Zoey Joy Webster Is Now Here (update)

[Carm_88]

Something has always bothered me about the assumption that Alyssa is going fundie lite, I didn't know what it was for a time, but I think I've got it. A lot of people say that it doesn't come down to pants, but it really does seem to. Why? Well people say it's because Alyssa works. Well, so does Erin, no one says she's changing. Yes, she's working at home teaching piano lessons but she is still getting paid for doing so. She's actually using her degree to make money for her family. Is it fundie approved? Yes. However, Alyssa is working with her husband's side business, so it's not any less fundie approved. 

So, it does come down to pants and I do think that the skirts only/frumper life has gone out with this new generation of fundies. They are just once again changing with they believe to suit themselves. You want to wear pants? Great, go for it. Whether you wear pants or a skirt or a frigging snowsuit, their intent is the same. So I can't say "She's less hateful because she wears pants." 

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

Something has always bothered me about the assumption that Alyssa is going fundie lite, I didn't know what it was for a time, but I think I've got it. A lot of people say that it doesn't come down to pants, but it really does seem to. Why? Well people say it's because Alyssa works. Well, so does Erin, no one says she's changing. Yes, she's working at home teaching piano lessons but she is still getting paid for doing so. She's actually using her degree to make money for her family. Is it fundie approved? Yes. However, Alyssa is working with her husband's side business, so it's not any less fundie approved. 

So, it does come down to pants and I do think that the skirts only/frumper life has gone out with this new generation of fundies. They are just once again changing with they believe to suit themselves. You want to wear pants? Great, go for it. Whether you wear pants or a skirt or a frigging snowsuit, their intent is the same. So I can't say "She's less hateful because she wears pants." 

I don't think they are less hateful because they wear pants. I think that the women have a bit more freedom because they feel they CAN wear pants.

If you are worried people are trying to take away your right to find the Bates hateful, don't worry! You can find them just as hateful as ever.

There may just be two different categories, fundie and fundie lite, to describe two different groups. How different are they? Maybe pants and earning money is the only difference. Or maybe it's a sign that Alyssa, etc are thinking through other beliefs as well. Maybe she's  thinking, "Well, if my parents were wrong about pants (which are so comfortable!) maybe they are wrong about X or Y." Or maybe not, who knows?

However, if I were a fundie woman, I'd be happier if I could wear pants and earn money. I'd feel a bit less oppressed. And that is a good thing for those little girls like Allie growing up in the cult. I'm glad those little girls can grow up wearing pants, and that IS a thing to celebrate.

As for Erin, fundie women have always been allowed to earn money in the home. So Alyssa is somewhat different in that regard, since I think she cleaned office buildings. 

[JillyO]

I think the most un-fundie thing any Bates daughter has done to date was Michael going to a regular community college. And I don't see anybody arguing that she's becoming fundie lite...

[Granwych]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:58 PM, Melissa1977 said:

I understand your point, but while It works when talking about catholics, It doesn't work on protestants. Catholic church has only one point of view, you have the same kind of mass in every country, Pope set the rules, etc. I know there have been some exceptions (liberation theology, communist priests, etc) but in general, if you go to church, you cannot choose what message you want to listen, so you go to the nearest church and it's all. 

I dunno about that.  While I left the church early on, my late mother and my sisters still attend Mass.  In the USA, Catholics are pretty much "cafeteria" ones, where they pretty much do as they please with regards to birth control, abortion, etc.  I agree that there are strict Catholics who do follow the Vatican edicts, but here most Catholics find a particular church that has a priest who "speaks to them" and stay there.  Just hearing a message doesn't mean one actually listens to it, just ask any mother.

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

However, if I were a fundie woman, I'd be happier if I could wear pants and earn money. I'd feel a bit less oppressed. And that is a good thing for those little girls like Allie growing up in the cult. I'm glad those little girls can grow up wearing pants, and that IS a thing to celebrate.

A truly fundie woman would not dream of wearing pants and earning money outside the home. 

[Melbelle]

In my experience Christians/Evangelicals in the deep south are also a lot more "cafeteria" style than given credit for.  I'm from a very rural area in Alabama and while the churches do list out the same fundamentalist beliefs we've been speaking about in this conversation, I know many people who go to these churches but do not believe certain aspects of the doctrine.  Much like many Catholics in Europe and the US...and maybe elsewhere as well. 

One side of my family is Southern Baptist and the other side is Methodist, I've been to churches in both denominations throughout my life and honestly there is little difference in how the preachers present things in that area...they are almost all fire and brimstone types.  However, my family and friends there all vary in what they actually practice and preach within their homes.  The oldest members of my family tend to be a lot more "fundamentalist" as we discuss here, however the younger individuals (the 2nd and 3rd generation folks) are not like fundamentalists on many topics.  Almost all of my family/friends fall into the "pro-life" category, but none of the ones under the age of 60 believe that abortion in the case of rape, incest, health-risk to mother, etc., is wrong.  About half or so of them also believe that there is nothing wrong with people being "pro-choice", while it's not how they feel, they do believe the God gave people free will and that includes the right to make choices for themselves and make their own peace with God.  No one I know is anti-birth control, but I also haven't heard that preached in any of the churches I've attended either.  The churches in this area preach heavily against drinking, but again everyone I know under the age of 60 has alcohol in their house and/or will order a drink when they go out.  As the saying goes..."There's a fine line between Saturday night and Sunday morning!"

I think churches in the area my family lives in are often as much about people's social life as they are about people's relationships with God or Jesus.  My husband and I have discussed many times how if we were to move to that area we would join a church in order to make friends and develop our social life there.  My husband is an atheist and I'm an agnostic, but we'd pick as liberal of a church as we could find and we would go and participate in their community life because that's what people do there and it would be the easiest way to meet people, see what activities we might want to participate in, etc.  I doubt we'd go more than 1-2 times a month and we'd probably stop going once we established ourselves in the area, but it's definitely the first step we'd take to get established there.

I think Alyssa thinks/believes/does what she feels is best for her and doesn't even pay attention to anything else.  Based on what little I've seen of her personality, I'm guessing she just doesn't even think about the different topics her church preaches about that don't affect her.  It's still dangerous because she (likely) votes for people that do try to implement harmful legislation, but beyond that I doubt she cares one way or the other about what other people are actually doing.  She doesn't strike me as the type to get out and truly campaign and advocate for harmful beliefs.  I know she worked on her FIL's campaign while getting to know/courting John, but I think that was all about landing John.  Since then has she been seen campaigning, protesting, or doing speaking engagements, or just posting cute photos of herself and her kids?  So basically I think she's still fundie, but I'm not so sure she's sitting around her house telling her kids day in and day out about the dangers of homosexuality or whatever the fundie cause of the week is.  Now if she suspects one of her children is homosexual that will undoubtedly change, but who knows?! 

*I'm not saying this is true of everyone that attends these churches, there are absolutely people of all ages that wholeheartedly believe the dangerous tenants that these churches often espouse.  (Even a few within my family.)  I just wanted to point out that, that in my experience, like with any topic out there, there is a lot of layers and shades of gray within that world.  

**Also, sorry for the long post, but this is such an interesting topic I had to get some thoughts out about it!    

[lumpentheologie]

The only thing that makes me think Alyssa is even slightly less fundie than before is a comment she made on one of her instagram posts when someone criticized her for changing her modesty standards from what she grew up with. 

She said that if men are lusting after her, that's on them, and some people will lust no matter how you dress. To me, it's not the different clothes, it's this attitude about them that is a real improvement.  If Allie, Lexi, and the new baby are taught that their modesty standards are between them and God instead of being trained to constantly worry that showing a knee/shoulder/collarbone makes them stumbling blocks for their brothers in Christ, then I think that is a real improvement and less fundie.  Pants without this attitude change mean basically nothing, as far as I'm concerned. 

Does this mean she's not fundie anymore?  No.  But it's something. 

[Seculardaisy]

2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

The only thing that makes me think Alyssa is even slightly less fundie than before is a comment she made on one of her instagram posts when someone criticized her for changing her modesty standards from what she grew up with. 

She said that if men are lusting after her, that's on them, and some people will lust no matter how you dress. To me, it's not the different clothes, it's this attitude about them that is a real improvement.  If Allie, Lexi, and the new baby are taught that their modesty standards are between them and God instead of being trained to constantly worry that showing a knee/shoulder/collarbone makes them stumbling blocks for their brothers in Christ, then I think that is a real improvement and less fundie.  Pants without this attitude change mean basically nothing, as far as I'm concerned. 

Does this mean she's not fundie anymore?  No.  But it's something. 

Did she really say that? This does not sound like something a Bates would say.

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, Seculardaisy said:

Did she really say that? This does not sound like something a Bates would say.

She did.  It was years ago, and unfortunately I can't go back and find it now, but I'm sure other people on here remember it. 

[Hisey]

13 hours ago, Granwych said:

 

A truly fundie woman would not dream of wearing pants and earning money outside the home. 

When then we need a name for ultra-conservative women who do these things. "Fundie-lite" might do.

[Melissa1977]

15 hours ago, Granwych said:

I dunno about that.  While I left the church early on, my late mother and my sisters still attend Mass.  In the USA, Catholics are pretty much "cafeteria" ones, where they pretty much do as they please with regards to birth control, abortion, etc.  I agree that there are strict Catholics who do follow the Vatican edicts, but here most Catholics find a particular church that has a priest who "speaks to them" and stay there.  Just hearing a message doesn't mean one actually listens to it, just ask any mother.

 

In Spain, almost all Catholics are cafeteria, the strict ones are a little few. However, all churches preach the same Vatican messages, that most catholics neither care nor follow (divorce and sex before mariage are widely accepted for all the catholics I know, even conservative ones, and in fact marrying virgin is considered weird). This said, liberal priests are an exception, and even they perform a classical mass. Most priests are very old, and in a few years there'll be lots of churches with no priest. I can see Vatican allowing married priests or doing major changes to keep churches working.

5 hours ago, Seculardaisy said:

Did she really say that? This does not sound like something a Bates would say.

I remember that post, she sounded mature and clever, and she was just 19 or 20 years old and just married. She was stating the opposite as she had been teached, and I really liked reading her comment.

[Melissa1977]

18 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

 

So, it does come down to pants and I do think that the skirts only/frumper life has gone out with this new generation of fundies. They are just once again changing with they believe to suit themselves. You want to wear pants? Great, go for it. Whether you wear pants or a skirt or a frigging snowsuit, their intent is the same. So I can't say "She's less hateful because she wears pants." 

The great about Alyssa wearing pants was not about going fundie lite or changing hateful beliefs. The point was that she came from a family who loudy preached that pants were ungodly and long skirts were a symbol and their girls were happy in this style. And then, Alyssa married and just days after, she wore not only pants, but tight jeans. I'm not in her head, but it's not difficult to guess that she wasn't believing the same as her parents and that she was in a rush to be herself. She must knew that Kelly would be really pissed off watching her in jeans in IG, but she posted anyway. I know jeans are a minor issue, but it  was her issue, and she took her decisions. Tha's why FJ poster celebrated.

[Mayluka]

I think this might be the Instagram comment that is being discussed: 

Which was in response to this comment:

Spoiler

On this post: 

Spoiler

 

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, Mayluka said:

I think this might be the Instagram comment that is being discussed: 

Which was in response to this comment:

  Hide contents

On this post: 

  Hide contents

 

Yep, that's the one.  Baptistboy1 is representing the "fundie" viewpoint, and what Alyssa is saying is definitely a departure from that.  Especially that she's not responsible for men lusting after her. And if she raises her daughters not to constantly feel guilty about their bodies as a potential source of sin for all the men around them, I think that's great, since that's definitely one of the bad things about fundamentalism. 

If I were an optimist I would hope that this means she's going to trust her children more than her parents trusted her, and maybe let them do things like date without a chaperone.  But I'm never an optimist about fundies, so I'm definitely not holding my breath for that.

Also thank you @Mayluka for your great instagram sleuthing/posting skills!

[JordynDarby5]

I liked her comment but Alyssa responded nicer then I would have.  I'm pretty sure there'd be a few cusswords in addition to other words.

[HarleyQuinn]

So that comment was essentially about her knees showing..I thought it was going to be a photo of her in pants.

........................  

[lizzybee]

Nevermind. I've probably beat this dead horse enough. 

[Chocolatecheesecake]

I think that is a fantastic response by Alyssa! I didn't know she wrote that! She is standing up for herself! She is showing the world that it is her desicion and her desicion alone how she dresses. She did not reference her husband (as in "John thinks it's modest enough"). She did mention god, because of course she is still a devoted christian. And there is nothing wrong with making sure your outfits are not too revealing, but she is saying that SHE decides what is too revealing in HER OWN opinion. Go, Alyssa! 

[Dandruff]

I'd like to believe that Alyssa's style of dress is her decision alone, but I don't.  I suspect it's her preference, but approved by her husband.

[HarleyQuinn]

I don't get the vibe that John dictates much about her clothing (like say dWRECK or Austin do) I think she's just into fashion. 

[llg1234]

Looks like Lexi Mae and Zoey will be roommates. Hopefully Zoey will stay in Alyssa and John's room until she's sleeping through the night.  Michaela made them some bedding for their cribs.

(From Alyssa's story)

[ophelia]

Too much pink IMHO, but this is a nice and thoughtful gift from Michael.

