John Shrader 13: Is the End Near? (In Kafue?)

[Gobsmacked]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

We are probably the most reputable site around when it comes to John Shrader. Anyone who finds us should start thinking long and hard about the questions we have asked. 

That hymn seems painful to sing. 

The tune sounds vaguely familiar. I'm sure it wasn't intentional but there are parts lifted from another tune. Just can't work out which tune .

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, Lurky said:

Has David ever talked about the future he's planning for the kids, by the way?  Is he expecting the boys to join him in the ministry, and the girls to get married?  Would he be happy with them courting/marrying a black Zambian? 

You mean John, I think.

No, John seldom mentions the children.  I think taking the two older boys on his camping trips is an attempt to get them to want to be missionaries, but who knows if it will stick.  I have a vague memory that John claims to have started preaching by Enoch's age - but he hasn't started the kids preaching yet.  So far as we know.

If John really plans to stay in Zambia long-term he needs to start thinking about the children. In my experience, most missionary children are sent "home" at 18 (if not before) for further education and then visit their parents on tourist visas.  I have no idea what John plans for his kids, if he thinks about it at all.

The clock is ticking though.  Enoch is 14.  When he hits 18 he will no longer be covered by his parents' residency permits and will need his own visa to stay in Zambia.  Perhaps Enoch could get a student visa if he registered at a Zambian university or legitimate officially registered Bible College, like Voddie Baucham's African Christian University.  http://acu-usa.com/  I haven't checked in on that recently.  It was a comedy of errors last time I looked.

Although I can't see John allowing Enoch to learn Bible stuff from anyone except himself!

There are plenty of children at John's church services but we don't see them interacting much with the Shraderlings in photos.  Some of the former converts looked like unpaid babysitters though.  Arcade especially.

The Shraders don't even seem to interact much with other US missionary kids - but there may be interactions that John doesn't tell us about.  He's far to self-centered to tell us about what Esther and the kids are doing.

I honestly think John would be horrified if one of his children wanted to marry a Zambian national.  He makes out that they are his dear friends but his attitude to Zambians is inherently condescending and belittling.   

17 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

The tune sounds vaguely familiar. I'm sure it wasn't intentional but there are parts lifted from another tune. Just can't work out which tune .

I thought that too but can't place it either.

[formergothardite]

I didn't listen to it long enough to see if I could recognize the tune, but I wouldn't be surprised if parts of it were copied.

Is Enoch the oldest? How old is the oldest daughter who seems to do so much work? There is no way they are getting any sort of an education there. I think they would struggle even if they went to a fundie Bible college. 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

How old is the oldest daughter who seems to do so much work?

Alatheia is 13.  

Got to give a quick shout out to @Bethella and the FJ geneology project here.

http://www.fruitofthewomb.freejinger.org/family.php?famid=F9

 

[sawasdee]

I really have a problem with a lot of missionaries - exacerbated by my time in India and now here in Thailand. I was raised RC, and am now, I think, an agnostic. I'm really not sure if I believe in a greater power - although I would really like to.

But watching missionaries disrupting perfectly functioning societies, where Buddhist or Hindu beliefs are integral to that society, drives me mad. And as for trying to convert people from one brand of Christianity to another - where the difference is measured in microns - strikes me as the biggest waste of time and money imaginable.

I can respect those who try to 'convert by example'. Those who work in places where their medical or other knowledge does a service to the society, and improves the lot of those with whom they interact. But those whose only purpose is evangelising - of which John is a SUPERB example - are wasting resources that could be so much better used. And to spend money on converting people from one offshoot to another of Christianity?

I think it is the arrogance that makes me so angry. They know best? Their faith is superior? When some of these faiths have been around a lot longer than Christianity? Who died and made you god?

Sorry, John is making me extra incensed lately.

[chaotic life]

I hitched a ride into the jungle with MAF once. The national pilot came back two days later when one of our workers went into a full blown mania, which may or may not have been drug fueled. And he even assured me he would bank hard if crazy made any moves to put either of us in danger.

But we were there to teach a village how to build a suspension bridge with Heifer Project. They didn't have the technology in any of the villages so each village sent a team to the central village. The plan was that everyone would work together to build the bridge and then each village could take the knowledge home to build more bridges as the rivers had huge gorges and were impassable in the rainy season for lack of suspension bridges.

I've interacted with MAF and with JAAR. But neither are IFB. And none of the missionaries I have ever known were doing anything remotely like what Shrader does. My dad was setting up a seminary when we were missionaries. The critical component was that he was to help get it established and into the hands of the local, established church.

[chaotic life]

http://mennoworld.org/2017/06/12/news/guatemalan-seminary-leader-knows-jesus-heals/

Not only is the seminary now run by national leaders but it provides educational support throughout Central America. The Mennonites being one of the denominations that absolutely require real and legitimate training to call yourself a pastor and all.

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, sawasdee said:

Sorry, John is making me extra incensed lately.

He makes me rage.

Three generations and counting of missionaries in this family.  Although I never got the call myself.  Thanks be to Rufus.

