Burka eating today

[Mompom]

I think covering and lots of fabric is kind of beautiful and old fashioned. When I was a teenager (I was a weird teenager) I went through a phase where I wore really loooooong wool skirts and fuzzy wool sweaters, tights, chunky shoes. If I hadn't lived in a small town with little shopping I would have had a beret or woolen hats and a sari and as much flowy clothes as I could.

Now, that I know what I know about "submission" and "subjection" and all that lovely stuff, I feel differently about hyper gender roles being displayed through dress. I'm not opposed to it at all, it's just that now a veil symbolizes something *different* to me than before. One of the things it symbolizes for me is that women and women's beauty belong to a man. It also seems to me that the beauty of a woman is not seen as enhancing the world around her or an expression of who she is but as a temptation or something so precious that no one is allowed to experience it. I have to admit, I like looking at people. I enjoy their smiles, eyes crinkling up in the corner, makeup, jewelry... the face in my culture is so important that our communication is made up (in a substantial portion) by non verbal communication. It *to me* feels that those women don't need to be "heard"/seen and that their nonverbal communication is not seen as necessarily enhancing to daily life.

This brings me to a wedding I attended yesterday. It was an evangelical Christian (fundielite, I suppose) wedding. The pastor mentioned Ephesians 5 OF COURSE and how she was to obey her husband. O Rilly? I mean, he is divorced, has teenagers and he's marrying a young virgin and SHE'S supposed to obey HIM? I mean, for me, I'm not faulting him for divorce, but I'm angry about how freaking inconsistent they are about applying scriptures. The Bible says there is no divorce and remarriage. If you are going to take Eph 5 as a mandate, why not the divorce and remarriage part? I'll tell you WHY. They interpret it so that men (and occasionally women) can get what they want. He wants a young hottie. He wants a church wedding. So, voila, make it work. Or maybe they think the divorce and remarriage thing isn't for today or that confession makes it all go away, but isn't it interesting that the damn belief about woman obeying a man *never goes away*? Grrrr. I wanted to walk out. I wanted to scream. It just makes me so very mad.

It's just that NOW after having studied the fundamentalist life and having people in my life try to shove me into it (thank God not my husband), the veil and burka don't seem so exotic and charming to me anymore. Well, they DO when I meet someone, but not when I think about it too long. I still think it's kind of cool, but the beliefs behind it and frumpers and head doilies, and all of that seem silently sinister. It's not the woman I have a problem with or even her right to wear it, it's the teachings. But that's me. I'm for religious freedom, I really am, but I feel sad for women and men in those cultures. I can't imagine living in a culture where, publicly, I couldn't smile at the salesclerk or wink at a child in the checkout line, or share a knowing glance and hidden smile on a crowded bus with a stranger over some silly thing.

[Boogalou]

OK. (I live in a fairly multicultural area).

I see: The woman in niqab, walking behind the man who is wearing shorts/T shirt/flip flops or sandals. Seen most recently when the outside temp was 100. (I have seen this a number of times).

What exactly are "modest" men required to cover?

Flame away.

Yes, this. I don't have a problem with the way anyone dresses, I have a problem with the blatant double standard.

[NurseNell]

Do you think it's more that you are not used to seeing women dressed like that?

Here in the UK we have a much higher Muslim proportion of the population than the USA does. Where I live in particular is a town with a VERY high Muslim population, far above the average for the UK. I see many women in niqabs every day. I don't bat an eyelid because it's the norm around here. Maybe it is more that you are just not used to it.

Yes, this was the first time I'd ever seen anyone in a niqab. It was shortly after 9/11. I was alone, and then there were 6 of them around me. To be honest, I didn't know if they were men or women. I was hoping they were woman.

We have a lot of Muslims here but most are Somali. The women are covered and wear an outfit that remonds me more of Catholic sisters from the past. They are not niqabs. Their heads are covered with hijabs. Most of the outfits are attractive.

Nell

[formergothardite]

Minimal coverage for a man is from navel to knee.

So it really isn't that different from Christian fundie dress standards for men and woman.

[apple1]

So it really isn't that different from Christian fundie dress standards for men and woman.

I don't care much for those, either.

[Mompom]

Yes, this. I don't have a problem with the way anyone dresses, I have a problem with the blatant double standard.

Yes, what's up with that anyway? I suppose it's possible he wants to be more liberal and she chooses on her own to wear it, but you do wonder.

