Lori Alexander 35: Closing Windows Because of the Fires

[jerkit]

Is the woman in this cartoon wearing *gasp* LEGGINGS?!

 

 

[Koala]

Lord help us all.  Another reader has chimed in:

Quote

i have two children with varying disabilities. The older one is almost 11 and cannot walk or crawl. And is still in nappies ( diapers) and is non verbal. 

Quote

we still managed to find ways to train her

Quote

she doesnt seem to need much correction. 

What could she ever do to need any correction????  WHAT???  What kind of correction are we talking about?  Lori's kind?  What are these people doing to these poor children?

Honestly, my heart is just breaking in two reading what these women are writing.  What is this world coming to when women-supposedly mothers, want to "severely discipline" and "train" brain damaged, non-mobile, non-verbal kids???  I am well and truly horrified.  There's no way to put it into words.  

[Koala]

Okay, so the same mother with the special needs 11 year old that she "trains", wrote this:

Quote

I have 9 children, pregnant with my 10th and out of the 9 i have two children with varying disabilities. The older one is almost 11 and cannot walk or crawl. And is still in nappies ( diapers) and is non verbal.

Quote

 we still managed to find ways to train her.

Quote

I cant stand ‘gentle parenting’.

Quote

I was too lax on my kids for years. I guess you could say i resorted to the worlds method more. I still spanked.

Quote

I hated to hear my kids cry if their dad would spank them.

Now watch carefully:

Quote

I changed my ways somewhat as with this latest pregnancy my legs and hips often leave me doubled over in pain if i stand or walk too much. 

She "changed her ways", because she has bred herself to a point where she can no longer care for her home or children, so she needs the kids to do all the work.

Quote

now im forced to sit and supervise and direct. And for once the house is looking better and staying that way.

She says that she was cleaning the house before, but now that she just lets her kids take care of it, it looks better.  

Quote

getting tougher on my kids and being spanked more consistently under the right conditions has worked

Yes, she "got tougher" on her kids, started "spanking more", and now she can just sit back and supervise while they raise each other (I guess that includes their two special needs siblings) and clean her house.  

The good news?  Her husband sounds like a real gem.  He recognized that the kids were built in servants all along.

Quote

because i have taken on a more supervisory role with the house and kids, my husband is happier. Everytime he saw me franticly doing housework he would screw up his face and tell me i shouldnt be doing that, but making the kids do it instead. He hated seeing me up at all hours doing all the work.

No lady, you absolutely should be doing it, because YOU ARE THE MOTHER!  If that means you can't have fifty million kids, then so be it.  There's no rule that you have to be in a perpetual state of pregnancy.  You clearly can't take care of the 9 you have.  

Should your kids clean their rooms?  Yep.  Should your older kids learn to do their laundry and help with things like cleaning up the dinner dishes?  Sure!  Should they learn the basics of running a household?  Absolutely!

Should you sit back and "supervise" while they run your home and care for each other?  Heavens NO!  Your job involves far more that sitting on the sofa and supervising.  Even if that means hiring someone.  Your kids need to be getting an education, not acting as live in household help for you and your husband.

Your husband "hated" to see you up at all hours doing house work?  That's called being a mom to 9 kids.  Something you both chose!  Get a grip.  These kids didn't choose this life, you two did.  If he feels so bad, let him help you.  Teach those kids to take care of their own basics (make bed, clean room, put away laundry), and then grow up and take care of your own home!

What a shame!  THIS is the danger of two parents having an unlimited supply of kids to raise....THEY END UP NOT RAISING THEM!  You are "spanking more" because you want children to do your job for you!

 

[Celtic Rose]

I think I read somewhere that Steve Bannon advocated spanking kids with special needs  just no no no 

[smittykins]

The whole idea of "training" a child, special needs or not, seriously burns my biscuits.   You want to train something,  get a dog( although I shudder about what might happen).

[Koala]

@Ken wanted to know how Lori's teaching were dangerous.  THIS is how.  

