Burka eating today

[treemom]

My experience with American Muslims wearing a Chador, Hijab or Niquab is that the feel very much it is there choice. They don't seem to have the all or nothing view of it that many fundamentalist Christians who dress ubermodestly have. It is there thing, but whether you don't do it does not impact whether you are good person or muslim. I also don't get a sense that the American women I know who are muslim feel bullied or bully their daughters into it.

I am sure Muslim women exist who have a different view but that is why these things dont bother me in my personal life.

And tradition in some countries is that black = married. But it is simply tradition, not a requirement legal or otherwise in the non-Saudi sorts of countries.

[LilMissMetaphor]

well first, some people are immigrant and english does not necessarily let them express what they feel.

And then arabic is a very important language for islam. Usually muslims or muslim authorities like that you learn arabic to read the Qu'ran... Those words have some strength... you can also always google them ;)

Thanks, but my father is an immigrant, I taught ESL overseas for 8 years, and I married a non-English speaker--I think I may have a tiny handle on the struggles of expressing yourself in English. I love languages. I speak several. That said, I don't stick phrases from them, religious or not, in the midst of my conversations here or anywhere else. 'Cause it's, like, the vervelendst thing ever.

Now, sure you could argue that English is a conglomeration and blah blah--who doesn't know that? Look. "Kosher" has been part of our lovely polyglottic lexicon for long enough that it doesn't need parenthetic explanation, but "alhumdulilah"? Not quite as common, yes? I'm thinking that's not just me since Google (per your instructions) brings up 4x the results for kosher as it does for the other.

[Witsec1]

Eh, well, maybe I'm just an uptight purist...

It's an hypothesis with a great deal of explanatory power.

[LilMissMetaphor]

It's an hypothesis with a great deal of explanatory power.

I think so too. Truth be told, I like to label myself first, before anyone else gets there. It's a self-defense mechanism (I have plenty, all honed from an early age) which has excellent potential for diverting the conversation. Besides, self-awareness is the first step to healing, or something.

[NurseNell]

A Muslim woman here in MN refused to stand in the courtroom when the judge entered. She said she's not standing for anyone but Allah. Well, she was handcuffed and arrested. She is on trial for funneling money to terrorists. She's a naturalized U.S. citizen. Somehow our naturalization process needs to weed out those who still intend on doing us harm. She was covered except for her face.

[demgirl]

Never mind.

[emmiedahl]

Pretty much. All three of the Abrahamic religions have very similar dress requirements. Over time these have evolved, and with the addition of regional styles, what we have now is the result. If you were to go back to the advent of Islam and take a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew then they would all be dressed pretty similarly.

Middle Eastern people did not wear as a rule the niqab and such. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the salwar kameez type thing with a cap for men and a headscarf for women is traditional in many areas, regardless of the religion.

The Prophet Mohammed mandated that his own wives be completely veiled because they were causing scandals and gossip in various ways. It came later in his life; his earlier wives came and went, wearing normal attire for the time and place. The veiling and seclusion was a way to keep the wives from causing gossip and undermining the religious message. From what I have read, it was not a mandate for all Muslim women. His wife Aisha once pointed out that his revelations were mighty convenient; for instance, he fell in love with his adopted son's wife. Out of respect, the son divorced her so Mohammed could have her as a wife. People began to gossip because you are forbidden to marry your son's wife. Mohammed than had a revelation that adoptions are not valid, therefore he was breaking no rules. The prohibition on adoption is a belief that persists to this day. I kind of like Aisha; a child bride who consummated the marriage at age 9, she was no shrinking violet and was known for having quite the spirit.

I read this in a book that I read for a paper on another book on Islamic women. I can dig up the names if anyone wants them. The paper is on how Islamic the restrictions on women really are.

[Sola]

Middle Eastern people did not wear as a rule the niqab and such. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the salwar kameez type thing with a cap for men and a headscarf for women is traditional in many areas, regardless of the religion.

The Prophet Mohammed mandated that his own wives be completely veiled because they were causing scandals and gossip in various ways. It came later in his life; his earlier wives came and went, wearing normal attire for the time and place. The veiling and seclusion was a way to keep the wives from causing gossip and undermining the religious message. From what I have read, it was not a mandate for all Muslim women. His wife Aisha once pointed out that his revelations were mighty convenient; for instance, he fell in love with his adopted son's wife. Out of respect, the son divorced her so Mohammed could have her as a wife. People began to gossip because you are forbidden to marry your son's wife. Mohammed than had a revelation that adoptions are not valid, therefore he was breaking no rules. The prohibition on adoption is a belief that persists to this day. I kind of like Aisha; a child bride who consummated the marriage at age 9, she was no shrinking violet and was known for having quite the spirit.