[Kangaroo]

I think it's a good balance of pink given the room is grey.

That being said, surely purples and yellows could be "girly" colours in fundieland too? They'd probably have a heart attack if I told them I live blue and green

[nastyhobbitses]

I understand the concerns about pigeonholing girls the second they're out of the womb into frilly pink shit and all the accompanying damaging gender roles, and I don't like that shit one bit, but I also just feel incredibly uncomfortable about the demonization of being girly, that if you allow anything feminine or pink near your female infant, you're a horrible mother who is oppressing her daughter and forcing her to be a vapid Stepford fembot, and being feminine and girly is weak/brainwashed/oppressed/bad and the only way to raise a progressive and well-rounded child is to default to a vaguely masculine aesthetic. 

Newsflash: I had a purple bedroom as a kid, wore my Belle costume for six weeks straight when I was three, had two Rubbermaid tubs full of Barbie dolls, had a closet full of frilly dresses, started wearing makeup when I was 11, and currently have some adorable pink pillows on my bed in my one-bedroom apartment, the rent of which I pay with my quite high-pressure job in an almost entirely male office/industry. Somehow I turned out feminist as fuck and with interests other than (but including) fashion, shopping, and makeup. 

I doubt that the Webster girls would have the freedom that I was afforded growing up to choose what I wanted to do and be, and I'm certain that "mom, I want to decorate my room with Star Wars posters instead of 10 pounds of pink tulle" won't be well received, but I also want to caution people against the knee-jerk demonization of traditionally feminine things. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I understand the concerns about pigeonholing girls the second they're out of the womb into frilly pink shit and all the accompanying damaging gender roles, and I don't like that shit one bit, but I also just feel incredibly uncomfortable about the demonization of being girly, that if you allow anything feminine or pink near your female infant, you're a horrible mother who is oppressing her daughter and forcing her to be a vapid Stepford fembot, and being feminine and girly is weak/brainwashed/oppressed/bad and the only way to raise a progressive and well-rounded child is to default to a vaguely masculine aesthetic. 

Newsflash: I had a purple bedroom as a kid, wore my Belle costume for six weeks straight when I was three, had two Rubbermaid tubs full of Barbie dolls, had a closet full of frilly dresses, started wearing makeup when I was 11, and currently have some adorable pink pillows on my bed in my one-bedroom apartment, the rent of which I pay with my quite high-pressure job in an almost entirely male office/industry. Somehow I turned out feminist as fuck and with interests other than (but including) fashion, shopping, and makeup. 

I doubt that the Webster girls would have the freedom that I was afforded growing up to choose what I wanted to do and be, and I'm certain that "mom, I want to decorate my room with Star Wars posters instead of 10 pounds of pink tulle" won't be well received, but I also want to caution people against the knee-jerk demonization of traditionally feminine things. 

This topic is broached a lot, especially on this thread. I really haven’t seen anyone demonizing pink and stereotypically feminine or girly things though.* The only reason people mention the amount of pink or dresses or whatever else is brought up is pretty much entirely for the reasons you stated in the opening of your first paragraph - the pigeonholing of children into strict gender roles by IBLP families. (It happens in non-fundamentalist families as well and that’s absolutely an issue, but this is a thread specifically about the Websters and so there’s going to be an emphasis on their religious beliefs because of that.)

That said, I see nothing wrong with liking stereotypically girly stuff. I also see nothing wrong with expressing that Alyssa’s decorating or fashion choices for her kids isn’t your personal taste. Not everyone is going to like the same things and it’s fine to express that as long as you aren’t making judgemental statements or sweeping generalizations. 

That said, I hope the Webster girls are happy with their rooms. It’s not my taste at all, but Alyssa appears to have done a nice job putting them together. I also hope they follow through on not having a ton of kids (though I’m not holding my breath) because more kids means less chance for a thoughtfully personalized room as they grow older and develop unique interests and tastes. 

*That doesn’t mean people haven’t demonized pink and girly stuff on here. It just means I have not witnessed it myself on this thread. I have seen it to a limited extent elsewhere and I agree that taking that view or approach is wrong. People should be allowed to like what they like without being shamed or made fun of for it. I may not enjoy stereotypically gendered stuff personally, but you can bet I’ll be more than willing to provide that to my daughter or son (if I have one) if that’s what they end up liking (and that goes if my son likes girly stuff or my daughter likes boyish stuff too.) 

[JillyO]

I love it. Soft pink and grey is my favorite color combination. I even had them as my wedding colors. I'd sleep in that room if Mr. O would let me.