Ken, you like to chime in on her posts.  Well this is the one.  Step in and tell these women not to hurt those babies.  Tell them that your wife has some bizarre idea that pain= godliness, and inflicting pain = even more godliness.  Tell them you don't believe that.  Tell them it would be criminal to "discipline" those children, (severely or otherwise).  

If you are in charge of Lori's blog as she claims you are, step in and stop this craziness!  Tell these women Lori's advice is dangerous in their situations.

[Loveday]

On the subject of sleepovers, one commenter relates her personal experience and a common-sense plan, which means it will soon disappear:

Quote

This is just a personal story from my childhood and I'm not in anyway judging how other people raise their children. I'm just putting out in the world my perspective. As kid who was raised strictly lutheran Christian, strict Christian parenting from family like no sleepovers, vacation bible school every single summer, and being taken to church against my will caused me as a child to hate going to church, it made me hate being Christian and for a short time in my life caused me to turn from God out of frustration. As a kid forced to lose friends because of my faith, driven to depression and suicide attempt by my faith, I plan on raising my kids to love being Christian. I don't want it to be a chore, I don't want then suicidal at 14 like I was. I want them to enjoy going to church and be happy to talk about what they believe. But that's just my story and how I feel about that kind of strict Christian parenting. I eventually found my way back to god, but I never did go to church again. Just something to think about.

 

[AlwaysDiscerning]

3 hours ago, jerkit said:

Is the woman in this cartoon wearing *gasp* LEGGINGS?!

 

 

Leggings, yes, LOL. And it look more like she is giving him the Heimlich rather than a hug. Or he looks like he is turning away and pissed about something and she is begging for forgiveness...its just an odd drawing. 

[usmcmom]

If Lori's kids read the comments about disciplining special needs children and STILL leave their childfen with her, they are just as monstrous as she is. 

I am beginning to think Ryan and Erin don't really care who keeps their kids, just so they are out of their hair as much as possible. Ken and Lori seem to have those three grandkids A LOT and we know what kind of parent Ryan is because Lori has bragged on his cruelty in the past. 

[Pammy]

On the topic of "disciplining and training" special needs children... I'm sure that Lori and her readers are talking about consequences, punishment, and specifically corporal punishment. In Lori land, raising children is all about what they do 'wrong' and the nasty stuff parents do to try to gain control. That's sick, and I share your horror.

But I do think that raising special needs children involves teaching, coaching and working with them. All parents are interested in various strategies to try to limit, say, throwing food or hitting others. It's not about kids doing something wrong and being punished -- only Lori thinks that's all there is to 'discipline'. There are various strategies to help special needs children move away from unpleasant behaviour (like the above), or get a good night's sleep, or to help them get over resisting things like teeth brushing.

These various reasonable strategies (aimed at reasonable goals) are usually *also* called "discipline and training". I don't think it's fair to say that no one should attempt to discipline a special needs child when we really mean that no one should hit or hurt them.

Good parents of special needs kids are working their asses off -- and one of the things they are working on is their children's behaviour. Discipline and training don't need to be dirty words because they aren't always being done by cold hearted abusive monsters. Sometimes they are being done well.

[lilwriter85]

I honestly wish Lori would stop bringing up the subjects of molestation and sleepovers. She has done it in the past and while incidents like that have occurred, it bugs me that Lori defended Josh Duggar even though he molested a babysitter who had been sleeping over at the Duggars' house in addition to his sisters.  Prior to Joshgate breaking, Lori did a few posts about child molestation incidents at sleepovers and she stated that males(fathers and brothers) in the home were a threat. When Joshgate broke, some fundies slammed the Duggars. Lori and Ken ended up being their defenders. Now, maybe there is a chance that Lori didn't read all the details that were made public about the molestation incidents. But, I think some fundies out there might have used the incident of Josh molesting the babysitter as an example of why you shouldn't have teens or young women sleeping over at other' peoples homes.