I read this in a book that I read for a paper on another book on Islamic women. I can dig up the names if anyone wants them. The paper is on how Islamic the restrictions on women really are.

I've head something similar in my studies too. If you have the name of the book I'd be interested.

@Nell

A Muslim woman here in MN refused to stand in the courtroom when the judge entered. She said she's not standing for anyone but Allah. Well, she was handcuffed and arrested. She is on trial for funneling money to terrorists. She's a naturalized U.S. citizen. Somehow our naturalization process needs to weed out those who still intend on doing us harm. She was covered except for her face.

Just wondering how you would go about that? Was this woman associated with terrorists before her naturalisation or afterwards? If it was afterwards, how would you weed out people like her?

[MonkeyMomma]

A Muslim woman here in MN refused to stand in the courtroom when the judge entered. She said she's not standing for anyone but Allah. Well, she was handcuffed and arrested. She is on trial for funneling money to terrorists. She's a naturalized U.S. citizen. Somehow our naturalization process needs to weed out those who still intend on doing us harm. She was covered except for her face.

My initial response is going to come out wrong, so I'll just ask, what are you trying to say with this?

[NurseNell]

Just wondering how you would go about that? Was this woman associated with terrorists before her naturaliZation or afterwards? If it was afterwards, how would you weed out people like her?

Perhaps it will come out in the trial, the news story didn't have enough info. You're right if it didn't start til after she was naturalized.

[Guest Anonymous]

A Muslim woman here in MN refused to stand in the courtroom when the judge entered. She said she's not standing for anyone but Allah. Well, she was handcuffed and arrested. She is on trial for funneling money to terrorists. She's a naturalized U.S. citizen. Somehow our naturalization process needs to weed out those who still intend on doing us harm. She was covered except for her face.

JFC.

There have been far more instances of terrorism in the U.S. by Christians who blow up or shoot up abortion clinics and mosques than by Muslims. How are we going to weed out the Christians that mean us harm?

[NurseNell]

My initial response is going to come out wrong, so I'll just ask, what are you trying to say with this?

It's a news story. While we've had several male terrorists here, including one of the 9/11 terrorists, females haven't had as much involvement. Her picture was predominant on TV news today. What actually made me post it here was her refusal to stand for anyone but Allah. And we've been discussing similar stories and experiences here.

[emmiedahl]

The books on Islamic women in general was called Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women. The assigned book was Guests of the Sheik. There are a few others that I read and returned because they did not have the info I needed.

I took a Gender in Culture class just because I like to read and this prof uses literature instead of textbooks. An excuse to read without guilt over what I should be doing instead! So reading about gender is a big part of my life right now.

[NurseNell]

The books on Islamic women in general was called Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women. excuse to read without guilt over what I should be doing instead! So reading about gender is a big part of my life right now.

That was an excellent book! The author is Geraldine Brooks. I just read her book Caleb's Crossing, about the first white settlers on Martha's Vineyard, and Caleb, the first Indian to attend Harvard. It is based on actual people but was fiction. I've got her March to read, the story of the absent father from Little Women. Her book The People of The Book is supposed to be very good also. It's a fictional history of the Sarajevo Haggadah, an important Jewish book that originated in fifteenth-century Spain.

[MonkeyMomma]

It's a news story. While we've had several male terrorists here, including one of the 9/11 terrorists, females haven't had as much involvement. Her picture was predominant on TV news today. What actually made me post it here was her refusal to stand for anyone but Allah. And we've been discussing similar stories and experiences here.

Well, erm, okay. But since we're talking about the dress of certain Muslim women and you pointed out that she wore what sounds like a chador or typical Somali dress (since you're in Minnesota), it seemed like you were saying that her dress was indicative of her status as someone who supports terrorists. Which makes my feelers tingly because when I lived in Minnesota was when I worked with immigrant women, many who were Muslim, many who were seeking permanent legal status or citizenship in the US. And many who dressed in a manner that identified them as Muslim. And the implication that they, therefore, are more likely to be terrorists really riles me up.

Which also makes me feel the need to point out that the man who came to Madison with the intention of shooting up a family planning clinic was white, Christian, and dressed like your average white American dude.

Edited because homophones are hard.

[keeperrox]

A Muslim woman here in MN refused to stand in the courtroom when the judge entered. She said she's not standing for anyone but Allah. Well, she was handcuffed and arrested. She is on trial for funneling money to terrorists. She's a naturalized U.S. citizen. Somehow our naturalization process needs to weed out those who still intend on doing us harm. She was covered except for her face.

Jesus fucking Christ, will you please stop trying to justify your hatred of Muslims? Niqab wearer =/= Terrorist.