My family were (and are, although my MD niece is still in missionary training) educational and medical Missionaries.  Evangelism was very much a secondary concern.  They did some evangelism (my late mother regretted some of it) but their primary concern was helping people with their educational and medical skills.

5 hours ago, sawasdee said:

I can respect those who try to 'convert by example'.

But, but, but!  That is Salvation by Works not Grace. John Shrader faints!

I abhor "church planters."  By definition, they should not be there.  Their only purpose is to impose their version of "Christianity" on others.  

They are parasites.

[Bethella]

9 hours ago, sawasdee said:

Who died and made you god?

Jesus (sorry, not sorry!)

[Lurky]

@Palimpsest Lifelong atheist here, so apologise if I am using the wrong words:

No snark intended, but it seems like the Shrader model of Salvation by Grace Alone seems to see all Works as a bad thing, a way to try to weasel into heaven - BUT even if one doesn't believe Works get one into heaven, surely they're still a good thing to do?  Jesus fed the hungry and healed the sick, and did things to improve society etc, and if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for John, right?

But it really does feel like these types are using Salvation by Grace as an excuse to not have to lift a finger to help anyone else.  I know John would argue that by trying to convert the Christians, he IS trying to help them, but....  isn't this theology really, really convenient for people who aren't inclined to actually do anything to actively help another person?

How does it WORK?

[Gobsmacked]

John is finding that it doesn't work. Arcade et al saw through him for being the pompous idle twit that he is and called him out. Hopefully after a few months of desperately trying to hoodwink the various villages, they will suss him too. Please Rufus.

[Lurky]

OK, another Q, because I can't quite understand John - but when he says he's preaching for 3 hours etc... that's in English, right?  He was relying on the men he's fallen out with to preach in Zambian languages?   I don't understand!  How's this all supposed to work?

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, Lurky said:

I know John would argue that by trying to convert the Christians, he IS trying to help them, but....  isn't this theology really, really convenient for people who aren't inclined to actually do anything to actively help another person?

I think you nailed it.  John occasionally gives people a ride in the Troupie but he really only prays for their salvation.  He doesn't help people.  Perish the thought.

I looked into the Works versus Grace thing a while ago and got quite muddled.  It seems to be a theological disagreement over James (who thought Works were OK for salvation) and Paul (who wanted salvation to be all about Grace and nothing but Grace).  John and his ilk buy the Pauline argument and scorn Works.  Some of our Fundie survivors and current (sensible) Christian members can probably explain "by Grace Alone" much better than I.

John and his gang are rabidly against helping anyone financially or giving practical assistance.  There's a long diatribe by the missionary Douglas Hammett (one of Johnny's mentors) that talks about this.  He discusses Africans as though they are subhumans.  It is one of the most racist pieces of crap that I have ever read and John thought it was wonderful.

They preach an odd mix of Pauline Grace Salvation and Capitalist rhetoric.  Converts must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and never ask missionaries for ANYTHING.  Example: the only thing the sainted Michael ever asked John for was a bottle of water before he shuffled off this mortal coil.

Not all IFB missionaries are quite as bad as John.  Some of them are running schools and medical clinics.  They do seem to see conversion as a requirement for helping anyone though.  Legitimate missionaries offer their services to everyone, regardless of their religion.

52 minutes ago, Lurky said:

OK, another Q, because I can't quite understand John - but when he says he's preaching for 3 hours etc... that's in English, right?  He was relying on the men he's fallen out with to preach in Zambian languages?   I don't understand!  How's this all supposed to work?

Probably one of the reasons John's preaching takes so long is the translation.  John preaches in English.  English is still the lingua franca in Zambia but not everyone speaks it.

Roderick used to be the main translator for him, but he seems to still have a translator among the people still hanging around.   So everything has to be repeated and 1.5 hours of content would take 3 hours. 

 It is also theoretically possible that John's sermons in English could need to be translated into Bemba or Nyanja (common languages) by Roderick or Boyd, and then translated again by a local into a more obscure language.  Like a game of telephone!

[formergothardite]

20 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

John and his gang are rabidly against helping anyone financially or giving practical assistance.  There's a long diatribe by the missionary Douglas Hammett (one of Johnny's mentors) that talks about this.  He discusses Africans as though they are subhumans.  It is one of the most racist pieces of crap that I have ever read and John thought it was wonderfu

It really is racist especially since people like John live on handouts. He keeps saying that he is teaching them to fish instead of giving them fish, yet John is continually given million dollar fish. In their minds he deserves this because he is a white Christian American going to Africa to make them more white Christian American. If any of the Zambians received stuff like John does, John would be bashing them as being lazy. 

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

John is continually given million dollar fish.

But are they constipated million dollar fish. 

Yes, John gets to live on handouts because he is the white man who is "called" to save people in heathen Africa.  

Probably the closest John came to teaching people how to fish was the Dead Chicken Enterprise.  The problem with that was Johnny knows sod all about chickens so couldn't teach anyone - or keep them alive.

