Zoey Joy Webster Is Now Here (update)

[lizzybee]

Yeah, but the problem is that almost every church I know of here in the bible belt holds those beliefs. I'd say they're conservative churches or even traditional churches, but I would not have classified them as fundamentalists. By that definition I'm a fundie because my church has that as part of their beliefs lists too. In Alabama, I'd be hard pressed to find a church that didn't have that on their beliefs page. Same with my home state of Georgia. I'm sure I can find a church without, but they're going to be in the minority. Not trying to be contentious, but that would classify the vast majority of Christian churches I am aware of as fundie, and in that case, I have found via the above description that...most Christians are fundie? Yes? No? 

[formergothardite]

I'm in the Bible Belt too and yes, most churches do teach dangerous and hateful things like that, but there are churches that don't. If a church is going to use their religion to treat that an entire group of people are less than(and in some cases claim that it isn't even an option for people in that group to even exist), then I would say that falls on the fundamentalists side. Not being snarky, but why wouldn't it be? And the whole "pro-life" movement is VERY anti-woman, again, why isn't that fundie? The anti-gay movement drives people to suicide, it destroys lives. The anti-abortion movement makes the lives of women, especially poor women, difficult. Have you read what happens to women who want abortions but can't get them? It usually doesn't end in a nice way. 

The problem is that these fundamental beliefs are so prevalent in many areas that it is easy to pretend that they aren't that bad, when they truly are. 

These sorts of churches can get back to me on being pro-life when their church statements say "We believe life begins at conception and that all lives are equal. Therefore we support research into preventing miscarriages since this is an issue killing vast amounts of children each year. We also support programs that provide free birth control since research shows that easy access to birth control will lower abortion rates. We believe babies outside the womb are just as important as those inside, therefore we support all government programs that provide help to pregnant women and children. While we do not agree with abortion, we understand that making it illegal will not end abortion, it will just put the lives of women at risk."

[Hisey]

On 2/11/2018 at 5:36 PM, HermioneSparrow said:

A little reminder that just because Alyssa wears pants doesn't mean she's any less fundie than her parents..

 

Well, actually it means she is 0.1111111% less fundie. Because she doesn't believe that women should be manipulated or guilted in wearing certain clothes. She is a tiny, tiny bit less fundie.

However, if she believes that crap her church promotes, her other beliefs are hateful. So, if she was going to die from her current pregnancy, she'd opt to die rather than abort? 

 

[Melissa1977]

6 hours ago, Hisey said:

 

However, if she believes that crap her church promotes, her other beliefs are hateful. So, if she was going to die from her current pregnancy, she'd opt to die rather than abort? 

 

 Remember Michelle had a c-section even though Josie was barely capable to live. Not an abortion, and they were lucky, but the chances of  such a tiny baby to die were high. But Michelle was sick and doctors put her first. Anyway, if mother dies fetus dies, so it's ridiculous not to abort if you're in real danger, because the baby can't be saved anyway.  Fundies can be extremely hypocrites and despite some of them are crazy, I bet  most would do whatever for saving the mother and just kept the secret*. 

*I'm talking about extreme situations where mother's life is in real danger.

[ophelia]

9 hours ago, formergothardite said:

We need to stop accepting that idea that being anti-gay and anti-woman isn't fundie.  

8 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Eh, but there are plenty of non-religious people who hold those views also.  I think we call them bigots.

I agree with both of you. It makes me sick that homophobia and misogyny are on the rise again and seem to be accepted in many circles of society. In Germany you can also add racism, antisemitism and islamophobia to the mix since we now again have a right wing party in parliament with close ties to Neonazi and nationalist groups. It makes me so mad. I never felt anxious about the future. Maybe about my personal life: not finding a partner, having a family, etc. But never in wider or global sense. But this changed the last years.

 

[Illmarryyoujana]

11 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Are they trying to force the rest of us to follow their beliefs by doing things like stripping women of their rights over their bodies and trying to prevent gay marriage? Would they force an 11 year old to have a baby instead of allowing an abortion? Would they use their religion to deny an entire group of people equality? Are they saying gay people aren't that much different than pedophiles? Alyssa's church would answer yes to all those questions and I would say that is pretty damn fundie. Alyssa's church is also KJV only.

