Burka eating today

[NurseNell]

That's not always true. I work in a department store and when I went to the job interview, I was wearing a niqab, and I still am wearing the niqab while working and interacting with customers on a daily basis and I actually have been told that I am one of the best employees there. Niqab does not cut you off from careers.

This is a fairly recent job then? Because not too long ago you posted "When I wasn't even wearing the hijab I was told that I needed to wear it. Now that I'm in niqab most of the time, I'm told that I'm too extreme OR told that I can't only wear it sometimes, I need to either wear it or not. SHUT THE HECK UP AND LET ME FOLLOW ISLAM IN THE WAY I AM MOST COMFORTABLE! You want me to wear niqab all the time? Fine. Then you'd better find me a job that will allow it. Until you find me that job, SHUT THE HECK UP."

We have a large Muslim population. It's common to see women wearing hijabs but haven't seen any yet in a niqab.

And yes, no one's work should be judged by what they wear but should be based on performance.

Nell

edited to correct spelling.

[Sunnichick31]

Yea it is fairly recent, I started working there about a month ago.

[demgirl]

I didn't say it cut you off from all careers -- just many. Offhand, I think a niqab-wearning woman would have a difficult time breaking into professions such as doctor, nurse, lawyer, teacher (at least in public schools), anything that involved manual labor such as working at a factory or carpentry or anything like that, any job that required a uniform (such as police officer, military, etc.), psychologist (b/c of the body language and facial cues), occupational or recreational therapist. For the record, I'm not trying to pick a fight about this -- you believe you are doing what your religion requires of you, and I'm sure you've put a lot of thought and study into making that choice. I respect your right to make that choice and I'm sure it's not always easy to follow your convictions. But I honestly believe these garments send a dangerous message about the value of women and inherently restrict our gender's options in life, and after reading much of the Quran, I don't believe that it requires the niqab or the burka or anything similar. You obviously disagree and you have to live your life in a manner that you believe conforms to what your God wants and expects of you. I just have a different perspective. But I am glad you found a job!

[NurseNell]

Yea it is fairly recent, I started working there about a month ago.

That's good, especially in today's economy.

Nell

[Katiebug]

Hijabs and Chadors are one thing -- they show the wearer's allegiance to and belief in a religious principle. The niqab and burka are different -- they completely take away the reality that the person wearing them is human. They deny that person the ability to show emotion, to communicate through body language, and to be seen as an individual. Taken to the extreme, they are also dangerous. Women are often killed because of their restricted vision in these garments in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

To me, a chador or hijab is basically like wearing a Star of David necklace, or choosing to only wear skirts, whereas the niqab and burka are a means of denying women their basic personhood. I have trouble having conversations with women in niqabs - I can't pick up on their non-verbal cues, I can't assess their reactions to what I'm saying and I feel very cutoff from them. I also think that if you're committed to dressing in that manner, you are also cut off from many future career options.

Women in niqabs and burkas don't scare me. I just feel sorry for them, because either they are forced to do it by their husbands or their country leaders, or because they feel that's what the Quran says is required, and I don't believe the Quran says that at all. If a woman chooses to wear one of these garments, that is their choice. I wouldn't take that away from them, but I don't understand it.

Agreed on all counts. Burkas and niquabs don't scare me, but they do cut everyone off from an important part of social discourse, which is non-verbal facial expressions. When speaking to a woman in such apparel you feel like you're talking to a robot. Don't take this personally, Sunnichick31, but if an employee in niqab was attempting to help me or wait on me in a store I'd politely decline or shop elsewhere. I refuse to be complicit in condoning a practice that I believe demeans women. It's your right to wear it thanks to our concept of freedom of religion but I personally find it an oppressive practice.

One of my colleagues is a hijabi. She is from the Middle East and is a devout Muslim. She also has a PhD in an engineering field and is known worldwide for her work in our field. Her hijabs are beautiful colors and patterns and she coordinates them with her clothes (some of the fabrics are simply stunning). I've never had any sort of issues in communicating with her, nor have any of our colleagues. I often see women in hijab at the mall or supermarket and think nothing of it. As demgirl said, I think that hair covering like a hijab is roughly analogous to a Jewish man wearing a kippah or a Catholic openly wearing a crucifix or a saint medal.

[debrand]

As I said before, I like hijabs. They're often beautiful. Heck, I wish sometimes that I could wear one.

I would let a woman wearing a burqa or a niqab wait on me. I not go out of my way to avoid her. But I do find it unnerving that I can't see someone's facial expression. That doesn't mean that I dislike the person or think that they can't be wonderful, loving individuals.