[fundifugee]

Hijabs and Chadors are one thing -- they show the wearer's allegiance to and belief in a religious principle. The niqab and burka are different -- they completely take away the reality that the person wearing them is human. They deny that person the ability to show emotion, to communicate through body language, and to be seen as an individual.

Actually, not necessarily. Whole anthropological treatises have been written on the communication system of the Tuareg people, using eyes only. They are also a Muslim society but it is the men who cover their faces, leaving only the eyes visible. Works nicely if you are in the sahara with lots of blowing sand.

Interestingly, similar forms of eye/face gesture communication exists amongst the Inuit, who (obviously) cover up most skin to avoid freezing and frostbite.

I have worn hijab and chador when I was living with a Muslim family in Uganda. On the one hand, it gave me a nice modicum of anonymity as it was no longer as obvious that I was the only white girl in town....there became some question with my light hair covered about whether I was Arab or Pakistani or what. Chador, though, was hideously hot in that climate; and when I once tried niqab (to avoid sunburn ha ha) it was awful; on a hot, humid day I felt like I could not breathe and there was no way for the sweat to evaporate. I don't know how women do it full time. Probably is a good incentive for them to stay home, unless they're rich enough to have an air conditioned car and office. Long flowing skirts and blouses were nice in the hot weather though, but not covered by those icky polyester-acetate chadors (yes, I am sure they are not all icky polyester-acetate, but in Uganda they were. It is a poor country). Yes, they were also a fire hazard as we cooked outside over a charcoal burner on the ground, so it was public and the women covered up. Easy to see why burns were so common; even worse with limited sight and an extra layer of super flammable melty chador that is by design NOT supposed to stay close to your body.

[Phyllis Stein]

The number 1 reason that niqabs and burkas make me uncomfortable is public safety. A person fully covered cannot be identified.

Criminals can dress in burkas/niqabs and escape identifcaiton through security cameras and eye witnesses. It is scary to wonder who is under the veil/fabric and also what they could be carrying within the massive amounts of fabric.

The difference between the burkas/niqabs and any other type of modest wear/head covering that has been discussed here is that they completely hide the face.

[crazyforkate]

Thanks to the user who had posted that chart- I knew the terms hijab, burka, niqab and chador but wasn't quite clear on some of the differences.

Here in downtown Toronto, I have seen all four, but the hijab is by far the most common. I've seen a few women in niqab or chador and maybe two or three in burka. In Canada we have a TV series called "Little Mosque on the Prairie" where one of the main characters is a feminist Muslim doctor who chooses to wear the hijab out of of her interpretation of religious requirements. Her character has been very well-received here and abroad.

[duplessis3]

I worry about burkas and chadors that restrict women's eyesight - it is dangerous for THEM.

I suspect Saudi women are a lot more concerned about being able to drive rather than dress. I'm reading an interesting article "Feminist theology as cultural discourse" by Kwok Pui-lan. Women in countries that wear primarily niqab, burkas and chadors have their own agency to decide what is most important to them. For example, getting decent maternity care might be higher on the "need" basis than a change in outfit.

And I totally see the point of hijab that cover the bosom. As a woman with big breasts, I get tired of men speaking to my boobs (and even women looking at them.) I don't feel like I have more agency when that happens. If I wore a hijab would I get more eye contact? Probably.

(PS There are tons and tons of fashion blogs for hijabi. Scintillating Butterflies is one of my favorites - in part because she takes a lot of pictures of herself with her friends, all of whom have varying degrees of hijab. She's a lawyer, (in Indonesia) and it is completely clear that her fashion choices are her own. There isn't any governmental pressure or societal pressure to dress a certain way.

[The Archivist]

As someone who doesn't know much about Islam or the general culture of the middle east, I guess I feel it's better that I don't make assumptions and opine about shit that I frankly don't understand.

I believe the women who tell me that they wear certain clothes as an expression of their faith, and a rejection of cultural ideals that focus on valuing women as decorative objects intended for male pleasure. I also believe the women who feel that it's oppressive to them, and that requiring such a dress code is an infringement on their rights of self-expression.

My interest in this topic is listening to the people who live the experience, not putting in my ignorant two cents about it.

I care deeply about women's rights, but I can only speak from my own experience. Anything else would be incredibly disrespectful, and probably make me look foolish as well.

It's also not my place to make open judgments about whether or not I find the hijab or the niqab attractive, or pretty, or acceptable to my delicate sensibilities. Because that's not what it's about, and it's also none of my goddamn business.

