Christendom’s Most Eligible Bachelor: Traditional Catholic Looking for Wife Blog

[Palimpsest]

23 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

 I plan to write my dissertation on this). 

I look forward to your dissertation.  I think it will be excellent.   It will probably be completely US focused and that is OK, so long as you acknowledge it as such up front.  

I'm sorry if you hate me for pointing this out, but your perspective is of an important aspect of US Catholicism.  Not of Roman Catholics or Catholicism worldwide.

[Cleopatra7]

53 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I look forward to your dissertation.  I think it will be excellent.   It will probably be completely US focused and that is OK, so long as you acknowledge it as such up front.  

I'm sorry if you hate me for pointing this out, but your perspective is of an important aspect of US Catholicism.  Not of Roman Catholics or Catholicism worldwide.

I should have made clear that my dissertation will be about black American Catholics in the South and how they were influenced by Vatican II and the Civil Rights Movement. I am not trying to draw any generalized conclusions about Catholicism in other parts of the world or even in other parts of the US. I was inspired to write on this topic because currently existing US Catholic history texts and American Catholic discourse are heavily Eurocentric and are particularly biased in favor of the Irish American experience, so I want to rectify this situation. Obviously, other countries and other cultures experienced Vatican II differently, although it seems like traditionalism attracts extreme reactionaries regardlesss of locale, probably because of Archbishop Lefebvre’s influence.

[PennySycamore]

@Cleopatra7,  I don't know what percentage of the population in the area surrounding St Anthony of Padua parish in Greenville SC was Catholic, but the parish itself was historically black.  Jesse Jackson went to St Anthony's parochial school for elementary school and so did my old co-Leader's kids in LLL.  My co-Leader, though, is white.

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I should have made clear that my dissertation will be about black American Catholics in the South and how they were influenced by Vatican II and the Civil Rights Movement. I am not trying to draw any generalized conclusions about Catholicism in other parts of the world or even in other parts of the US. I was inspired to write on this topic because currently existing US Catholic history texts and American Catholic discourse are heavily Eurocentric and are particularly biased in favor of the Irish American experience, so I want to rectify this situation. Obviously, other countries and other cultures experienced Vatican II differently, although it seems like traditionalism attracts extreme reactionaries regardlesss of locale, probably because of Archbishop Lefebvre’s influence.

Will we get to read your dissertation?  I am very interested.  I'm not gonna lie, I know very little about black Catholics.   Only recently, when I moved to a new town, did I come across a majority black Catholic church.   I was surprised and immediately not sure why.  My personal exposure, of course, is the answer.   When I went to New Orleans was the only time I didn't assume anyone's religion because of overwhelming Catholicism of both black and white residents of that amazing city.  Idk, just the majority probably was from history and my reading about NO.  I'd love to hear your words!

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Being a Catholic in the largely Protestant South has always been.....ummmm ..... interesting   If you grew up in a small town like I did, you were (and are) always outnumbered by the multiple Protestant denominations, including in some places serious fundamentalists -- snake handlers, speaking in tongues, etc.

There have always been large Catholic populations in Baltimore, New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston, Mobile, Atlanta, etc. but rural and small town South is 99% Protestant.. It's really odd being part of one of the 2 or 3 Catholic families in town. Not a lot of chances to meet that nice Catholic boy to date. And, at least in my day, Southern Baptist  mothers aren't thrilled if their precious son was dating 'the Catholic girl'.  "They worship idols you know. Who knows what goes in in those churches of their's." 

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I was inspired to write on this topic because currently existing US Catholic history texts and American Catholic discourse are heavily Eurocentric and are particularly biased in favor of the Irish American experience, so I want to rectify this situation.

Count me among those looking forward to reading your work! Go get 'em, @Cleopatra7.

I'm currently reading through Michael Twitty's The Cooking Gene ( a fascinating, sprawling book, with lots to think about) and he mentions African Catholicism in the context of enslaved peoples of the Caribbean & New Orleans, and their influence on foodways & cookery. 

Re: Irish-American Catholicism. I recall my Medieval History prof in college (himself a High Episcopalian!) saying that Catholicism in the US would have been a very different thing had Continental Catholicism (particularly French or Italian Catholicism) been the dominant influence. In his view, the Irish were super-fixated on sexual morality (or lack thereof) whereas other European Catholic churches are far more, uh, tolerant.

[fundiefun]

5 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I should have made clear that my dissertation will be about black American Catholics in the South and how they were influenced by Vatican II and the Civil Rights Movement. I am not trying to draw any generalized conclusions about Catholicism in other parts of the world or even in other parts of the US. I was inspired to write on this topic because currently existing US Catholic history texts and American Catholic discourse are heavily Eurocentric and are particularly biased in favor of the Irish American experience, so I want to rectify this situation. Obviously, other countries and other cultures experienced Vatican II differently, although it seems like traditionalism attracts extreme reactionaries regardlesss of locale, probably because of Archbishop Lefebvre’s influence.

My auntie is a black Catholic from Misssissippi she was around during the civil rights era as a teen she is a phenomenal women who is still strong in her faith. 

