one is "They are trying to hide their identity" and secondly "They want to look intimidating". Even though these are not the motivations for niqab it is sort of like a knee jerk reaction.

[JesusFightClub]

What?

I know that one, she said "praises to God". Like thanking him for something good happening. (Is that right, sunnichick?)

[NurseNell]

But honestly does their HAVE to be a biblical/religious rationale as to how one dresses?

THERE does not need to be a biblical or religious rational as to how women wear THEIR dresses. ;)

Nell

[LilMissMetaphor]

I know that one, she said "praises to God". Like thanking him for something good happening. (Is that right, sunnichick?)

Ah. Annoying. Shades of Lina and her baruch-hashemming.

[Prek teach]

@library youth: I think that is okay because when I had parents that wore chadors or hijabs in public, when I visited their homes they never covered up, but wore regular (western) clothing. They also met with me without their husbands present on these occaisions. Most likely it was because I am female. The thing with me though is that I am a lip reader. Though I am a hearing person, I focus on the lips when people speak to me. When a person speaks with an accent I am especially focused on their lips when they talk. I cannot stand it when my DH speaks speaks to me with a hand over his mouth. Drives me crazy, and he's an English speaker as am I. Something about me but I must see the mouth.

[FakePigtails]

I think a difference in definition of the word 'modesty' where Muslim women and Christian frumper women are concerned is that modesty for Muslim women is about not showing certain parts of their body, face, hair and for a frumper woman, it's about not showing those same things AND dressing not of this world.

Whenever I have seen women who wear hijabs, they are always nicely dressed, with cute pants peeping under their tunics, cute shoes, fancy handbag, and very nice, but obvious make up. Frumper women often have no make up, pinned up or covered hair, and either do the denim skirt routine, or wear the calico or denim frumpers.

I realize I'm saying all this in a simplistic way, but this is what I have gathered from observation and reading online from women of both faiths. Also, I know this does not speak for all Muslim and Christian women.

ETA: This was not directed at you, FormerGothardite, and I totally get the question you are asking.

Expanding on this, the fundies we focus on believe in wearing the frumpy/modest clothing ALL the time. Vanity is BAD! In contrast, the Muslim standards of modesty we're discussing here only apply to being out in public or around non-family. Under the coverings in public and uncovered in private, pretty much any form of modern not-necessarily-modest clothing is perfectly fine, hair and makeup can be all done up, etc. If wearing a covering that doesn't cover everything, clothing and makeup can be stylish and flattering.

[formergothardite]

One major difference is that Sunnichick is not advocating everyone, be they Muslim or not, wear the niqab. Fundies of the frumper variety don't seem to be able to draw a meaningful distinction between "my personal religious conviction" and "what everyone else should be doing" . Which is why you get angst ridden rants in fundie blogs about unfeminine women, judgemental rants about a girl in church having the temerity to wear a too-short skirt, and people like fishwithtrish shaming other women who she doesn't know in the slightest by complaining to them about their tops being too low or shorts too high.

Of course I am not saying all Muslim women are innocent of this, but I have never been told yet by a niqab wearing woman that I am a slut or pretending to be a man, they might think that but they don't say it. Indeed have marched next to women in niqab on demos and we magically managed to avoid mutual fashion criticism.

I do admit like many on this thread to find the niqab somewhat unsettling (though I don't understand not wanting to be served by a shop assistant wearing a niqab). The more I think about it I think it is to do with the cultural implications of a face covering, not a fear of Islam or a racist feeling. Like I said I know of hood wearing and covering the lower face on demos, and also I grew up seeing images of the struggle in Northern Ireland with gunmen clad in balaclavas to obscure all but eyes and mouth. So when I see it I have two thoughts, the main one is "They are trying to hide their identity" and secondly "They want to look intimidating". Even though these are not the motivations for niqab it is sort of like a knee jerk reaction.

Sunni said that the Quaran required Muslim women to dress in the nijab. When Kristina came here she said the Bible required Christian women to dress in long flowing skirts or dresses. Kristina even admitted in a round about way that Christians who wore pants weren't sinning, they just weren't interpretting the Bible correctly. It would be interesting to find out if Sunni feel that Muslim women who dress differently than her are not interpretting the Quaran correctly, because that was the impression I got since she said she believed it was a requirement.

[JesusFightClub]

Ah. Annoying. Shades of Lina and her baruch-hashemming.

Interesting comparison. I don't see it in precisely the same way, but I don't know if I can explain why not (and I hope Sunnichick would like to come back and clarify.)

Lina is making a big show of her religious beliefs, strange mishmash as they are, and wants to be seen as kind of cool and different. So she sticks in about 15 codewords per para just like anyone who is newly enticed to a movement and is 20 yo. But using alhamdullilah (sp) is like when FaustianSlip, pomology and other posters talk about Jewish beliefs using Hebrew words. They aren't kidding on they are something they are not, but using the natural word to describe a belief or an action.

I reference politics much easier than religion and so I end up using jargon (and often edit before posting because of this) so I do agree it can be difficult. But what jars with me is fakery. Faustian Slip and sunnichick are not using alien terms to them. Lina kind of is.

Random example...we had Palestinian comrades over to visit a friend of mine (long story). Their English was very good but they used "inshallah" (as God wills) frequently while speaking in English. They couldn't find a comfortable English translation and it was difficult to break from the habit.

TL;DR, Lina is showing off, but most people aren't.

[Witsec1]

formergothardite, i don't see a big difference either between Sunnichick's and Kristina's stated rationale for clothing choice. They probably even share the same roots culturally (3 monotheistic religions, from roughly the same part of the world, each with a male identified god with lots of rules for how women should dress and wear their hair.. Coincidence? I don't think so.) I don't really care if either one feels that they have the "correct" interpretation of their holy book. I think their attitudes both represent an attitude toward women's sexuality that I wish would just go away.

The differences that I see

-In my experience, most Muslim families don't want to restrict their daughter's education or employment.

-I don't read or hear a lot from USian Muslim women criticizing what those heathen sluts are wearing. Probably there are some, I just don't know. They are more worried about getting harrassed or yelled at than criticizing other women, a lot of the time.

[Boogalou]

THERE does not need to be a biblical or religious rational as to how women wear THEIR dresses. ;)

Nell

Just curious, but is there a reason you sign every single one of your posts?