John Shrader 13: Is the End Near? (In Kafue?)

[sawasdee]

Serious question here. 

I was raised RC, and know little of other branches of christianity.

If you are 'saved' at age five, seven,nine or whatever, as so many fundie kids seem to be, does that mean you can live the rest of your life as a complete exploiter, and still be sure of your salvation? If, for instance, the TT had been 'saved' at age nine, would all the horrendous things he has done since - his questionable business activities, his exploitation of and refusal to pay contractors, his pathological lying, his hypersexuality, his dishonesty in office - not affect his salvation?

Someone who knows more about this'saved by grace alone' please explain to me!

As an RC, I was taught that all my actions counted in the great heavenly scale. Is that  not true in some fundie sects?

[formerpastorswife]

35 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

 

@Lurky, one  interesting thing is that John was dumped by his original Sending Church over this very debate.  They accused him of preaching Works.  That was all very confusing, because John has always been vehemently Grace, although @clearingthingsup did her best to - clear things up!

Ironically enough, John preaches far more works than grace when it comes to others, but when it comes to himself, it's no works-- all grace.

For those who care about the nitty-gritty hair-splitting points of fundie theology, a little "JOHN (Shrader) THE BAPTIST" theology lesson:

His whole "super speshul" schtick that he uses to distinguish himself from everyone else-- even from all the other "Baptists"-- is called "repentance". For a normal Baptist, repentance means "a change of mind"-- i.e. changing your mind about trusting everything else (including your works), and trusting in Jesus alone for salvation. For John, "repentance" takes on a whole 'nuther definition, and that is "a change of heart, as evidenced by changing your actions to match what a TRUE Christian would do". In other words, it's saying, "well, you claim that you trusted in Jesus, but I need to see evidence (appropriate behavior that matches my idea of what a saved person would do) in your life first before I'll believe it." He claims that you're saved by grace, yet uses a giant measuring stick of external works (as defined by him) to measure whether or not you've changed enough to really be saved.

This is why John claims so few converts-- because he hasn't had any people who suddenly and magically changed enough to be as fundamentalist as him, and conform with all his rules... and therefore they're not saved. This is also why he bewails that he's "all alone" and even all the other churches diss him-- because none of the other churches use the same "measuring stick" he does. It's why his sending church dismissed him for preaching salvation by works-- because while he says on one hand that works don't save you, yet he requires works to "prove" salvation.

And yet, when it's convenient for him, he can still pull the Grace card and say "oh, if MY works don't match up, then it's irrelevant 'cuz Grace is what saves."

[clearingthingsup]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

I suppose Handia could speak out more freely because he is in a safer place with his education and study in Russia.

Handia is (or was) home in Zambia on summer break. He recently posted photos of himself and Roderick out to lunch together. 

@formerpastorswife explained the repentance & sending church dropping Shrader better than I felt I've done. He truly defines repentance completely differently than any other Christian I've met in person this far. And then goes completely off his rocker when you disagree with him on it. 

[Palimpsest]

16 minutes ago, clearingthingsup said:

Handia is (or was) home in Zambia on summer break. He recently posted photos of himself and Roderick out to lunch together. 

Yes, I saw his public posts and knew he was home for the summer.  I've always enjoyed young Handia and couldn't understand why he hung out with John for even a moment.  

Handia has a love of life, fun, and a good sense of humor, as well as having called out John as a liar and a terrible pastor.

I think Handia is lucky because he is safer than the others and could take the risk.  John trying to attack Handia by contacting the university in Russia with a list of his sins would probably just get a big laugh.  His family didn't seem to fall for John's wiles either and Handia has always seemed financially independent of John.

@sawasdee, I don't know.  My grandparents' brand of British Baptist did not believe in the baptism of children.  People were in their late teens when they made the decision.  I expect there is some variation in IFB circles too.  

I have observed some of the Fundies we watch deciding that their being "saved" at 5 years old didn't take.   They have to get saved again properly when they are older.  I think one of the Duggars recently claimed that they needed to be saved twice, and also Jody Hodnett's wife Ginger.