[justlurking]

the minute she got on the plane to go to university in the US she stopped wearing the required head scarf and trench coat-like overgarment (I can't remember what they called it).

I believe you may be referring to the "manteau" (montoe). (Oddly enough, I decided to re-read my well worn copy of "Not Without My Daughter" so her description of the clothing is fresh in my memory)

[emmiedahl]

I think that religious extremists in general are more likely to be terrorists because many feel that their religion supercedes the normal rules of morality. That is a dangerous thing. Not just Islam, but Christianity as well. At the same time, wearing a headscarf does not make you extreme. I do it a lot just because I am too lazy to wash my hair every day and it gets oily.

[CanadianHippie]

I think that religious extremists in general are more likely to be terrorists because many feel that their religion supercedes the normal rules of morality. That is a dangerous thing. Not just Islam, but Christianity as well. At the same time, wearing a headscarf does not make you extreme. I do it a lot just because I am too lazy to wash my hair every day and it gets oily.

Lord knows I've been known to cover when I haven't had to wash my hair too, or I'm having a bad hair day, or just want to keep my hair out of my face. And I'm an agnostic.

[NurseNell]

discussing similar stories and experiences here.

Well, erm, okay. But since we're talking about the dress of certain Muslim women and you pointed out that she wore what sounds like a chador or typical Somali dress (since you're in Minnesota), it seemed like you were saying that her dress was indicative of her status as someone who supports terrorists. Which makes my feelers tingly because when I lived in Minnesota was when I worked with immigrant women, many who were Muslim, many who were seeking permanent legal status or citizenship in the US. And many who dressed in a manor that identified them as Muslim. And the implication that they, therefore, are more likely to be terrorists really riles me up.

Which also makes me feel the need to point out that the man who came to Madison with the intention of shooting up a family planning clinic was white, Christian, and dressed like your average white American dude.

[NurseNell]

Jesus fucking Christ, will you please stop trying to justify your hatred of Muslims? Nijab wearer =/= Terrorist.

No, it's actions that make one a terrorist. And she's been accused, which in this country means innocent until proven guilty. It was her refusal to stand for the judge that got her back in the news.

I don't hate Muslims. You appear to hate Christians given your language about Jesus Christ.

[keeperrox]

No, it's actions that make one a terrorist. And she's been accused, which in this country means innocent until proven guilty. It was her refusal to stand for the judge that got her back in the news.

I don't hate Muslims. You appear to hate Christians given your language about Jesus Christ.

You were the one to add the comment at the end that she was covered from head to toe except for her eyes. You could have left that off, but you chose not to. You have tried, again and again, to justify your original comments, but they are bullshit, plain and simple, and your hatred seethes through every subsequent comment you've made.

And saying Jesus fucking Christ doesn't mean I hate Christians. It just means I have a foul mouth. Good try, trying to turn it around on me though.

[NurseNell]

but they are bullshit, plain and simple, and your hatred seethes through every subsequent comment you've made.

And saying Jesus fucking Christ doesn't mean I hate Christians. It just means I have a foul mouth. Good try, trying to turn it around on me though.

I could care less what you, a stranger think about me. I don't know you and likely never will. My BFF is Muslim as are her husband and kids.

Yes, you do have a foul mouth.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Middle Eastern people did not wear as a rule the niqab and such. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the salwar kameez type thing with a cap for men and a headscarf for women is traditional in many areas, regardless of the religion.

The Prophet Mohammed mandated that his own wives be completely veiled because they were causing scandals and gossip in various ways. It came later in his life; his earlier wives came and went, wearing normal attire for the time and place. The veiling and seclusion was a way to keep the wives from causing gossip and undermining the religious message. From what I have read, it was not a mandate for all Muslim women. His wife Aisha once pointed out that his revelations were mighty convenient; for instance, he fell in love with his adopted son's wife. Out of respect, the son divorced her so Mohammed could have her as a wife. People began to gossip because you are forbidden to marry your son's wife. Mohammed than had a revelation that adoptions are not valid, therefore he was breaking no rules. The prohibition on adoption is a belief that persists to this day. I kind of like Aisha; a child bride who consummated the marriage at age 9, she was no shrinking violet and was known for having quite the spirit.

I read this in a book that I read for a paper on another book on Islamic women. I can dig up the names if anyone wants them. The paper is on how Islamic the restrictions on women really are.

I'd love the titles, I'm interested in reading more about this as I have a friend who recently converted

[emmiedahl]

I posted them earlier. There is a lot of interesting stuff at my library on Muslim women, outside of the the two books I read for my paper. There were several that I read and did not need, so I returned them already.