[Prek teach]

I live in a fairly diverse area and often see women in hijabs or chadors, even at the pool when they bring their kids to swim. Those styles are pretty commonplace around here. One woman who did stand out was the one wearing a hijab with a pair of skinny jeans, tight top and killer heels. She was drop dead gorgeous to boot and I momentarily seethed with jealousy...LOL. There is a girl on my DD's lacrosse team who sometimes plays wearing a hijab and full body covering under her uniform when her father is at the game. I've noticed that there are all sorts of variety when it comes to coverings. The hijab paired with loose flowing tunics, the hijab paired with regular western-styled clothing, loose flowing tunics but no head coverings, Sihk (sp?) men with turbans and western clothing, Sikh men with tunics and turbans etc.

[keeperrox]

As a white non-religious American lady who doesn't know much about Islam or the general culture of the middle east, I guess I feel it's better that I don't make assumptions and opine about shit that I frankly don't understand.

I believe the women who tell me that they wear certain clothes as an expression of their faith, and a rejection of cultural ideals that focus on valuing women as decorative objects intended for male pleasure. I also believe the women who feel that it's oppressive to them, and that requiring such a dress code is an infringement on their rights of self-expression.

My interest in this topic is listening to the people who live the experience, not putting in my ignorant two cents about it.

I care deeply about women's rights, but I can only speak from my own experience of being and dressing as a woman in the US. Anything else would be incredibly disrespectful, and probably make me look foolish as well.

It's also not my place to make open judgments about whether or not I find the hijab or the niqab attractive, or pretty, or acceptable to my delicate sensibilities. Because that's not what it's about, and it's also none of my goddamn business.

This x 1,000.

This is also why I feel like you can't compare frumpers and Islamic coverings.

[formergothardite]

If someone wants to wear a nijab that is their right and it really doesn't bother me. Neither does wearing frumpers or being skirts only. I just don't think that there is a lot of difference between what Sunny said what our fundies say when discussing their clothing and modesty.

[lovefromgirl]

As the only Catholic in my class through 12 years of school I think I know more about what it feels to be excluded than most folks. I have no admiration for places that don't allow religious freedom.

No. No, you really don't. There are worse things to be than the only Catholic. I was for years--and then I became the only Pagan, and that was worse. I was also the only foreigner in my all-American small town. My mum's a resident alien; sometimes I feel like that's the perfect term to describe people with very recent roots in other places, because American culture is tricky. How, at age ten, was I supposed to know I was already meant to strip my poor body of all its hair? How was I supposed to know that changing in front of other girls still warranted hiding your nakedness? I didn't understand the rules, and rest assured the rules were quite different from what my mother thought. It's also not fun being treated like a piece of translation software, though I admit I liked being able to adapt to my "second" language class more easily than the others. Ditto being The Representative of your other country, except for freaking Hitler--oh, and history class was never fun. "Er, yeah, one of my granddads was in the Wehrmacht. No, he never killed a Jew in his life." Always mentally adding "so screw off" to the end of that statement.

And I was only from Germany! Imagine what it's like to come to a country where you don't even look like anyone else.

So yes, be sorry you felt, for a moment, like the Other. Be glad your only long-term experience as Other had to do with a difference in Christian doctrine. Be glad you're an American in America, full-blooded, raised from birth in one place and one culture instead of having to piece it together from scraps.

[keeperrox]

If someone wants to wear a nijab that is their right and it really doesn't bother me. Neither does wearing frumpers or being skirts only. I just don't think that there is a lot of difference between what Sunny said what our fundies say when discussing their clothing and modesty.

Here's where I think the difference lies... With a nijab, you have a nijab and that's that. Sure there are differences in color, fabric, and ornamentation, but it's still a nijab. The purpose is still to be completely covered from head to toe, with the exception of the eyes. Whether or not I agree with it doesn't matter, because of that whole freedom of religion thing.

With fundamentalist Christians, they wear frumpers because they think it is a modest piece of clothing and will divert attention away from the female figure and up to the face when coupled with their ridiculous hairstyles. However, there are plenty of modest, modern clothes, which completely make the frumper an unnecessary choice. What the Duggar and Botkin women/girls wear now perfectly exemplifies this. As we have discussed, time and time again, wearing a frumper attracts attention more often than not. I also think it goes along with the whole speshul snowflake way of thinking that many of the fundies we talk about seem to have.