Lori will be one of the fundies who defends the Duggars to very end. Everyone has flaws, but Lori has never seen the many issues with the Duggars. She recently praised the Duggar son-in-laws which made me laugh. Jeremy seems like he might be a decent guy. Derick is a grifting asshole and Ben seems like a gold digger who knew that marrying Jessa would give him access to various resources. Back when the IMDB boards were around, some Duggar fans said that they didn't like Ben and I remember a couple of people disliking Derick too. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of financial scandal involving Jill/Derick or Ben/Jessa. If that happens Lori will be there defending them as usual.

[EowynW]

17 minutes ago, Pammy said:

On the topic of "disciplining and training" special needs children... I'm sure that Lori and her readers are talking about consequences, punishment, and specifically corporal punishment. In Lori land, raising children is all about what they do 'wrong' and the nasty stuff parents do to try to gain control. That's sick, and I share your horror.

But I do think that raising special needs children involves teaching, coaching and working with them. All parents are interested in various strategies to try to limit, say, throwing food or hitting others. It's not about kids doing something wrong and being punished -- only Lori thinks that's all there is to 'discipline'. There are various strategies to help special needs children move away from unpleasant behaviour (like the above), or get a good night's sleep, or to help them get over resisting things like teeth brushing.

These various reasonable strategies (aimed at reasonable goals) are usually *also* called "discipline and training". I don't think it's fair to say that no one should attempt to discipline a special needs child when we really mean that no one should hit or hurt them.

Good parents of special needs kids are working their asses off -- and one of the things they are working on is their children's behaviour. Discipline and training don't need to be dirty words because they aren't always being done by cold hearted abusive monsters. Sometimes they are being done well.

As a caretaker for a special needs child for 5 years, and good friends with mothers of special needs kids, I agree. 

@lilwriter85

I miss those IMDB boards. 

[Koala]

2 hours ago, Pammy said:

Good parents of special needs kids are working their asses off -- and one of the things they are working on is their children's behaviour. Discipline and training don't need to be dirty words because they aren't always being done by cold hearted abusive monsters. Sometimes they are being done well.

When I talk about discipline, I am referring to the tradition meaning:

the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.

I take HUGE issue with using any form of punishment on a severely brain damaged, non-verbal, non-mobile child.  Another child mentioned is in diapers and can't walk or talk.  What punishment could anyone possibly advocate in those situations?

Number one, if they are severely brain damaged, what is their capacity to understand what they are doing "wrong" and why they are being punished?  

Number two, what can a child who can't talk, walk, or swallow possibly do to deserve punishment??

Yes, there are degrees of special needs, but the children described on Lori's blog are way beyond doing anything that would warrant punishment.

[RosyDaisy]

You want to train something, get a dog (although I shudder about what might happen).

Yeah that's an awful thought. There is a correlation between fundies and animal abuse/neglect.

[Pammy]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

When I talk about discipline, I am referring to the tradition meaning:

the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.

I take HUGE issue with using any form of punishment on a severely brain damaged, non-verbal, non-mobile child.  Another child mentioned is in diapers and can't walk or talk.  What punishment could anyone possibly advocate in those situations?

Number one, if they are severely brain damaged, what is their capacity to understand what they are doing "wrong" and why they are being punished?  

Number two, what can a child who can't talk, walk, or swallow possibly do to deserve punishment??

Yes, there are degrees of special needs, but the children described on Lori's blog are way beyond doing anything that would warrant punishment.

I agree with you on the absolute idiocy and cruelty of punishment for children with special needs (especially these special needs, especially corporal punishment).

I disagree with the way you are limiting the semantic range of the word 'discipline' to the aspect that you think of as 'traditional'. Therefore, we are actually, literally, "arguing about semantics" when we obviously agree with each other about this situation.

I just wouldn't like to see a good parent made to feel ashamed because they attempt to work with their special needs child on discipline issues or skills training. Its important work that needs to be done. Parents of kids with special needs are very vulnerable, and they do talk about discipline and training for their kids -- they use those words, but they don't usually mean punishment for breaking rules. It's the luxury of people who haven't raised special needs kids to imagine that working on discipline issues is as simple as punishing kids who break rules.

