Burka eating today

[Deleted03]

Ah. Annoying. Shades of Lina and her baruch-hashemming.

this is something many muslim do in conversations... and usually it's that and inchallah' (if god wills) not 15 different words.

I thought ahmdellah was thank god :P

[NurseNell]

Just curious, but is there a reason you sign every single one of your posts?

Hmm, because in 2 other forums I participate in, that use this same forum set up, a signature is required. Never even thought twice about it but I'll be sure not to make that mistake here again. Thanks.

[Boogalou]

Hmm, because in 2 other forums I participate in, that use this same forum set up, a signature is required. Never even thought twice about it but I'll be sure not to make that mistake here again. Thanks.

Not a mistake, I was just wondering :) Feel free to sign away!

[NurseNell]

Not a mistake, I was just wondering :) Feel free to sign away!

It's just so weird that I didn't even notice that others don't sign their posts. :shifty:

[emmiedahl]

Sometimes people with their faces covered make me uncomfortable, whether it is cold weather gear, a Halloween costume or religious dress. I cannot see their facial expressions. If you are used to seeing people's faces as you speak, that is how you get feedback. If you are used to seeing only eyes, you probably get used to reading expressions in the eyes only and feel less uncomfortable.

I think that women should determine for themselves how to dress. And then I can make fun of it if I feel so inclined. We are both free in that way, at least in the US. Making fun of someone's clothes behind their back is a bitchy thing to do and I do it on a regular basis, in an equal opportunity way that includes people from my own culture.

If you adopt Islamic styles of dress because you want to for whatever reason, whether it is a cultural preference or your personal interpretation of the Quran, then I am fine with it. If you have been coerced, either by people in your life, your religious leaders or your government, then I have a HUGE problem, especially when the men in your community are being held to a different standard and allowed to choose for themselves. Misogyny is something that I will not accept. Ever.

I am interested in why certain Muslim women choose certain clothing. For instance, a woman at my children's elementary school wears what most would call revealing clothing, but always with her hair covered. Obviously she feels comfortable in that attire, and an oppressive husband would not let her leave the house with several inches of midriff showing, so I assume it is her free choice. It interests me because I wonder how tight clothing+midriff bare+hair covered came to be her uniform.

Someone mentioned that Islamic countries are intolerant about other beliefs. This isn't Saudi Arabia. I'm glad. Get over it.

[pomology]

Ah. Annoying. Shades of Lina and her baruch-hashemming.

Frankly, I don't see it as the same thing at all.

I know many Muslims who say "alhamdulilah" or "inshallah" or "mashallah" because they were raised saying phrases like that. I find Lina fucking annoying, because saying "baruch hashem" for her is obviously a cultivated trait to make herself seem more Jewish.

[pomology]

Sometimes people with their faces covered make me uncomfortable, whether it is cold weather gear, a Halloween costume or religious dress. I cannot see their facial expressions. If you are used to seeing people's faces as you speak, that is how you get feedback. If you are used to seeing only eyes, you probably get used to reading expressions in the eyes only and feel less uncomfortable.

I think that women should determine for themselves how to dress. And then I can make fun of it if I feel so inclined. We are both free in that way, at least in the US. Making fun of someone's clothes behind their back is a bitchy thing to do and I do it on a regular basis, in an equal opportunity way that includes people from my own culture.

If you adopt Islamic styles of dress because you want to for whatever reason, whether it is a cultural preference or your personal interpretation of the Quran, then I am fine with it. If you have been coerced, either by people in your life, your religious leaders or your government, then I have a HUGE problem, especially when the men in your community are being held to a different standard and allowed to choose for themselves. Misogyny is something that I will not accept. Ever.

I am interested in why certain Muslim women choose certain clothing. For instance, a woman at my children's elementary school wears what most would call revealing clothing, but always with her hair covered. Obviously she feels comfortable in that attire, and an oppressive husband would not let her leave the house with several inches of midriff showing, so I assume it is her free choice. It interests me because I wonder how tight clothing+midriff bare+hair covered came to be her uniform.

Someone mentioned that Islamic countries are intolerant about other beliefs. This isn't Saudi Arabia. I'm glad. Get over it.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, emmiedahl.