[Hane]

@Cleopatra7, the subject of your thesis sounds absolutely brilliant! You’ve just summed up much of American Catholicism perfectly. Here in the Northeast, there are relatively few black Catholics, although I know of at least one majority black parish. A woman I met at a party told me that many people outside her parish assume she’s a convert. 

[subsaharanafrica]

16 hours ago, Howl said:

Very interesting, and wonderful. I assumed that most of the early settlers were all Lutherans, like many of my ancestors.  

Oddly, I tend to generalize early Texas settlers as Catholic, at least in name only since under Mexican law you had to be Catholic to be able to own land. 

[Howl]

38 minutes ago, subsaharanafrica said:

Oddly, I tend to generalize early Texas settlers as Catholic, at least in name only since under Mexican law you had to be Catholic to be able to own land. 

Mine were all Republic of Texas and Texas statehood arrivals, after 1836, and were in the waves of German (Alsace-Lorraine) immigrants between the late 1830s and early 1850s.  Lots of Lutherans, although my grandmother married in an "Evangelical" church.  There is also speculation that there may have been a Free Thinker or two among those who were in the Boerne area. 

 

[Foudeb]

47 minutes ago, Howl said:

Mine were all Republic of Texas and Texas statehood arrivals, after 1836, and were in the waves of German (Alsace-Lorraine) immigrants between the late 1830s and early 1850s. 

 

That's French not German 

[ViolaSebastian]

42 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

That's French not German 

Woo boy, I think this should count as a dreaded topic of doom. 

[Howl]

4 hours ago, Foudeb said:

That's French not German 

They were German speaking people from Alsace-Lorraine.   

[Foudeb]

Sorry to belabour the point but it did cause 2 world wars so I won't be the first to do it.

Germany didn't exist before 1871 so your ancestors could not have been German. Alsace-Lorraine was very much part of France in 1830-1850, just like, say, Brittany or the south (where Breton and Occitan respectively were just as widely spoken as the Alsacian patois).

And they had really thought of their home as Germanic, you would now be referring to the region as Elsaß - Lothringen.

(said with love and respect)

[Pianokeeper]

1 hour ago, Foudeb said:

Sorry to belabour the point but it did cause 2 world wars so I won't be the first to do it.

Germany didn't exist before 1871 so your ancestors could not have been German. Alsace-Lorraine was very much part of France in 1830-1850, just like, say, Brittany or the south (where Breton and Occitan respectively were just as widely spoken as the Alsacian patois).

And they had really thought of their home as Germanic, you would now be referring to the region as Elsaß - Lothringen.

(said with love and respect)

I'm not touching Alsace-Lorraine with a ten foot pole, but German identity and to some extent government were certainly established by 1815... See also Deutscher Bund ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation ). 

In fact, most of my ancestors immigrated to Brazil around the 1850s, 1860s or so... and they identified as German speaking and German cultured.

[FundieCentral]

Haha, I stumbled right into a great conversation. I'm from the border region right by the Elsass, and the population is partially ethnically German, partially ethnically French, and nowadays very much bilingual. With the EU the old contentions also don't matter, so thank God for that. It's been a turbulent couple of centuries. 

I will say for completion's sake that the Elsass was effectively German (Holy Roman Empire) for almost the entirety of the medieval ages (11th century onward) until the 30 years war. France got in the the Peace of Westphalia, and then it changed hands every war after. 

Also, some branch of my family were Catholic and settled in the Houston and New Orleans areas. So anecdotal evidence for the above. 

Lastly, the conversation about Irish Catholicism: Fascinating! But it makes perfect sense then why in Ireland people are still so concerned about sexual morality. I mean I don't want to say much, but it my particular branch of Catholicism  is a little different. If I were to summarize it: 

Basic Principles 
1) God made wine and sent his son Jesus Christ to introduce the rest of the world to the beauty of wine-drinking - hence, consumption of wine is encouraged at all times and all occasions. 
2) Jesus was a social butterfly and went to parties all the time, thus celebrations and parties are highly encouraged. 
3) What is Sunday confession for if you don't do something you have to confess Monday through Saturday. 
4) Children are awesome, thus sex is awesome, just keep it in your pants until your married - if you don't make it, we still love procreation as a concept so we want all the kids. 
5) If God wanted us to be stupid, he wouldn't have made the Bible as one of the most complex, dense, linguistically demanding books in history, so it's our obligation to spend many hours reading exegetical texts and expert analysis to uncover its meaning. 
6) We LOVE the pope. The Pope is our #1 celebrity, like almost God. Right after Mary and Jesus. 
7) We love Mary. She's strong and beautiful and a real badass, so we put on her on every wall. 
8) Charity is the most important thing. We love charity. We have kindergartens, schools, universities, hospitals, hospices, counseling centers, treatment centers, outreach, after school programs - Jesus spent every waking minute doing these things, so they're an absolute priority if we want to be more like Jesus. 
9) We don't understand silent orders. At all. See points 1, 2, and 8. 

Obviously humorous, but it's fascinating how differently people experience catholicism! I for my part am a very happy Catholic, even if not exactly practicing.