I suspect that was close to, if not actual, animal abuse.  John buys a boatload of chickens for the men (not John) to look after, crams them into a small room at the Timothy House, and then gets all surprised when they start to die like flies and they can't sell them.  One plea for a recommendation for a Christian American vet - although what a vet in the US could do is still a mystery - and the Chicken Enterprise is no more.  Never to be mentioned again.

I'm rather glad he was too embarrassed to take photos of expiring chickens.

[sawasdee]

I don't understand this works v grace thing either. 

I thought Jesus was pretty clear how he wanted people to behave:

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.*  (Matthew 25:36-40)

I'd have thought that a clear injunction to do works!

*KJV, so any fundies who drift by will understand.....

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

I thought Jesus was pretty clear how he wanted people to behave:

It seems very obvious doesn't it.

One of the things I notice about Fundies is their reluctance to quote Jesus and the synoptic gospels.  The texts they quote (or rather the ones they don't quote) is one of the things along with the Patriarchal thinking that helps me to define Christian Fundamentalism for myself.  

Here's a preacher-man coming down heavily on the side of Grace.  Pauline teachings dominate. Timothy, Corinthians, Romans, and so on.  http://www.allaboutgod.com/grace-vs-works.htm

I always loathed Paul.  And it is probably redundant to point out that Paul never met Jesus, unless you count the vision on the road to Damascus.

[subsaharanafrica]

I don't see Paul and James being at odds over the faith/works thing at all. 

"It is by grace you are saved through faith..." but at the same time "faith without works is dead". 

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Sure, faith saves you but it manifests itself through works. If you sitting on your rear end doing not a thing to help other people even though you are able to you should probably be questioning your faith. 

 

[Howl]

6 hours ago, Lurky said:

But it really does feel like these types are using Salvation by Grace as an excuse to not have to lift a finger to help anyone else. 

It kinda reminds me of the old joke, Q. Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?  A. They don't want anyone to think they're dancing. 

Why won't John help anyone but himself?  He doesn't want anyone to think he believes in salvation by works.  And he's lazy. 

[Palimpsest]

44 minutes ago, subsaharanafrica said:

I don't see Paul and James being at odds over the faith/works thing at all. 

"It is by grace you are saved through faith..." but at the same time "faith without works is dead". 

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Sure, faith saves you but it manifests itself through works. If you sitting on your rear end doing not a thing to help other people even though you are able to you should probably be questioning your faith. 

 

A sensible Christian response.  

I agree they are not mutually exclusive.  I really don't understand why some people want to come to blows over it. 

[Gobsmacked]

6 hours ago, Howl said:

It kinda reminds me of the old joke, Q. Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?  A. They don't want anyone to think they're dancing. 

Why won't John help anyone but himself?  He doesn't want anyone to think he believes in salvation by works.  And he's lazy. 

So John's type of missionary can just be lazy while the folk he is trying to convert think that he is really busy? Is this why daddy's  sheeple think that John is really busy and continue to fund him?

Then intelligent folk like Arcade come along and almost immediately suss out John, can't quite believe what they have realised, tell everyone else then the poop hits the fan, John has to travel to outlaying villages where no one has heard of him (hopefully) and the cycle begins again? 

Now my brain is hurting.

[Granwych]

On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 0:12 PM, Gobsmacked said:

The tune sounds vaguely familiar. I'm sure it wasn't intentional but there are parts lifted from another tune. Just can't work out which tune .

But, do you really want to???

[Palimpsest]

37 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

Then intelligent folk like Arcade come along and almost immediately suss out John,

Quick correction:

It took poor Arcade well over 3 years to suss out John.  Arcade was betrayed by John.  In a way that makes me spitting angry.

And I don't care if Arcade stole from John (as John desperately wants us to believe.)  John scammed Arcade big time, lied about his ability to help him with a visa, and encouraged Arcade to break immigration laws to be "discipled" in John's fake Bible College.  I believe Handia about that.

Handia was much faster at the sussing out John, but Handia is a well educated lad with a functional family.  Handia was not orphaned by the civil war in Burundi.

Handia has helped to spread the word.  That is partly why John is now preying on rural villages.

[clearingthingsup]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

And I don't care if Arcade stole from John (as John desperately wants us to believe.)  John scammed Arcade big time, lied about his ability to help him with a visa, and encouraged Arcade to break immigration laws to be "discipled" in John's fake Bible College.  I believe Handia about that.

I'd bet a hundred bucks that John's definition of "stole" is more like "he borrowed some money for travel expenses & never paid it back & he took some of my books (Bibles) and never returned them". Probably stuff John gave away freely when he considered arcade his friend but then when shtf he wanted it returned to him immediately with interest. 

He's done similar to others in the past. 

I have it on good authority that the reason he called the police on Roderick was because Roderick hadn't returned a cell phone which John had given him for ministry phone calls. Seriously a douche move. 

[Grimalkin]

So what happens when an immodest woman who fornicates but believes what John is selling bites the dust? Does she go to heaven or hell?