[Mompom]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, emmiedahl.

Wow, me too! Especially the coercion part.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Eh, well, maybe I'm just an uptight purist, but I find the insertion of non-English religious phrases into the middle of an otherwise English sentence, without explanation or at the least parentheses/punctuation, annoying. Don't much care whether it's prompted by genuine faith or self-puffery.

[lexiloumarie]

As a white non-religious American lady who doesn't know much about Islam or the general culture of the middle east, I guess I feel it's better that I don't make assumptions and opine about shit that I frankly don't understand.

I live in an area with lots of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Baha'i people. I work, go to school, and live next door to these people. I believe the women who tell me that they wear certain clothes as an expression of their faith, and a rejection of cultural ideals that focus on valuing women as decorative objects intended for male pleasure. I also believe the women who feel that it's oppressive to them, and that requiring such a dress code is an infringement on their rights of self-expression.

My interest in this topic is listening to the people who live the experience, not putting in my ignorant two cents about it.

I care deeply about women's rights, but I can only speak from my own experience of being and dressing as a woman in the US. Anything else would be incredibly disrespectful, and probably make me look foolish as well.

It's also not my place to make open judgments about whether or not I find the hijab or the niqab attractive, or pretty, or acceptable to my delicate sensibilities. Because that's not what it's about, and it's also none of my goddamn business.

This is the best comment on this thread. If you're not being forced to dress a certain way, and you're not paying for the other persons' clothes, how is it anyone's damn business how they're dressed? IMO, it ends up being very hypocritical to fight against patriarchy and then in another breath do the same thing that patriarchy does and judge a woman and her beliefs by how she dresses. I dress fairly "frum looking" (like an observant Jew - not Jewish, that's an adj. for the commenter a couple pages back), yet I'm actually a lesbian hippy who doesn't like straight men looking at me that way.

Frankly, I don't see it as the same thing at all.

I know many Muslims who say "alhamdulilah" or "inshallah" or "mashallah" because they were raised saying phrases like that. I find Lina fucking annoying, because saying "baruch hashem" for her is obviously a cultivated trait to make herself seem more Jewish.

Lina uses phrases in ways I'd never see actual Jews use them. She takes her old Christian codewords and translates them. Inshallah, As-Salamu Alaykum, etc are phrases that come up/out often and may or may not have a translation that someone is comfortable with. I'd use frum, kosher/kashrut, daven, etc in certain situations because it's simply the first word I can think of.

[pomology]

Eh, well, maybe I'm just an uptight purist, but I find the insertion of non-English religious phrases into the middle of an otherwise English sentence, without explanation or at the least parentheses/punctuation, annoying. Don't much care whether it's prompted by genuine faith or self-puffery.

I use non-English religious phrases in otherwise English sentences not out of genuine faith or self-puffery, but because they are the words I know best and therefore the ones that come naturally. I try not to do it around non-Jews. When I do it around non-Jews, I try my best to explain them. But I don't see anything wrong with inserting non-English words (religious or not) into an otherwise English sentence. You just need to know your audience is all.

[emmiedahl]

I have a real problem in that I tend to use certain Jewish "code" words when they do not translate well into English. Naches, for example, takes a small paragraph to explain. Non-jewish women have similar feelings but no specific words for it. I try to avoid them though.

Lina's BHing is annoying. There are similar phrases in English. She is trying to show off how Jewish she is. Like: "Look, she is more Jewish than you because she puts the correct terms at the end of sentences and you don't! Even if you are a real Jew, she is doing it better!"

My understanding with certain Islamic phrases is that Muslims use many of them a lot, like 'Inshallah', "Praise Be Upon Him', etc, and that it is such a huge part of their daily language pattern that it is difficult NOT to say them. I'm not sure if it is required. The poster on this thread was discussing something religious in nature, so maybe she felt religiously obligated to use that phrase in that place. It's annoying when it is done to leave people out or to be a gratuitous display, but that is not necessarily the case here.