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by FundieCentral

[morfydd]

My dad was raised Catholic but converted to Lutheran in college.  When he, very nervously, told his mom, she said, "Well, my father was a Protestant, I married a Protestant, so I guess I owe the world a Protestant.  And your brother's still Catholic, so it's ok."

He converted to Presbyterian when he married my mom, whose family is a mix of Presbyterian and Quaker.  I went to services with family regularly, to Mass with my Grandma sometimes, and to chapel at Episcopal grade school, was the world's laziest pagan for a while, and am now more-or-less comfortably agnostic.

For a while I wasn't allowed to tell my Grandma I was in Rainbow Girls (affiliated with Masons), but I finally invited her to my Worthy Advisor installation (inauguration ceremony) and she said, "oh, I can't make that weekend, but congrats - I gave a speech at a local Job's Daughters  (the other Masonic girls club) installation last month!" 

At her funeral my female Catholic cousin did one reading and I did the other and I don't recall any issues one way or the other over communion.  

[Petronella]

On 8 December 2017 at 5:20 AM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I sometimes feel that way when my mother-in-law refers to infant baptism (like my Presbyterian parents had done for me as a baby) as "sprinkling". I may have chosen to leave the Presbyterian church and have an immersion baptism as an adult, but I see no reason to disparage their beliefs. 

I'm a bit late replying to this, but I have heard the term "sprinkling" very commonly used and not at all disparagingly. It's just descriptive. If you say your in-laws had a rude tone, I believe you, but the word itself is a very normal word for non-immersion baptism. (We have a mixed church background with lots of baptism-practice variety.)

[PennySycamore]

@Petronella,   bu when a "baptism by immersion only" says sprinkling, it's quite often disparaging.  These people don't even realize that Catholics don't sprinkle ordinarily, but pour the baptismal waters.  There are three forms of baptism:  infusion or pouring, immersion, and aspersion or sprinkling.  All three are considered valid by the Catholic Church.  Btw, my dad said that he thought there was evidence of something other than baptism by immersion being practiced in the Bible as Paul baptized people in prison.  Quite frequently, my dad wasn't a very good Baptist. No wonder he was a Methodist when he died.

[ViolaSebastian]

I may have told this story before, but one of my Methodist great-aunts married a Baptist minister. She’d only had the “sprinkle” baptism in the sign of the cross on her forehead, so her future husband told her only that part of her forehead would get into heaven. The mental picture of all these disembodied Methodist foreheads floating around Heaven is amazing. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by ViolaSebastian

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Growing up Catholic surrounded by Protestants, Evangelicals and Pentecostal I was often reminded I wasn't baptised because I was "sprinkled" as an infant, not immersed. 

Of course I was also told I wasn't a real Christian  because i wasn't saved/ born again and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, preferably during an altar call in front of the whole church.

[Hane]

A bit OT:  I was raised Catholic, and so were my daughter and her husband. Not long after they were married, all three of us, independently of each other, started looking into Unitarian-Universalism. When their baby was born, they decided to have him dedicated in the UU Church. The minister, knowing about our families of origin, included scriptural readings that would be familiar to our Catholic families. Part of the ceremony included using a rose to sprinkle water on the baby’s forehead. 

Four years later, my grandson started attending a Catholic parochial school. One day he came home and asked me, “When I was a baby, did somebody put water on my head?” I figured out that he meant, was he baptized—he heard about baptism at school. I was able to tell him that, yes, he was “sprinkled,” and that at his dedication, his mother sang and played a beautiful song she had written for him.

[Granwych]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 3:24 PM, keen23 said:

There are multiple versions of the Lord's Prayer

and please forgive us our sins

as we forgive those who sin against us.

vs

and please forgive us our trespasses

as we forgive those who trespass against us.

I've even seen:

and please forgive us our wrongs

as we forgive those who wrong against us.

 

As  Catholic middle schoolers, we girls would enunciate the phrase "and lead a SNOT into temptation," and roll eyes at whichever snot we were snarking on.  Good times!

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:05 AM, Foudeb said:

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 7:17 AM, Howl said:

were in the waves of German (Alsace-Lorraine) immigrants between the late 1830s and early 1850s. 

 

That's French not German 

Didn't the German  shepherd dog used to be called an Alsatian?  (Off topic, I know, but I'm just curious)

[Georgiana]

When she was younger, my (non-Catholic) cousin enjoyed going to mass with my grandparents because she thought the priests wore "beautiful dresses" and she liked looking at them.

[PennySycamore]

@Granwych, yep , German Shepherd Dogs used to be called Alsatians, particularly in Britain and Ireland.  The name Alsatian came about during the anti-German sentiment of Would War I.  That name was used in the UK until 1977 and was still parenthetically referred to as Alsatian until 2010.

Looking at the Wikipedia article on GSDs makes me a bit sad as my daughter and her family lost their GSD less than a week ago.  She had lymphoma.  My daughter and her husband got this sweet girl when my daughter was pregnant with their first baby.  My grandkids grew up with this wonderful dog.

Edited December 13, 2017 by PennySycamore
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