I would agree that these things are common among evangelical churches, but just because lots of people support the idea doesn't make it less fundie. We need to stop accepting that idea that being anti-gay and anti-woman isn't fundie.  

 

Again I ask, are we counting basically all conservative baptist evangelical churches as fundie? Because I wouldn't. You can hold those beliefs and not be fundamentalist. I think what we need to stop doing is thinking only small subgroups think this way. 

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, ophelia said:

I agree with both of you. It makes me sick that homophobia and misogyny are on the rise again and seem to be accepted in many circles of society. In Germany you can also add racism, antisemitism and islamophobia to the mix since we now again have a right wing party in parliament with close ties to Neonazi and nationalist groups. It makes me so mad. I never felt anxious about the future. Maybe about my personal life: not finding a partner, having a family, etc. But never in wider or global sense. But this changed the last years.

 

I don't know what's happening in Europe. We Europeans aged 20-40 are supposed to have been raised in democratic values but I can see around lots of people voting for right wing parties, not to get a better society but just to make things difficult for foreigners. The fact that these parties make life also worse for national workers doesn't mind for them, so not only they are haters, but also not very smart, which is scaring considering they are thousands or even millions. Also misoginy in a modern way is raising (I mean modern because men doesn't want to be the only providers no more, so everybody wants women to have professional careers, but still consider us a sexual trophy in some senses, violence against women is still too common, and pornography and prostitution are getting extremelly agressive and socially accepted).

Yeah, I also suffer when I think about the future. At least your country is rich; mine has been spoiled because the corruption and when I think about my kids future, I'm really worried. But even in the worst escenarios, some people can succeed, so I think we still can have some hope and keep working to make things better.

[Melissa1977]

I think Alyssa does her way and takes what pleases her. She married young and changed her clothing style because she wanted to, despite she had been teached jeans were ungodly. And I'm sure that if she is really fed up with the kids, she will send them to a school. I see her very similar to Kelly, despite their ways of life will probably be different.

Alyssa is confortable with a fundie church because the hateful beliefs about gays have not any impact in her life. So she doesn't need to take a decision about changing the kind of church she attends. In my opinion, she's self-centered and she's going to do the changes that make her life better. And as she doesn't care about ideologies or human rights, she's keeping fundie because it's the easiest way for her.

 

[Nikedagain?]

21 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Eh, but there are plenty of non-religious people who hold those views also.  I think we call them bigots.

I doubt you can hear me, but I'm hollerin' HAY-MAYUNN

[just_ordinary]

I am conflicted. While I don’t agree with those beliefs I think one can visit a very conservative church without living what is preached. All the Catholics and Protestants I have ever encountered live like that. No one is fastening, no one regulates their sexuality because of their church and they vote what they want not what matches their religion. And of course our churches don’t preach pro-abortion or pro-sex before marriage. Especially the catholic standards are well known. People just don’t care. I can really not relate to the American religious culture in that regard.

[HermioneSparrow]

I can't even believe you guys are making excuses for Alyssa. She has NEVER EVER shown to have different beliefs than her parents. The opposite actually, so far she's living the quiverfull fundie life with cute clothes.. That's all. She married young to an ATI guy and quit fundie college, has a 3rd kid on the way and counting, preparing Allie to be sister mom, plans to homeschool and attends a very fundie hateful church but just because she and her daughters wear skinny jeans somehow that makes her hateful views less horrid. Bates' apologists are the worst.

[Hisey]

4 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I can't even believe you guys are making excuses for Alyssa. She has NEVER EVER shown to have different beliefs than her parents. The opposite actually, so far she's living the quiverfull fundie life with cute clothes.. That's all. She married young to an ATI guy and quit fundie college, has a 3rd kid on the way and counting, preparing Allie to be sister mom, plans to homeschool and attends a very fundie hateful church but just because she and her daughters wear skinny jeans somehow that makes her hateful views less horrid. Bates' apologists are the worst.

No, the worst are people who ask a question about Alyssa ("Could she be slightly less fundie than the rest?") and get insulted and called an "apologist."

It's really unlike that all 19 are going to share the exact some views. Some are going to be more fundie, some less. I doubt any of them will be voting Democratic.