[SuperNova]

And for her next trick, Lori tells us all about contempt for husbands. I would say teach but there's no actual advice beyond the spoutings of the Pearls. Lori's "advice" is offering the dictionary definition of love. It's pathetic that she offers love as a term, not a feeling. 

"For some reason, it’s easy for us wives to feel that we are better than our husbands so we treat them badly." 

We? Speak for yourself Lori. You hateful piece of shit. I am so sick of her.

 

[Koala]

1 hour ago, Pammy said:

I agree with you on the absolute idiocy and cruelty of punishment for children with special needs (especially these special needs, especially corporal punishment).

I disagree with the way you are limiting the semantic range of the word 'discipline' to the aspect that you think of as 'traditional'. Therefore, we are actually, literally, "arguing about semantics" when we obviously agree with each other about this situation.

I just wouldn't like to see a good parent made to feel ashamed because they attempt to work with their special needs child on discipline issues or skills training. Its important work that needs to be done. Parents of kids with special needs are very vulnerable, and they do talk about discipline and training for their kids -- they use those words, but they don't usually mean punishment for breaking rules. It's the luxury of people who haven't raised special needs kids to imagine that working on discipline issues is as simple as punishing kids who break rules.

Right, but words have meaning, and it's important (especially concerning sensitive topics such as this one), to use appropriate words.  If you Google the word "discipline", what I italicized in my post will be the first thing that pops up.  It's not what I think- it's the meaning of the word.

If someone is insistent upon using a word that doesn't mean what they want it to mean, I can't help that.  People aren't going to read their minds, and they are going to assume they mean it in the traditional sense.

All of that said, I am not referring to any situation other than the very specific ones mentioned in Lori's blog comments, and I very firmly maintain that no sort of discipline or punishment is appropriate for those children (as they were described by their own mothers).

Finally, while I agree that it could feel incredibly vulnerable to be the parent of a special needs child, I would also say that the children themselves are much more vulnerable.  This goes back to why it's so important to use appropriate terms.  If someone is advising the mother of a severely brain damaged child to "discipline them", then for most people that is going to = punish.  That leaves the child vulnerable to being "disciplined" (or punished) for something they aren't even able to control or comprehend.

Question- How do you define the word "discipline", and what are some examples of what you would consider discipline?

[TeddyBonkers]

Today, Lori shows me reason #498 that I don't have a "Godly marriage"- I leave my husband lists. Mr. Bonkers asked what he could do around the house while the kids and I were away. I asked him to hang up pictures and curtains. I had STICKY NOTES on the walls indicating where each picture should go!

But, like the proverbial stopped clock, Lori has been right about one thing- contempt kills marriage. It sure as shit killed hers.

[EowynW]

1 hour ago, SuperNova said:

And for her next trick, Lori tells us all about contempt for husbands. I would say teach but there's no actual advice beyond the spoutings of the Pearls. Lori's "advice" is offering the dictionary definition of love. It's pathetic that she offers love as a term, not a feeling. 

"For some reason, it’s easy for us wives to feel that we are better than our husbands so we treat them badly." 

We? Speak for yourself Lori. You hateful piece of shit. I am so sick of her.

 

IIRC the Pearl's stole this concept from the Gottman Institute. Gottman has repeatedly shown that contempt for each other is one of the top marriage killers. The Pearl's brought up his research in one of their marriage articles. 

I love Gottman. Lori told me on Insty once she does too, but if she really read them she'd hate them. They aren't religiously biased. 

[delphinium65]

1 hour ago, SuperNova said:

And for her next trick, Lori tells us all about contempt for husbands. I would say teach but there's no actual advice beyond the spoutings of the Pearls. Lori's "advice" is offering the dictionary definition of love. It's pathetic that she offers love as a term, not a feeling. 

"For some reason, it’s easy for us wives to feel that we are better than our husbands so we treat them badly." 

We? Speak for yourself Lori. You hateful piece of shit. I am so sick of her.