[Kelya]

My understanding with certain Islamic phrases is that Muslims use many of them a lot, like 'Inshallah', "Praise Be Upon Him', etc, and that it is such a huge part of their daily language pattern that it is difficult NOT to say them. I'm not sure if it is required. The poster on this thread was discussing something religious in nature, so maybe she felt religiously obligated to use that phrase in that place. It's annoying when it is done to leave people out or to be a gratuitous display, but that is not necessarily the case here.

In a lot of Chaim Potok's books, whenever Hitler is mentioned the character says "may his name and memory be erased," and whenever someone dead is spoken of, there's another phrase (that wasn't translated in the books, at least that I can remember) that was said. I don't know if its necessarily required but the few Orthodox Jews I know in person have similar things they say. In high school, an Orthodox Jewish girl would talk about Hitler in class without saying anything religious, but when speaking personally about her family and cultural history she'd say "may his name and memory be erased." It seemed like a good balance to me!

[ilovetchotchkes]

I have a real problem in that I tend to use certain Jewish "code" words when they do not translate well into English. Naches, for example, takes a small paragraph to explain. Non-jewish women have similar feelings but no specific words for it. I try to avoid them though.

Lina's BHing is annoying. There are similar phrases in English. She is trying to show off how Jewish she is. Like: "Look, she is more Jewish than you because she puts the correct terms at the end of sentences and you don't! Even if you are a real Jew, she is doing it better!"

My understanding with certain Islamic phrases is that Muslims use many of them a lot, like 'Inshallah', "Praise Be Upon Him', etc, and that it is such a huge part of their daily language pattern that it is difficult NOT to say them. I'm not sure if it is required. The poster on this thread was discussing something religious in nature, so maybe she felt religiously obligated to use that phrase in that place. It's annoying when it is done to leave people out or to be a gratuitous display, but that is not necessarily the case here.

I have a Muslim friend who said something like that when my (Jewish) baby was born after a really difficult labor. So yes, its definitely a linguistic reflex. :)

[Patsy]

I think a difference in definition of the word 'modesty' where Muslim women and Christian frumper women are concerned is that modesty for Muslim women is about not showing certain parts of their body, face, hair and for a frumper woman, it's about not showing those same things AND dressing not of this world.

Whenever I have seen women who wear hijabs, they are always nicely dressed, with cute pants peeping under their tunics, cute shoes, fancy handbag, and very nice, but obvious make up. Frumper women often have no make up, pinned up or covered hair, and either do the denim skirt routine, or wear the calico or denim frumpers.

I realize I'm saying all this in a simplistic way, but this is what I have gathered from observation and reading online from women of both faiths. Also, I know this does not speak for all Muslim and Christian women.

ETA: This was not directed at you, FormerGothardite, and I totally get the question you are asking.

Are the fashionable hijab wearers doing it for modesty, though? A lot of the Malaysian students I see who wear hijab, for example, are the most fashionable and trendy ones; they will not only coordinate beautiful sequined headscarves with the rest of their outfits (I see this in all the groups I see, not just the trendy jeans-wearers and Malaysian students), but will be wearing them with designer jeans and pretty tops. I've also seen groups of Malaysian women wear some wear headscarves and some don't, but it's a very widespread practice. I always assumed that for the majority of these women, they wear it because it's an item of clothing they have always worn -- or at least, that's their first reason, above modesty or religious observation. I've always seen that type of hijab wearing as a cultural thing, not a religious thing and certainly not a modesty thing. More like the wearing of nice earrings than the wearing of a crucifix.

[CanadianHippie]

Eh, well, maybe I'm just an uptight purist, but I find the insertion of non-English religious phrases into the middle of an otherwise English sentence, without explanation or at the least parentheses/punctuation, annoying. Don't much care whether it's prompted by genuine faith or self-puffery.

do you realize how often that, or something similar (in other words, non-religious phrases) happens? Even among people who only speak English? Ever hear someone speak the word "amen"? I'm sure we've all heard about kamikaze pilots, you know "divine wind"? A word originating from the belief that the Gods favoured Japan after a freak typhoons wiped out invading Mongolian fleets twice in under 10 years.

The English language is an intricate mix of words stolen from other languages.