It's a valid question to ask about Alyssa. She wears pants. Her girls wear pants. She seems to be intelligent. She has worked (cleaning offices?) while married but bf kids. Best of all, she is very young. I'd put my money on her becoming fundie-lite, as opposed to, say, Gil.

I don't know what you mean about preparing Allie to be a sister-mom. What signs of that have you seen? In all the pics I've seen, she's saying Allie is cute, or giving her ice cream--all of which are appropriate ways to treat a two-year old. I haven't seen any pics of Allie holding a sponge with a caption about how she is "training to become a good helpmeet one day!"

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, Hisey said:

No, the worst are people who ask a question about Alyssa ("Could she be slightly less fundie than the rest?") and get insulted and called an "apologist."

It's really unlike that all 19 are going to share the exact some views. Some are going to be more fundie, some less. I doubt any of them will be voting Democratic.

It's a valid question to ask about Alyssa. She wears pants. Her girls wear pants. She seems to be intelligent. She has worked (cleaning offices?) while married but bf kids. Best of all, she is very young. I'd put my money on her becoming fundie-lite, as opposed to, say, Gil.

I don't know what you mean about preparing Allie to be a sister-mom. What signs of that have you seen? In all the pics I've seen, she's saying Allie is cute, or giving her ice cream--all of which are appropriate ways to treat a two-year old.

People being called Bates apologists aren't asking, though. They're assuming. It's stuff like, "Alyssa is totally fundie lite now. She and her girls dress so cute! She probably just wants to have her babies young/till she gets a boy, then she'll stop. Check out those heels. So glad she's not into her family's crap. You go Alyssa!!" That's what gets the most push back.

She married into an ATI family at the age of 20. She's had three babies in very quick succession. She attends an extremely conservative church. Her father-in-law is known as 'Taliban Dan'. But it's cool that she wears skinny jeans, I guess.

[VelociRapture]

2 minutes ago, Hisey said:

No, the worst are people who ask a question about Alyssa ("Could she be slightly less fundie than the rest?") and get insulted and called an "apologist."

It's really unlike that all 19 are going to share the exact some views. Some are going to be more fundie, some less. I doubt any of them will be voting Democratic.

It's a valid question to ask about Alyssa. She wears pants. Her girls wear pants. She seems to be intelligent. She has worked (cleaning offices?) while married but bf kids. Best of all, she is very young. I'd put my money on her becoming fundie-lite, as opposed to, say, Gil.

I don't know what you mean about preparing Allie to be a sister-mom. What signs of that have you seen? In all the pics I've seen, she's saying Allie is cute, or giving her ice cream--all of which are appropriate ways to treat a two-year old.

I believe Alyssa mentioned in an interview or something that Allie was helping with Lexi. I don’t know what was specifically said (someone else might), so that could have been a completely innocent statement. A lot of older siblings like to help their parents take care of a younger sibling because it makes them feel important and involved. However, given the beliefs John and Alyssa were raised with as well as what we know about them it does make me to at least question how much and what type of help Allie provides or will be expected to provide as she gets older. 

As for the clothing choices, IBLP has very much loosened up in recent years. I believe other posters have stated that the skirts only thing was more of a recommendation than anything. The only times it seems to be a requirement is for official IBLP events or those working at Head Quarters. Alyssa was either fortunate enough or smart enough to marry into a family with much looser attire standards than her own, but her in-laws are no less Fundie than her own parents are - her FIL, Taliban Dan Webster, in particular has a strong fundamentalist streak to his politics.

(And I’m unsure about the part where you mentioned her “bf” her child. Is that a reference to breastfeeding? If so, I’m not sure if she chooses to breastfeed or if she chooses to use formula. She and John do appear to work fairly hard though. I’m not sure how long Alyssa will be capable of participating in the cleaning business though if they continue having children, especially if they follow through on Alyssa homeschooling. She may just not have the time to juggle everything.)

[nickelodeon]

39 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I'd put my money on her becoming fundie-lite, as opposed to, say, Gil.

But as some of the people upthread have been debating, if "fundie-lite" = practicing religion that allows women to wear heels and work part-time but is also violently misogynistic, homophobic, and actively committed to having those prejudices reflected in legislature....... does that actually make Alyssa any more appealing to us as critics of fundamentalism? In this political climate, is that good enough?