I have absolutely no problem with Christians dressing modestly or head covering, just as I have no problem with any kind of Islamic covering, be it just the head or the entire body. What I do have a problem with is the oppressive attitudes that make women think they have to dress that way when they don't want to, or when the people of those faiths want to push their religion on others.

[Deleted03]

some women on campus do that. I must say that I don't understand it. I often catch myself thinking: well not like anyone actually want to see your face. I know it's bad.

I just don't get it. and specially here in the US. I mean last time I went to France I was all weirded out because people would look at me directly, ,studying my face or whatever. People here just don't do that.

Now I also think that new legislation in France is bad. NOw the women who want to wear the niqab just can't go outside without being harrassed by stupid people. Most police officers thankfully don't want to verbalise them and often let them just go. But this is crazy. If we wanted to confine them home we couldn't have done it better!

Yes I'm uncomfortable with women who absolutely hide themselves in the street - I'm always wondering why on earth, if they think all men are rapist, etc ; but in any case it's not my case to judge this as a good or bad practice. I want them in society not outside of it.

[NurseNell]

And I was only from Germany! Imagine what it's like to come to a country where you don't even look like anyone else.

So yes, be sorry you felt, for a moment, like the Other. Be glad your only long-term experience as Other had to do with a difference in Christian doctrine. Be glad you're an American in America, full-blooded, raised from birth in one place and one culture instead of having to piece it together from scraps.

I know what it's like to not look like anyone else, through my sons. My sons are both Colombian. They were the only non-whites in a small town in northern WI. My younger son is Afro-Colombian. I was often asked rude questions about the father(s) of my sons. They had the same father and didn't look like him either. My older son looks more mestizo which got me lots of questions about why I had an Indian child. Indian meaning Native American in an area where Indian fishing rights was a major bone of contention. My younger son was called nigger.

I've also spent time in a small mountain village in Michoacan, Mexico where my niece and I were the only gringas. So I have experienced being the Other.

You don't know that I was raised from birth in one place and one culture. Careful about assuming.

Nell

[NurseNell]

No. No, you really don't. There are worse things to be than the only Catholic.

When you're a little kid and your neighbors are NOT allowed to play with you because you're Catholic it doesn't exactly feel good. The KKK used to burn crosses on the lawns of Catholics, the fear of which kept me awake many nights.

Nell

[Mompom]

One thing that might help understanding is if we non covering women could somehow understand the reason behind women wearing burkas, hijab, chador, etc. I'm Greek Orthodox and quite a few immigrants from all over wear coverings at our church. They do it for the reason of women being covered in church according to Paul's writings and the history of the church. The women from Kenya wear long white fabric swaths and women from Russia tend to wear a little scarf tied at the neck (while in church only unless they are elderly). The Egyptian families take their shoes off at the door when they go to our orthodox church. I find it interesting that a lot of customs of eastern Christians cross over with Muslim customs. So it all fascinates me. I'm especially interested in how women wore western clothing in some ME countries before the religious revolutions, and I have to admit I have a fear of religious revolutions happening here in America. That's one reason why I get nervous when fundie Christians want a "Christian government" because I envision certain things that used to be optional becoming mandatory and all that goes along with it. I'm all for religious freedom, but no matter how you paint it, you can't argue with the fact that *some* women do not want to cover and have to. That sucks and is wrong. Period.

My Jewish former neighbor wears a head covering and modest clothes (especially now in Israel) and her reasoning made sense to me to a certain extent. I appreciated her frankness in bringing it up herself and talking about it. I agree that in certain instances it draw more attention than deflecting attention. When she wears an entire body suit under a mini dress with a v-neck, I question entire idea. But that's really common with her friends. It's just not particularly attractive. Of course we've discussed that "attractiveness" is not the point.

To a certain extent I find myself being a fundie snarker no matter which fundie religion it is, but at the same time I respect that people have the right to select their beliefs and live them out fully the way they wish.

[Mompom]

When you're a little kid and your neighbors are NOT allowed to play with you because you're Catholic it doesn't exactly feel good. The KKK used to burn crosses on the lawns of Catholics, the fear of which kept me awake many nights.