[emmiedahl]

Are the fashionable hijab wearers doing it for modesty, though? A lot of the Malaysian students I see who wear hijab, for example, are the most fashionable and trendy ones; they will not only coordinate beautiful sequined headscarves with the rest of their outfits (I see this in all the groups I see, not just the trendy jeans-wearers and Malaysian students), but will be wearing them with designer jeans and pretty tops.

I think they do it because they have been raised that hair gets covered. Not so much out of modesty, as in not attracting attention, but modesty as in 'there are certain body parts we don't show'. I was raised to cover my ass and if I cover it with True Religion jeans, that is modesty in one sense and not in the other. Even if I moved to a culture where backsides did not require clothing, I would feel more comfortable wearing pants.

[doe]

Are the fashionable hijab wearers doing it for modesty, though? A lot of the Malaysian students I see who wear hijab, for example, are the most fashionable and trendy ones; they will not only coordinate beautiful sequined headscarves with the rest of their outfits (I see this in all the groups I see, not just the trendy jeans-wearers and Malaysian students), but will be wearing them with designer jeans and pretty tops. I've also seen groups of Malaysian women wear some wear headscarves and some don't, but it's a very widespread practice. I always assumed that for the majority of these women, they wear it because it's an item of clothing they have always worn -- or at least, that's their first reason, above modesty or religious observation. I've always seen that type of hijab wearing as a cultural thing, not a religious thing and certainly not a modesty thing. More like the wearing of nice earrings than the wearing of a crucifix.

Good point, Patsy. That's another perspective I don't have experience with, and hadn't thought of.

My main reason for posting what I did was to differentiate how I've seen modesty defined between Muslim women and Christian fundie women. "Modern Modest" isn't something I have seen too often in the 5 years I've explored the online fundie world. The most common ideology I see being pushed is that a woman shouldn't dress "worldly." (Along with wearing stuff not pertaining to a man and covering her curves.) And I've never seen a Muslim woman who dressed like she had the mindset that looking worldly was bad.

I guess we read the word 'modest' so often on the blogs that after a while it starts to seem like it means only what the bloggers say it does.

[Patsy]

I think they do it because they have been raised that hair gets covered. Not so much out of modesty, as in not attracting attention, but modesty as in 'there are certain body parts we don't show'. I was raised to cover my ass and if I cover it with True Religion jeans, that is modesty in one sense and not in the other. Even if I moved to a culture where backsides did not require clothing, I would feel more comfortable wearing pants.

I guess we read the word 'modest' so often on the blogs that after a while it starts to seem like it means only what the bloggers say it does.

Yep, yep, yep. If modesty's 'you cover up what you cover up', then that's absolutely what I assume a lot of the women I mentioned are doing. I've just started to associate the word 'modesty' with over-the-top displays and people using extensions beyond the norm of their community.

[Sola]

Yes, this was the first time I'd ever seen anyone in a niqab. It was shortly after 9/11. I was alone, and then there were 6 of them around me. To be honest, I didn't know if they were men or women. I was hoping they were woman.

We have a lot of Muslims here but most are Somali. The women are covered and wear an outfit that remonds me more of Catholic sisters from the past. They are not niqabs. Their heads are covered with hijabs. Most of the outfits are attractive.

Nell

That's probably understandable then. Shortly after 9/11 you are going to be on high alert and if you've never seen a niqaabi in the flesh then it would probably be a little surprising.

There are lots of Somali round here too, most of the women where jilbab (a long coat/dress type thing) and hijab.

Speaking of hijabs; I love these ones,

http://hijabtrend.files.wordpress.com/2 ... style2.jpg

http://thehijablog.wordpress.com/2008/12/08/fly-hijabi/

How on earth would you do one of these? They are so elaborate, it must take ages to do one.

[Sola]

So it really isn't that different from Christian fundie dress standards for men and woman.

Pretty much. All three of the Abrahamic religions have very similar dress requirements. Over time these have evolved, and with the addition of regional styles, what we have now is the result. If you were to go back to the advent of Islam and take a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew then they would all be dressed pretty similarly.

[clibbyjo]

[Sola]

Some of our schools have had to allow for separate swim times for Muslim girls. They can swim with non-Muslim girls but not with any males. Normally swimming is co-ed.