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

In this political climate, is that good enough?

So much this. I used to be far more "tolerant" of conservative religious folks. "Live and let live! They're not hurting anyone!" Except they are. They're hurting a lot of people. And their right to their own moral/philosophical/spiritual beliefs should not supersede the rest of society's rights. It's time that the free pass extended to conservative Christians for pretty much everything ends. It's destroying society, and that is not hyperbole.

Yes, there's some argument as to what constitutes fundie vs. fundie lite vs. conservative Christianity. But it also changes over time. The equivalent of fundamentalists 300 years ago would probably think the fundies of today were unforgiveably and shockingly liberal. Believing that homosexuals should not have equal rights, abortion should never be legal in any circumstance, evolution should not be taught to children, beating your children is okay, and husbands have authority over their wives, may have been closer to the mainstream 50 years ago. But beliefs like that are becoming more and more extreme and on the fringe, and rightfully so. I don't care if every church in Alabama believes it - that shit is fundamentalism.

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am conflicted. While I don’t agree with those beliefs I think one can visit a very conservative church without living what is preached. All the Catholics and Protestants I have ever encountered live like that. No one is fastening, no one regulates their sexuality because of their church and they vote what they want not what matches their religion. And of course our churches don’t preach pro-abortion or pro-sex before marriage. Especially the catholic standards are well known. People just don’t care. I can really not relate to the American religious culture in that regard.

I understand your point, but while It works when talking about catholics, It doesn't work on protestants. Catholic church has only one point of view, you have the same kind of mass in every country, Pope set the rules, etc. I know there have been some exceptions (liberation theology, communist priests, etc) but in general, if you go to church, you cannot choose what message you want to listen, so you go to the nearest church and it's all. 

However, prostestants have a lot of different cults and opinions. In US you really can choose a church that fits your ideology. So you can bet what do people think/vote, based on the church they're attending. Plus there're lots of churches in US, while in the Catholic countries there're few (all official and Vatican approved), because people cannot set a church by themselves. A church in a mall? My grandpas would turn in his grave!

[just_ordinary]

45 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I understand your point, but while It works when talking about catholics, It doesn't work on protestants. Catholic church has only one point of view, you have the same kind of mass in every country, Pope set the rules, etc. I know there have been some exceptions (liberation theology, communist priests, etc) but in general, if you go to church, you cannot choose what message you want to listen, so you go to the nearest church and it's all. 

However, prostestants have a lot of different cults and opinions. In US you really can choose a church that fits your ideology. So you can bet what do people think/vote, based on the church they're attending. Plus there're lots of churches in US, while in the Catholic countries there're few (all official and Vatican approved), because people cannot set a church by themselves. A church in a mall? My grandpas would turn in his grave!

Thanks for your explanation. Here everyone just goes to the next church (if at all). The American way of living ones religion (not all and of course not everyone is religious) is so different. I have no idea what religion most people in my life have (apart from family). It is just nothing we really talk about and it doesn’t structure our life in a way others can see it.

So while I believe Alyssa and John are Fundies and it would have to take a lot to just be very conservative (what I do always hope for) I find it hard sometimes to draw the same conclusions as others from certain things they do. Visiting a very conservative church would not lead me to think someone is actually 100% on board on what they say and live and vote like this. So thank you for the information that in your country it seems to be very different.

[HermioneSparrow]

50 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Thanks for your explanation. Here everyone just goes to the next church (if at all). The American way of living ones religion (not all and of course not everyone is religious) is so different. I have no idea what religion most people in my life have (apart from family). It is just nothing we really talk about and it doesn’t structure our life in a way others can see it.

So while I believe Alyssa and John are Fundies and it would have to take a lot to just be very conservative (what I do always hope for) I find it hard sometimes to draw the same conclusions as others from certain things they do. Visiting a very conservative church would not lead me to think someone is actually 100% on board on what they say and live and vote like this. So thank you for the information that in your country it seems to be very different.

Yes, I agree if maybe we're talking about ordinary people but we cannot analize and criticize these extreme fundamentalists like the rest who are not really that religious and just go to the nearest church. Alyssa Bates and John Webster grew up in families with hateful damaging beliefs and they haven't shown the slightest change of direction in their new family, they support their parents, their views and way of life. The fact they still attend a fundie church is a big proof of their personal views.

The Websters just modernized the exterior look of a fundie family.

[Hisey]

5 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

But as some of the people upthread have been debating, if "fundie-lite" = practicing religion that allows women to wear heels and work part-time but is also violently misogynistic, homophobic, and actively committed to having those prejudices reflected in legislature....... does that actually make Alyssa any more appealing to us as critics of fundamentalism? In this political climate, is that good enough?

Why would it matter whether Alyssa is more appealing to you? 

If she is fundie-lite, she is fundie-lite. To me, it just means she holds a small quantity of hateful beliefs. 

Do you actually believe that all fundies are exactly the same amount of hateful? Of course not. If there have to be fundies in this political climate, I'd rather they be fundie lites than fundies. If you have to eat something rotten, I'd rather it be half-rotten than fully rotten.

Fundies tar all feminists with the same brush, although they vary widely. I refused to show the same lack of critical thinking skills.

I didn't say, "She's fundie lite and I therefore wholeheartedly approve of her, plus I like her clothes." Seems like that's what you are hearing.

I just said, "She may not be as fundie as the rest."

[HermioneSparrow]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

Why would it matter whether Alyssa is more appealing to you? 

If she is fundie-lite, she is fundie-lite. To me, it just means she holds a small quantity of hateful beliefs. 

Do you actually believe that all fundies are exactly the same amount of hateful? Of course not. If there have to be fundies in this political climate, I'd rather they be fundie lites than fundies. If you have to eat something rotten, I'd rather it be half-rotten than fully rotten.

Fundies tar all feminists with the same brush, although they vary widely. I refused to show the same lack of critical thinking skills.

I didn't say, "She's fundie lite and I therefore wholeheartedly approve of her, plus I like her clothes." Seems like that's what you are hearing.

I just said, "She may not be as fundie as the rest."

And we're saying there's not any indication of her moving towards fundie lite but you are entitled to have your opinion... I just hope the Bates forum doesn't turn into a fan forum, as far as I know FJ discusses the DANGERS of fundamentalism and the Bates are very very dangerous, you all need to keep that in mind when the cute outfits blind you.

/end of my discussion

[nickelodeon]

29 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I didn't say, "She's fundie lite and I therefore wholeheartedly approve of her, plus I like her clothes." Seems like that's what you are hearing.

I just said, "She may not be as fundie as the rest."

Sorry to misconstrue you sis.

The point I was making was that, in my opinion, Alyssa or Jinger or other fundies "going fundie-lite" isn't something worth celebrating if "going fundie-lite" doesn't mean that they're changing a part of their life that actually matters. If they're wearing skinny jeans but still want me disenfranchised and/or dead by law, then who cares? How is a "fundie-lite" better than a "fundie" in that case?

[lizzybee]

This conversation has made me uncomfortable, but I think that's a good thing. Honestly, it's caused me a week of re-evaluation that is still developing. I've been laboring under the misunderstanding that because I'm not part of a KJV, fundamentalist in the name church that the church itself is not fundamentalist. Now, I'm forced to admit that under those descriptions that I've never not gone to a fundamentalist church. I go to one of the largest non-denominational churches in the country and it holds and teaches those same views.

Oddly, I've watched both the basic and advanced seminar with my husband and even pointed out to him multiple times that our pastors have taught almost verbatim the same things that Gothard has taught, and we've wondered aloud if they'd watched those seminars too. I'm not sure why this wasn't troubling. Maybe not wanting to make the connection or wishing to think it through? Thinking, "well, that's just Christianity." I guess, in a sense it is my Christianity. It's honestly never been presented to me in any other way (lacking those viewpoints). 

As someone who has grown up in the baptist church, no, I've never been to a church that doesn't have that exact list of beliefs or similar to the one that Alyssa's church does. Evaluating what that means for me and my relationship with Christianity hasn't been pleasant. I'm not sure how I want to move forward now that I'm honestly looking the horse in the mouth. I've had a troubled relationship with my faith life anyway in that it sort of ebbs and flows. I tend to cling to it when I'm feeling threatened, experiencing anxiety, or depressed, and it allows me to turn off my brain for a bit and relax. But as a rational and thinking person I do have a lot of issues on the teachings and how it feels like a never-ending regurgitation of the same things over and over, a lot of them controversial in the larger scheme of our current cultural climate. 

Anyway, you guys have gotten through to me and while I haven't particularly enjoyed working out my thoughts and feelings here, I think I should thank you for making me uncomfortable enough to be honest with myself. Not sure what that means for me faith-wise, but hopefully it will make me a better human, which ultimately may be what's more important. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, lizzybee said:

This conversation has made me uncomfortable, but I think that's a good thing. Honestly, it's caused me a week of re-evaluation that is still developing. I've been laboring under the misunderstanding that because I'm not part of a KJV, fundamentalist in the name church that the church itself is not fundamentalist. Now, I'm forced to admit that under those descriptions that I've never not gone to a fundamentalist church. I go to one of the largest non-denominational churches in the country and it holds and teaches those same views.

Oddly, I've watched both the basic and advanced seminar with my husband and even pointed out to him multiple times that our pastors have taught almost verbatim the same things that Gothard has taught, and we've wondered aloud if they'd watched those seminars too. I'm not sure why this wasn't troubling. Maybe not wanting to make the connection or wishing to think it through? Thinking, "well, that's just Christianity." I guess, in a sense it is my Christianity. It's honestly never been presented to me in any other way (lacking those viewpoints). 

As someone who has grown up in the baptist church, no, I've never been to a church that doesn't have that exact list of beliefs or similar to the one that Alyssa's church does. Evaluating what that means for me and my relationship with Christianity hasn't been pleasant. I'm not sure how I want to move forward now that I'm honestly looking the horse in the mouth. I've had a troubled relationship with my faith life anyway in that it sort of ebbs and flows. I tend to cling to it when I'm feeling threatened, experiencing anxiety, or depressed, and it allows me to turn off my brain for a bit and relax. But as a rational and thinking person I do have a lot of issues on the teachings and how it feels like a never-ending regurgitation of the same things over and over, a lot of them controversial in the larger scheme of our current cultural climate. 

Anyway, you guys have gotten through to me and while I haven't particularly enjoyed working out my thoughts and feelings here, I think I should thank you for making me uncomfortable enough to be honest with myself. Not sure what that means for me faith-wise, but hopefully it will make me a better human, which ultimately may be what's more important. 

It takes a strong person to confront their upbringing and religious beliefs, especially in a public setting. Whatever you guys end up deciding I hope it brings you happiness and peace.  

[Hisey]

On 2/16/2018 at 3:56 PM, HermioneSparrow said:

And we're saying there's not any indication of her moving towards fundie lite but you are entitled to have your opinion... I just hope the Bates forum doesn't turn into a fan forum, as far as I know FJ discusses the DANGERS of fundamentalism and the Bates are very very dangerous, you all need to keep that in mind when the cute outfits blind you.

/end of my discussion

Speechless here. You obviously don't know me. I don't even *notice* people's cute outfits, let alone be influenced by them.  Cute outfits? Who cares? I care whether a woman is somewhat less oppressed by feeling the emotional freedom to dress in jeans. 

All this talk about outfits baffles me. What does it have to do with anything?

On 2/16/2018 at 4:04 PM, nickelodeon said:

Sorry to misconstrue you sis.

The point I was making was that, in my opinion, Alyssa or Jinger or other fundies "going fundie-lite" isn't something worth celebrating if "going fundie-lite" doesn't mean that they're changing a part of their life that actually matters. If they're wearing skinny jeans but still want me disenfranchised and/or dead by law, then who cares? How is a "fundie-lite" better than a "fundie" in that case?

Celebrating? I don't see any celebrations. 

I see a few people pointing out that Alyssa feels the freedom to deviate slightly from the way her parents told her she *had* to dress. I'm glad she feels that freedom. I'm also glad for her little girls. When my girls were little, I almost always dressed them in pants or overalls, so they could have the freedom to run and play.

That small amount of improvement pleases me, but . . . celebrations?. . .hardly.