 

I'm going to partly agree with Lori on this one.  Yes, contempt and lack of appreciation for a partner can kill a relationship.  On the other hand, they might be a symptom of another underlying problem that is already destroying it.  Either way, the answer isn't just 'woman, submit!'  Rather, examine the situation, try to find the reason, then see if that reason can be fixed, instead of slapping a band-aid of submission on top. 

And this goes both ways, men don't get a pass on expressing contempt for women either.  A man has a dick, but there's no excuse for him to be one. 

[ViolaSebastian]

I'm so confused. If, as orthodontic consultant Ken Alexander believes, molestation is okay and totes no big deal and completely normal and widespread, why would it matter if it sleepovers would put kids at greater risk of it? 

[Pammy]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

Right, but words have meaning, and it's important (especially concerning sensitive topics such as this one), to use appropriate words.  If you Google the word "discipline", what I italicized in my post will be the first thing that pops up.  It's not what I think- it's the meaning of the word.

If someone is insistent upon using a word that doesn't mean what they want it to mean, I can't help that.  People aren't going to read their minds, and they are going to assume they mean it in the traditional sense.

All of that said, I am not referring to any situation other than the very specific ones mentioned in Lori's blog comments, and I very firmly maintain that no sort of discipline or punishment is appropriate for those children (as they were described by their own mothers).

Finally, while I agree that it could feel incredibly vulnerable to be the parent of a special needs child, I would also say that the children themselves are much more vulnerable.  This goes back to why it's so important to use appropriate terms.  If someone is advising the mother of a severely brain damaged child to "discipline them", then for most people that is going to = punish.  That leaves the child vulnerable to being "disciplined" (or punished) for something they aren't even able to control or comprehend.

Question- How do you define the word "discipline", and what are some examples of what you would consider discipline?

I can see that there is primary sense to the word 'discipline' -- and I did look it up and find that same quote as the first definition, so I get what you are saying about understanding the word 'traditionally'.

I think the semantics might vary by geography (I'm in Canada) or maybe the people we tend to surround ourselves with. Or, I might be out to lunch (in an echo chamber) and just imagining that the way positive parenting experts and psychologists use the word is much more widespread than it really is.

To me, the statement, "No sort of discipline... is appropriate for those children" -- really seems to mean that no matter what those children do, the parents should take absolutely no action to change their behaviour. The idea of "no sort of discipline" at all seems to rule out so much as saying to the child, "No, honey, don't throw your toys at the pets, it hurts them." (No punishment makes a ton of sense. No discipline is not computing.)

So, I would define a gentle reprimand or an instruction to do something (or not do something) as elements of discipline. Other discipline tools are... modelling, lectures, demonstrations, brain-storming, problem solving, role play, removing problem objects from a child, removing a child from a problem situation, teaching games, skills practice, instruction-following practice, scripting (for children who can talk), empathy development, habit replacement, making amends, incentives and, (occasionally) disincentives /consequences. 

With all of those elements, you might see why it is a problem to try to develop a robust discipline strategy by only asking, "Which consequences should you use / which are off limits / how harsh can you be and when is it ok?" It seems like trying to teach someone to drive by only instructing them how to use the emergency break.

It's not a well-crafted definition, but I'm thinking that discipline means something like: "The strategic actions of a person in authority which are intended to improve or replace an undesirable behaviour, or develop a desirable behaviour in those who are under authority."

Edited to add:

I went researching to see how out to lunch I might be (because I might be!) and found this on WebMD. (Which is fairly mainstream, I think?)

"Discipline is the process of teaching your child what type of behavior is acceptable and what type is not acceptable. In other words, discipline teaches a child to follow rules. Effective discipline uses many different tools, like positive reinforcement, modeling, and a loving and supportive family. Sometimes, punishments are also an effective tool-but that doesn’t mean that good discipline is mostly about punishments."

Which sounds like it confirms my understanding of discipline, but it also sounds like the article 'thinks it needs to be said' which means that maybe it's not the normal way of understanding the word?

Link:

https://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/discipline-tactics

[Coconut Flan]

Carry on here: