Seewalds 27: Playing not Cleaning

[ElToro]

9 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Israel will sit quietly in the car and do as he's told because Derick can do those things. 

Their whole system is based on power structures, and Derick- being Derick- has no natural power (wisdom, knowledge, charisma etc.) so has to find his superiority by exercising his power over his wife and kids. 

We don't get to see too much of their life, but what we do see us telling. When he talks to Israel, he doesn't allow for Israel's side of the conversation and doesn't seem to handle it smoothly when Israel talks over him or responds in a way he wasn't expecting.

You can also see it when he's talking to the 'courting' couples. He has the power (as he is the married & therefore 'experienced' one) and keeps making a point of it (the i- chaperone/ rearview mirror 'joke' when Jostin went on that triple date) Just like JimBoob with his asshole response to boys asking to court his daughters (when he is the one who has arranged it).

It is sad, really. This is the only power these men have in their lives.... over toddlers and nervous virgins.

[ladybug15]

3 hours ago, Marly said:

I really liked these pictures.
They did make me wonder though: how long are the church services they attend, seeing that they are taking infants with them?
The fundies I know never took children under four years old with them to church, because they considered the services to be too long for such young children. When they turned four, they were old enough to attend 'kiddy church': a special service attuned to children that was held in a different room in the church at the same time as the 'normal' service. The kids only had to attend 15/20 minutes of the normal service, and then they were off to kiddy church. (Mind you, these were very strict fundies: no birthcontrol, man is head of woman, strict gender divisions and roles, women aren't allowed to work outside of the home etc. ) I always thought that this was normal (for fundies). However, I noticed that the Duggars' and Bates'  do bring infants to church with them. How does that work? Are the services really short, or is there a special 'church daycare' room where the infants are being looked after while the partents attend the service? Or do they use some kind of (questionable/objectionable) disciplinary method to teach their kids to be quiet and mindful during service?

I am not sure about the fundies, but at my R.C Church mass is about 45min to 1 hr. My twin boys attended since 3 months old (they are now 13 months). Until recently we sat in the family room in the back, now we sit in the last pews. They do not sit still but are also relatively quiet and we entertain them with books or other quiet toys, or just holding them and they are entertained looking at everything and observing.

[cascarones]

@ladybug15 is on the money, most churches have a family room at the back, sound proofed where nobody frets if babies cry or have a completely separate family room/ mother's room where the service is broadcast. 

Jeremy's church, GCC, services are 90 minutes long with fellowship before/after/ in between the two services. The fundie light church I occasionally attend when my friend has her choir solo performances is 75 minutes for service, though you're encouraged to stay longer/mingle/ get asked for more tithe. Certain other denominations run up to three hours, some have occasional breaks, some don't. I believe LDS has quite long services, I remember Mennonite services being forever long, but I was a teenager stuck in a small town and everything seemed to drag. There was a break though, you got a snack and had a few minutes of fellowship time where you were supposed to discuss the first half of the sermon, take care of necessities and kids ran out some energy. 

[LillyP]

34 minutes ago, cascarones said:

@ladybug15 I believe LDS has quite long services

Yes, they do! I have several friends who are LDS and their services are regularly like 3 hours. They have "1st hour" "2nd hour" and "3rd hour". I've attended a few baptisms but I attended ONE service, on Easter ironically, because my friends son was being dedicated (they don't baptize until 8) and it was by far the strangest experience. My friend married into the church, so me and her family all left after the 1st hour.

[singsingsing]

My church has nursery for the infants and toddlers, and Sunday school for the kids. I'd say the services run about an hour long in total, from the first song, to the message, to the last song. Then often people will stick around for half an hour or so for coffee/chit-chat, or longer if there's a lunch. But we're pretty relaxed, if someone needs to get up and leave during the middle of the sermon, no one cares. We're mainstream-liberal Presbyterians, though, and fundies would NOT like us at all.

[Alisamer]

Baptist, here. I've never been to a church that didn't have a nursery. Babies through pre-schoolers stay in the nursery rooms, and parents/volunteers (vetted, I worked nursery a lot during college when I was a daycare teacher) rotate keeping the nursery once a quarter or so. Some parents bring babies into the service, if they're nursing or don't do well away from the parent, and just go out for a bit if the baby is super-loud. Minor baby sounds nobody minds much. Elementary kids come into the service, and we have activity bags to keep them occupied if needed - with books they can quietly read, or coloring books, etc.

Our actual service is about an hour or so. Sunday school is an hour and comes before (I haven't been to that in years), then there's the service, which is usually mostly hymns, announcements, scripture readings, short children's sermon (often given by one of the teenagers or young adults), offertory with special music and prayers followed by the choral anthem for the first half, followed by a sermon (20-30 minutes usually). Our pastor is really diligent about getting us out by or at noon most Sundays, so the occasional special event Sunday that runs over doesn't cause grumbles. And as those special event ones usually mean more special music, or baby dedications, or special presentations by the youth, people generally don't mind too much anyway.

I go to First Baptist, so sometimes we joke about having to get out quick to beat Second Baptist to the restaurants for lunch. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

I know ours (Presbyterian, not fundie) has a nursery for babies and toddlers. A child over three and under third grade can go to a little sermon at the front of the church then go play in another room under a couple of teachers. Older than that is expected to stay. That said, ages ago those were only available for one of the two services, so anyone with a small child coming to the earlier service had to keep the child with them. Ours is only an hour service, though.

I know my fundie relatives have mentioned a three-hour sermon. I can't imagine how you'd keep a small child cooperative for that long plus the rest of the service, though based on what other, closer family members have said I suspect it involves corporal punishment, unfortunately.

[VineHeart137]

Ditto to all of the above. Not fundie but I am a church goer and in our denomination children are brought from the time they are very young. Main service can last anywhere from 1-2 hours depending on  the church, our current church is usually 1 hour or so. There is usually a "mother's room" that people can take their kids to if they start getting antsy. It's usually a room, most of the time with some toys in it, with either a window and a speaker to see and hear the preacher, or there will be a TV showing the service, so the parent can still hear the sermon while their kid hangs out and plays. (We actually had our pastor mention a couple months ago that they really should change the name to "parents' room", dads use it too!)

As kids get older parents will bring books or coloring pages for them to keep them occupied during the sermon. My daughter is two and she usually does ok, we haven't had to go to the mother's/parents' room in a while.

[Knight of Ni]

The Methodist church that I attended briefly as a child had Sunday school and then an hour service. When I say an hour I mean EXACTLY an hour. You could set your watch by that preacher. After it was over there was a mad rush to get to the cars and peel out of the parking lot before traffic got bad. You would think that most of the people just attended church because they thought they should. 

[Nikedagain?]

46 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

My church has nursery for the infants and toddlers, and Sunday school for the kids. I'd say the services run about an hour long in total, from the first song, to the message, to the last song. Then often people will stick around for half an hour or so for coffee/chit-chat, or longer if there's a lunch. But we're pretty relaxed, if someone needs to get up and leave during the middle of the sermon, no one cares. We're mainstream-liberal Presbyterians, though, and fundies would NOT like us at all.

SAMEEE! My minister is on the board of Planned Parenthood. They def would not like the Presbys. 

[justoneoftwo]

When I go to services LO comes along.  I sit near the door and he plays on the floor or we go out into the hall.  Other kids play on the ramps up to the alter and often bring him over toys or books.  It is remarkably pro bringing your baby.  When he was really little I was actually stopped by an usher when I was taking him out for being a little fussy and told it wasn't a big deal, that they love the noise kids make.  (I still took him outside)

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Our church had a "cry room" and nursery. 6 weeks (as soon as they could go) to PreK went to nursery before and during church. Most moms kept infants until they were moving around a lot and fussing so when ever that was for that kid.  K - 5 had Sunday school/kids church after music and fellowship.  It depended on the pastors mood if he would get cranky about kids in the service, some weeks he was an asshole others he was fine, mostly depending on what he preaching about.

[HarleyQuinn]

My Lutheran church had a nursery. When I was in confirmation, we had to do certain things to earn points (I know that's not what it was called, but is was essentially a points system to go towards being confirmed) and when of the jobs we could do was work in the nursery looking after the kids while church was going on.

[NakedKnees]

The United Methodist church I went to had a nursery and a pretty intense Sunday school program. Services were 75-90 minutes long, and everyone would go to the service for the first 20 minutes or so, which were basically just processional, music, greeting, and a 10 minute "Time With Children" where all of the kids sit by the alter and the minister interacts with them for a bit. It was pretty cute.

Then kids would go to Sunday school. During the early service, there was just one Sunday school group. The later service had so many kids, there was a separate Sunday school class for every 2 years in age or so, up to age 11. Then, you got divided into the three youth groups... middle school, high school, and college/young adult, but those didn'y meet Sunday mornings. The active youth were generally pretty active in services... acoloytes, ushers, choirs, etc.

[metheglyn]

Aren't the Duggars part of the Family Integrated Church movement?  The Bateses certainly are, per their church's FAQs (http://biblebaptisteasttn.com/visitor-information/). 

According to Wikipedia, "In Protestant Christianity, a family integrated church is one in which parents and children ordinarily attend church services together, children stay all through church services without attending Sunday school or children's ministries, and organized groups and activities for children and youth are normally non-existent. Other terms used are family discipleship churches, family-centered ministry and inclusive-congregational ministry." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_integrated_church)

This suggests to me that the Duggars probably do keep their kids with them throughout the services they attend, rather than separating the kids out for any reason other than mothers nursing them. That means that however long the services are, the kids are expected to be there and presumably not be too disruptive.