Nell

I'm fine with that and personally for swimming purposes I much prefer to go to female only sessions. I just feel more comfortable if it is female only.

@ Clibby, I love those too. I do wear a scarf quite frequently - I just like them, plus they are great for bad hair days - I might try one of those.

[Deleted03]

Eh, well, maybe I'm just an uptight purist, but I find the insertion of non-English religious phrases into the middle of an otherwise English sentence, without explanation or at the least parentheses/punctuation, annoying. Don't much care whether it's prompted by genuine faith or self-puffery.

well first, some people are immigrant and english does not necessarily let them express what they feel.

And then arabic is a very important language for islam. Usually muslims or muslim authorities like that you learn arabic to read the Qu'ran... Those words have some strength... you can also always google them ;)

[Katiebug]

Sometimes people with their faces covered make me uncomfortable, whether it is cold weather gear, a Halloween costume or religious dress. I cannot see their facial expressions. If you are used to seeing people's faces as you speak, that is how you get feedback. If you are used to seeing only eyes, you probably get used to reading expressions in the eyes only and feel less uncomfortable.

I think that women should determine for themselves how to dress. And then I can make fun of it if I feel so inclined. We are both free in that way, at least in the US. Making fun of someone's clothes behind their back is a bitchy thing to do and I do it on a regular basis, in an equal opportunity way that includes people from my own culture.

If you adopt Islamic styles of dress because you want to for whatever reason, whether it is a cultural preference or your personal interpretation of the Quran, then I am fine with it. If you have been coerced, either by people in your life, your religious leaders or your government, then I have a HUGE problem, especially when the men in your community are being held to a different standard and allowed to choose for themselves. Misogyny is something that I will not accept. Ever.

I am interested in why certain Muslim women choose certain clothing. For instance, a woman at my children's elementary school wears what most would call revealing clothing, but always with her hair covered. Obviously she feels comfortable in that attire, and an oppressive husband would not let her leave the house with several inches of midriff showing, so I assume it is her free choice. It interests me because I wonder how tight clothing+midriff bare+hair covered came to be her uniform.

I agree with pretty much everything said here.

You can even feel free to substitute any religious tradition for "Islam", any scriptural text for "Quran", and any form of modest dressing/headcovering for "hijab", "niqab", or "burqa". I have no issue with a person who feels that their religious beliefs call them to dress a certain way. I do have an issue when it's legally required or when those people (almost always women) are coerced or bullied into dressing in that way. I don't care if it's an Orthodox Jewish woman wearing a tichel, a Muslim woman in a hijab, or a Christian woman in a frumper with a head scarf - if she doesn't have a religious conviction for that sort of apparel and is only doing so because her religious leader, her male relatives or husband, or her government says she has to, then it's wrong.

My particular issue with the niqab (not hijab or any other hair covering) versus other forms of religiously-motivated modest dressing/headcovering is that it includes veiling of the entire face with the exception of the eyes. It makes me uncomfortable because I tend to note nonverbal behavioral cues including facial expressions as a part of social discourse and find it disconcerting when that's not an option. People in industrialized Western societies generally don't cover/obscure their entire faces - it's not the norm here. The more substantial Muslim modest apparel like the niqab and burqa are a different story than a chador, hijab, tichel, headscarf, mantilla, or wig because with the former styles one can't see the wearer's face and with the latter, you can.

My brother was stationed in Bahrain for a year and many times he saw families from more conservative Gulf countries on holiday - the wife (or wives) were in full niqab while the men were in golf shirts and shorts. It was an insane double standard.

I have an Iranian coworker and he said that in his home country, women cover because it's required by the government and the police will haul you away if you don't. The majority of women wear the required coverings only in public and especially younger women and teenagers often push the rules to the limit. His wife is also Iranian but the minute she got on the plane to go to university in the US she stopped wearing the required head scarf and trench coat-like overgarment (I can't remember what they called it). She wears jeans and short sleeved shirts, usually quite form-fitting, and her hair and makeup is impeccable. To be fair, they are both from educated/affluent families in a certain area of Tehran and it may be different outside of the cities and in different socioeconomic classes.