People should be allowed to wear what they want. I would not support a government ban on women wearing these types of clothing and I would be outraged if one was put into place. At the same time, I understand that some jobs-like the military and fire fighters- could not have members that wear loose, flowing outfits.

I try not to make assumptions about people, although I admit, I fall short in this area.

Sunnichick, thanks for answering questions. Is there a modified burqa or niqab for women who want to engage in activities where a loose, flowing garment might hinder them?

[Sunnichick31]

Sunnichick, thanks for answering questions. Is there a modified burqa or niqab for women who want to engage in activities where a loose, flowing garment might hinder them?

It depends on a persons comfort level. Personally, if I'm at the gym or something, I'm OK with wearing sweatpants and a super long (like down to mid-shin level) tunic instead of my regular abayas (long gowns) with a smaller niqab and hijab, but then I also have friends who would not be comfortable doing that.

[debrand]

It depends on a persons comfort level. Personally, if I'm at the gym or something, I'm OK with wearing sweatpants and a super long (like down to mid-shin level) tunic instead of my regular abayas (long gowns) with a smaller niqab and hijab, but then I also have friends who would not be comfortable doing that.

Among Christian fundamentalists, mothers holding jobs are frowned upon. Is the same true of Muslims? It appears that western Muslim women can hold any job that they wish.

Does the Muslim concept of modesty differ from the Christian fundamentalist concept of modesty?

[Sunnichick31]

Muslim women can hold jobs if we choose to. I only know a couple women who don't work, most of the women I know have jobs and enjoy working.

Muslim women are supposed to dress modestly, but we can still look nice (no frumpers needed!!).

[bananacat]

Yep, freedom of religion, unknown in many Muslim countries. Try practicing Christianity or Judaism in Saudia Arabia, you'll end up in prison and possibly killed. I'm glad we have freedom of religion, it doesn't mean I'm not free to feel uncomfortable by those in niqab. Were I in a place where wearing niqabs is commonplace I doubt I'd feel uncomfortable. But in a place where 99.999 % of people aren't wearing them, and you don't expect to see them, and suddenly you are surrounded by several, which is what happened to me, I was uncomfortable.

Nell

So horrible places don't have religious freedom, and you want to be more like them? Do you realize how childish this sounds? "No, you can't have religious freedom here until you have it everywhere!" At least, I hope it's immature petulance that makes you say that, and not some kind of sick admiration. We should strive to be better than those places.

[MonkeyMomma]

As I said before, I like hijabs. They're often beautiful. Heck, I wish sometimes that I could wear one.

I would let a woman wearing a burqa or a niqab wait on me. I not go out of my way to avoid her. But I do find it unnerving that I can't see someone's facial expression. That doesn't mean that I dislike the person or think that they can't be wonderful, loving individuals.

People should be allowed to wear what they want. I would not support a government ban on women wearing these types of clothing and I would be outraged if one was put into place. At the same time, I understand that some jobs-like the military and fire fighters- could not have members that wear loose, flowing outfits.

I try not to make assumptions about people, although I admit, I fall short in this area.

Sunnichick, thanks for answering questions. Is there a modified burqa or niqab for women who want to engage in activities where a loose, flowing garment might hinder them?

And thanks debrand for putting this so nicely. I get kind of hotheaded around this issue - not sure why. I've worked in residential settings with immigrant Muslim women, done a smidge of travel in the Middle East. It's hard for me to articulate, but there's something that just sets me off when people make assumptions about Muslim women based on how they dress.

Back to the original post, the first time I saw a woman eating while wearing a niqab, I admit to a moment of gawking followed by a "Well, duh, MonkeyMomma" moment.

[NurseNell]

Among Christian fundamentalists, mothers holding jobs are frowned upon. Is the same true of Muslims? It appears that western Muslim women can hold any job that they wish.

We have a large Muslim immigrant community, mostly people from Somalia. Many of the women work. Many are also going to college. We are starting to see a few in teaching and nursing.

Nell

[Witsec1]

I agree with what demgirl and others have said about niqab/burka vs. hijab. Niqab and burka erase the wearer's identity and cut her off from normal human activities. But so do high heels, control top panty hose, and certain hair styles. In a lot of ways hijab+tunic+loose pants is a very sensible way to dress, less restrictive than what passes for professional clothing in some occupations.

[NurseNell]

As I said before, I like hijabs. They're often beautiful. Heck, I wish sometimes that I could wear one.