Nell

Dude, my best friend was a Catholic and when I was a fundie I used to try to convert her with a little booklet about the evils of Roman Catholicism. She's still my friend, my best friend, thank goodness. She understands that in my child mind, I was trying to save her from hell because I loved her. But yes, Catholics were not considered "Christians" for REAL. We did not consider them Christians and I even had a pastor that said Catholicism was a Satanic cult. We were nice people. :) LOL. Sorta. FWIW, I feel terrible about it now. Then again, I was totally exploited and made into a freak who was forced to sing songs in front of Catholic churches in Ireland to try to convert them. Awesome, isn't it? :shock:

[formergothardite]

Here's where I think the difference lies... With a nijab, you have a nijab and that's that. Sure there are differences in color, fabric, and ornamentation, but it's still a nijab. The purpose is still to be completely covered from head to toe, with the exception of the eyes. Whether or not I agree with it doesn't matter, because of that whole freedom of religion thing.

With fundamentalist Christians, they wear frumpers because they think it is a modest piece of clothing and will divert attention away from the female figure and up to the face when coupled with their ridiculous hairstyles. However, there are plenty of modest, modern clothes, which completely make the frumper an unnecessary choice. What the Duggar and Botkin women/girls wear now perfectly exemplifies this. As we have discussed, time and time again, wearing a frumper attracts attention more often than not. I also think it goes along with the whole speshul snowflake way of thinking that many of the fundies we talk about seem to have.

I have absolutely no problem with Christians dressing modestly or head covering, just as I have no problem with any kind of Islamic covering, be it just the head or the entire body. What I do have a problem with is the oppressive attitudes that make women think they have to dress that way when they don't want to, or when the people of those faiths want to push their religion on others.

But what if they think all those modern modest clothes aren't really modest? Sunni said that she wears a nijab to guard her modesty and because she believes the Quaran says she must dress that way. How would that be any different than frumper wearing fundies saying that frumpers are the only thing that is Bible approved modest? Frumpers I would think would draw less attention than a nijab. How is saying the Quaran says women must be covered exept for their eyes any different or less oppressing than saying the Bible says women must wear frumpers?

I just don't think there is any difference in what Sunni said than what frumper wearing fundies say. I actually do know several frumper weaing fundies who do believe women can work, they just have to have jobs in which they can wear frumpers.

[CanadianHippie]

I'm a little disconcerted by the people who insist that a burqa or niqab is unsettling or somehow removing a woman's identity. I live in an area with a high Muslim population and I've gone to school with and worked with Muslim women from across the board (with the exception of a burqa admittedly) including Muslim women who wear clothes far less modest than my own, and women in niqabs. None were particularly frightening, and none had an lack of personality or identity. They were all just women who wore more, or less, or the same amount of fabric as I did. Very few people here even look twice at a woman in a niqab getting a bachelors degree in computer technology, or psychology.

There was one woman I work an a semester long project with who always had the most amazing hijabs though, I remember the one made from emerald green velvet with flower embroidery that was beyond gorgeous.

[NurseNell]

FWIW, I feel terrible about it now. Then again, I was totally exploited and made into a freak who was forced to sing songs in front of Catholic churches in Ireland to try to convert them. Awesome, isn't it? :shock:

Even then I didn't blame the kids, I blamed the adults.

I gave the eulogy at my Mom's memorial service in 2000. After our former neighbor Betty, a very Catholic hating strict Baptist told me she wished she had been a better friend to us all those years ago. So that made me feel better, knowing she recognized what she had done. Her kids went to Bob Jones University, which I guess is a pretty fundamental college.

Where are you from in Ireland? My McBrides were from Donegal, my Lees and O'Briens from Clare.

Nell

[Mompom]

Even then I didn't blame the kids, I blamed the adults.

I gave the eulogy at my Mom's memorial service in 2000. After our former neighbor Betty, a very Catholic hating strict Baptist told me she wished she had been a better friend to us all those years ago. So that made me feel better, knowing she recognized what she had done. Her kids went to Bob Jones University, which I guess is a pretty fundamental college.

Where are you from in Ireland? My McBrides were from Donegal, my Lees and O'Briens from Clare.

Nell

I am not from Ireland, I was on a mission trip there in 8th grade! Yes. It's true. We were sent to Ireland to try to convert the Catholics! We stayed with a mission that had less than 100 protestant members. Maybe even less than 50. It's been a very long time. Ireland is beautiful though. The kindness of the people, protestant and Catholic, was astounding. I loved it. I'd love to go back as an adult and this time, I'd like to just enjoy the country and people and maybe buy a chunky wool fisherman's sweater. :D No more "witnessing" for me. Those days are over and good riddance!