[Chevreuil]

13 hours ago, LillyP said:

Yes, they do! I have several friends who are LDS and their services are regularly like 3 hours. They have "1st hour" "2nd hour" and "3rd hour". I've attended a few baptisms but I attended ONE service, on Easter ironically, because my friends son was being dedicated (they don't baptize until 8) and it was by far the strangest experience. My friend married into the church, so me and her family all left after the 1st hour.

I'm a member of the LDS church. "First" hour is generally sacrement meeting, which is when we have our bread and water, sing hymns and people get up to bare their testimony (generally on a selected topic, the first sunday of the month is fast and testimony where anyone can get up and bare their testimony on any topic), the second and third hours are more like classes, children go to "primary" (like a sunday school), teens have a mixed class for one of the hours and a young men's and young women's class. Adults have a class (sometimes like a bible study) and then a relief society meeting for the women (which is centered around teachings of a prophet) and men have priesthood meetings. Children stay with their parents during sacrament meeting. Children less than 18 months stay with their parents during their classes, 18 months - 3 years can go to nursery during classes.

There's also YSA for young unmarried members that is somewhat different and i've heard much quieter but i didnt attend a YSA

[Bad Wolf]

@Chevreuil Thanks for explaining that. I know a lot of LDS people, and I've often wondered.

[BecausePrayer]

I've gone to several Baptist churches, and I've seen two structures for the kids. One was that the kids of all ages would go to their own "service", separated based on age. Parents could and did keep their kids in service sometimes, but most left them in the nursery, children's church(above nursery age-6th grade), or Sunday youth groups(7th-12th). At another church I went to, kids in elementary school and above would stay in the main service in the beginning, for music, offering, and a few moments to shake hands with everyone in  the church. At the end of the music time their was an announcement and all the kids would leave their seats and walk to the doors in the back of the hall and to their classrooms. This church kept kids in the main service on the weeks of mothers day and fathers day, and on those days the kids were given small coloring/activity books to keep them occupied if needed. This all only covers the main part of church, as Sunday school was held before and was separate from the main church service in most ways.

[HarleyQuinn]

Ben interns at Harvard Avenue Baptist Church in Siloam Springs

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

16 hours ago, metheglyn said:

Aren't the Duggars part of the Family Integrated Church movement?  The Bateses certainly are, per their church's FAQs (http://biblebaptisteasttn.com/visitor-information/). 

According to Wikipedia, "In Protestant Christianity, a family integrated church is one in which parents and children ordinarily attend church services together, children stay all through church services without attending Sunday school or children's ministries, and organized groups and activities for children and youth are normally non-existent. Other terms used are family discipleship churches, family-centered ministry and inclusive-congregational ministry." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_integrated_church)

This suggests to me that the Duggars probably do keep their kids with them throughout the services they attend, rather than separating the kids out for any reason other than mothers nursing them. That means that however long the services are, the kids are expected to be there and presumably not be too disruptive.

Of course they keep them, if they allow someone, other than JB approved people, to spend unsupervised time with they risk that child having an independent thought.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

So, do NOT read about what Reformed Evangelism is. That is some new flavor bull shit right there. That is an interesting path that Benji is taking his adorable family down, that only speachule snowflakes will be loved by Jebus and we get to pick who those snowflakes are.  So this is how so many "Christians" get away with only thinking of themselves, this reformed BS says God picks who gets to play his reindeer games and the rest of you losers can go rot.

[Carm_88]

I wonder will we see any anniversary posts today? It is their 3rd!  

[singsingsing]

54 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

So, do NOT read about what Reformed Evangelism is. That is some new flavor bull shit right there. That is an interesting path that Benji is taking his adorable family down, that only speachule snowflakes will be loved by Jebus and we get to pick who those snowflakes are.  So this is how so many "Christians" get away with only thinking of themselves, this reformed BS says God picks who gets to play his reindeer games and the rest of you losers can go rot.

At first I was like, "Yep, that's basic reformed theology, it's nothing new, it's hundreds of years old." But are you saying they believe that they (the reformed evangelicals) actually get to choose who God saves??? That's a new one for me. I'm not a fan of reformed theology in general, to put it mildly, but that's even worse.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

19 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

At first I was like, "Yep, that's basic reformed theology, it's nothing new, it's hundreds of years old." But are you saying they believe that they (the reformed evangelicals) actually get to choose who God saves??? That's a new one for me. I'm not a fan of reformed theology in general, to put it mildly, but that's even worse.

I'm not sure I didn't read that deeply just skimmed this page, I'm SUPSOSED to be working, and don't have time at the moment to dive deep into it. I was all "fuck this shit" when I read this line.

Quote

What the Reformed faith does oppose is the preaching of lies - that God loves everyone and wants to save everyone, leaving the impression with the unbelieving that all is well.  

 

[DillyDally]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

I wonder will we see any anniversary posts today? It is their 3rd!  

The Duggar Family Blog by Lily and Ellie already has one. Looking back now, Jessa looks so young... But then all the Duggar girls did on their wedding day so far.