People should be allowed to wear what they want. I would not support a government ban on women wearing these types of clothing and I would be outraged if one was put into place. At the same time, I understand that some jobs-like the military and fire fighters- could not have members that wear loose, flowing outfits.

I like hijabs too. I also like the longer tunic tops that some wear. I've thought of getting some.

I would not support a government ban either. I think this has happened in France. I do think face covering needs to be removed for drivers' license pictures. I know this was an issue somewhere. A photo with the face covered really doesn't identify anyone.

The other clothing I like are Indian saris, they are beautiful.

Nell

[formergothardite]

So is wearing the nijab comparable to Christians who say the Bible says women should wear long, flowing dresses/skirts because doing otherwise is not modest? Like, I'm not seeing a big difference between the two mindsets, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

[MamaJunebug]

So horrible places don't have religious freedom, and you want to be more like them? Do you realize how childish this sounds? "No, you can't have religious freedom here until you have it everywhere!" At least, I hope it's immature petulance that makes you say that, and not some kind of sick admiration. We should strive to be better than those places.

Bananacat, I don't perceive Nurse Nell as saying those things at all. She pointed out a truth - that in those countries, any religion is illegal if it isn't the official state religion. She also defends her right to feel uncomfortable when suddenly surrounded by figures that are unrecognizable past their all-encompassing yards of fabric in a setting where such is not the norm.

Tolerance of, and coexistence with religions that are not those of the majority population -- those are very precious things and not to be taken lightly.

I know, bananacat, that you are not taking them likely. But I felt the need to remind us all of that. Freedom, tolerance and coexistence are not "givens" in this world.

Sadly, neither is ...

peace.

Also, FloraPoste, you write that full head-to-toe coverings "erase the wearer's identity and cut her off from normal human activities But so do high heels, control top panty hose, and certain hair styles."

I'm guessing you don't mean the heels, hose and hairstyles erase a woman's identity; they may alter it to turn her into a crabby person who's uncomfortable because of some of her apparel .... but the identity remains. Yes? ;)

[NurseNell]

So horrible places don't have religious freedom, and you want to be more like them? Do you realize how childish this sounds? "No, you can't have religious freedom here until you have it everywhere!" At least, I hope it's immature petulance that makes you say that, and not some kind of sick admiration. We should strive to be better than those places.

I just found one time when I was walking in a mall and I was suddenly surrounded by a group of people wearing all black with just eyes showing disconcerting. Of course they should be able to wear what they want.

As the only Catholic in my class through 12 years of school I think I know more about what it feels to be excluded than most folks. I have no admiration for places that don't allow religious freedom.

On another note, I find it ironic that the Muslim immigrant community in Ireland has petitioned the government to stop the playing of the Angelus bells. Can you imagine a Christian community in Saudia Arabia petitioning to have the call to prayer stopped? Wouldn't happen. Here there are Muslim taxi drivers who refused to carry any passenger carrying alcohol in their luggage or bags. This was at the airport. The outcome was that any driver not willing to drive any sober passenger no longer had an airport assignment. We also have Muslim clerks who refuse to ring up pork products at the grocery store. I don't buy pork but it isn't illegal here and people should be able to buy pork.

I'm beginning to be sorry I ever posted about my experience at the mall.

Nell

[Witsec1]

Also, FloraPoste, you write that full head-to-toe coverings "erase the wearer's identity and cut her off from normal human activities But so do high heels, control top panty hose, and certain hair styles."

I'm guessing you don't mean the heels, hose and hairstyles erase a woman's identity; they may alter it to turn her into a crabby person who's uncomfortable because of some of her apparel .... but the identity remains. Yes? ;)

Oh, yes, communication fail. I need my coffee. I meant high heels, etc, restrict activity and can be unsafe, like burka/niqab. You can still communicate normally with others, using all channels when wearing high heels and restrictive undergarments, though probably a bit crabbier than normal ;)

Botox injections, that freeze the facial muscles, might be more akin to a niqab in erasing identity.

[Witsec1]

On another note, I find it ironic that the Muslim immigrant community in Ireland has petitioned the government to stop the playing of the Angelus bells. Can you imagine a Christian community in Saudia Arabia petitioning to have the call to prayer stopped? Wouldn't happen. Here there are Muslim taxi drivers who refused to carry any passenger carrying alcohol in their luggage or bags. This was at the airport. The outcome was that any driver not willing to drive any sober passenger no longer had an airport assignment. We also have Muslim clerks who refuse to ring up pork products at the grocery store. I don't buy pork but it isn't illegal here and people should be able to buy pork.

I'm beginning to be sorry I ever posted about my experience at the mall.

Nell

Citation needed.

And please don't whinge when people politely if pointedly disagree with you.

[MonkeyMomma]

So is wearing the nijab comparable to Christians who say the Bible says women should wear long, flowing dresses/skirts because doing otherwise is not modest? Like, I'm not seeing a big difference between the two mindsets, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

I'm not an expert, but I'll throw my hat into the ring on this.

For me, personally, the big difference is in the enforcement of modesty. If an individual Muslim or Christian (or Jewish, for that matter) woman chooses to dress in a certain way because she is more comfortable or feels she it is a proper expression of her religious belief, then more power to her. However, if one advocates that ALL women dress in a certain way, whether through legislation or shaming, THAT'S when I have a big problem with it.

Also, as an extension of modesty, where are women allowed to move in their community or society? For instance, sunnichick working while wearing a niqab or the college students and nurses wearing hijab that NurseNell mentioned versus the belief of many of those that we snark on who believe that a woman's only place is in the home. For me, I'm far more offended by, oh say, Kendal's assertion that no woman should be president because she should be at home than seeing a woman in a hijab or niqab ringing me up.

[apple1]

...In the Quran, it tells says "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty...." Men are required to dress and act modestly as well, but they don't have to cover as much as women have to cover...

OK. (I live in a fairly multicultural area).

I see: The woman in niqab, walking behind the man who is wearing shorts/T shirt/flip flops or sandals. Seen most recently when the outside temp was 100. (I have seen this a number of times).

What exactly are "modest" men required to cover?

Flame away.

[formergothardite]

I just don't see a huge difference between Sunny saying this:

Not every Muslim thinks that the niqab is a requirement, but a small minority does believe that (myself included). In the Quran, it tells says "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty...."

And someone like Kristina coming and saying that not all the Christians she knows believe the Bible says women can't wear pants, but she believes it does. And that women should wear long, flowing dressing/skirts to be modest according to the Bible. Which is pretty much what she said.

[Sola]

I just found one time when I was walking in a mall and I was suddenly surrounded by a group of people wearing all black with just eyes showing disconcerting. Of course they should be able to wear what they want.

Nell

Do you think it's more that you are not used to seeing women dressed like that?

Here in the UK we have a much higher Muslim proportion of the population than the USA does. Where I live in particular is a town with a VERY high Muslim population, far above the average for the UK. I see many women in niqabs every day. I don't bat an eyelid because it's the norm around here. Maybe it is more that you are just not used to it.

[Sola]

OK. (I live in a fairly multicultural area).

I see: The woman in niqab, walking behind the man who is wearing shorts/T shirt/flip flops or sandals. Seen most recently when the outside temp was 100. (I have seen this a number of times).

What exactly are "modest" men required to cover?

Flame away.

Minimal coverage for a man is from navel to knee.

[jenny_islander]

I find it odd that fundamentalist Christians who want to start covering their hair would adopt clothing from a religion that otherwise they consider evil (because, they say, those Muslims want to dominate the world and make everybody else live like them and change all the laws to be Muslim laws--untrue of course, and also pot kettle!). If they don't want to look like Mennonites, why don't they go further back?

For example, during the only historical period I know of when European women wore frumpers, they also wore this on their heads:

http://historicenterprises.com/barbette ... th=100_124

If the little ruffle makes it too showy, they could go with the simplified version, like so:

http://historicenterprises.com/barbette ... th=100_124

For the link-phobic, the hair is stuffed into a hairnet. Then a linen cap that covers the back of the head is put on and flat bands that hang from the bottom of the cap are wound under the chin and pinned at the sides. After than a circular piece is pinned around the head like a child's play crown. Only the hair on the temples can be seen. The traditional color for the cloth pieces is white.

BTW, this is a very comfortable style of headgear once you get the pieces pinned to the right size; I sometimes forget I have mine on. (I'm a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism, so I dress up like this fairly often.)

If they have it fixed in their heads that lots of fabric is required in order to display modesty (I am speaking specifically of fundamentalist Christians), they could go with the classic veil from the same period:

http://www.revivalclothing.com/linenrec ... veils.aspx

But this was the style that inspired nuns' headdresses, and that would be Catholic, which as we all know means sinful error. (Say it with relish, the lips slightly drawn back from the teeth, and leaning forward slightly, because you're about to impart juicy spiritual gossip in the guise of pointing out spiritual error: Cathlick.)