[Carol]

I was raised RC and now have nothing to do with the Church.  However, I still feel enough of that institutional guilt to feel somewhat protective of it.  We were taught to do good deeds as a way to salvation, not that preaching and otherwise sitting on our ass would get us there.  After reading about other faiths on FJ I can't imagine going to happy heaven with assholes like John, Jill, Gary, etc.  I can see myself picking a fight with them, maybe slapping a few.  

I might be the first person in heaven to buy a first class ticket to hell and get the fuck outta there.  Save me a place by the fire.

[Curious]

7 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Because John id doing everything right, God sends him stuff - and when things go wrong it is because Satan always attacks the bestest Christians in the world.

Isn't this pretty much exactly what prosperity gospel is though?  How do his donors not see that?  Do the church members at Daddy Rick's church even know anything about what he is *really* doing or do they get a doctored up version from Daddy?

[Gobsmacked]

They get Daddy's rose coloured glasses version of John's daring in wild scary Africa. They could watch The national geographic channel and find out the truth about Zambia if they dare to have a television, but that would ruin John boys comfy grifting life. 

[Curious]

6 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

They get Daddy's rose coloured glasses version of John's daring in wild scary Africa. They could watch The national geographic channel and find out the truth about Zambia if they dare to have a television, but that would ruin John boys comfy grifting life. 

I admit that most of my knowledge of the prosperity gospel comes from following Kate Gosselin. 

I had the same question about the people that were donating to them after they had been on TV for a few seasons and moved into the McMansion.  How could people think they still needed donations after buying a house that cost $1.2 million.

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, Curious said:

I admit that most of my knowledge of the prosperity gospel comes from following Kate Gosselin. 

I remember that.  It was a big feature of her speaking gigs and she got called out.  IIRC, she said she wrote a check as a charitable donation to another family (like anyone believed that) and then found an even bigger check to support her own family in the mail the very next day.

Can anyone with firsthand knowledge comment on how widespread Prosperity Gospel is in IFB churches?

[clearingthingsup]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Can anyone with firsthand knowledge comment on how widespread Prosperity Gospel is in IFB churches?

It's looked down upon in most IFB churches because physical wealth isn't a hard and fast proof that God is blessing someone. There have been plenty of evil wealthy people in the world.

[formergothardite]

IME they say they look down on it but in reality many fall into the whole good people pull themselves up by their bootstraps and people like John are just being blessed by God for being good Christians. It is the prosperity gospel by another name. I never saw a ton of sympathy towards people on food stamps or who lived in chronic poverty because of their life situations. 

[Lurky]

29 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I never saw a ton of sympathy towards people on food stamps or who lived in chronic poverty because of their life situations. 

But aren't the megafamilies who live on donations praised for their godliness?  I mean, the likes of the Duggars, Bateses, Rodrigueses, Andersens and the Shraders seem to get so much given to them, and praised rather than told to go and get a job.  Or is there a line somewhere where certain people are godly, but, say, a standard 2-parent, 2-child family in poverty is doing something wrong?

[sawasdee]

38 minutes ago, Lurky said:

But aren't the megafamilies who live on donations praised for their godliness?  I mean, the likes of the Duggars, Bateses, Rodrigueses, Andersens and the Shraders seem to get so much given to them, and praised rather than told to go and get a job.  Or is there a line somewhere where certain people are godly, but, say, a standard 2-parent, 2-child family in poverty is doing something wrong?

But they are so HOLY! They are having children blessings for god! They are what we all should be! (But then who gives the donations?)

They are also hypocrites of the highest order.

[formergothardite]

A family who limits their children and where both parents work but still need government help = bad, ungodly, not trusting God

A family where the mom(and in some cases dad) refuses to work, continues to have child after child that they know they can't afford = good because they are trusting God, plus are probably in some sort of a "ministry" so they get extra trusting God points. 

It doesn't make sense. but at the same time they also see people like John getting heaped with all sorts of material things that he doesn't even need as a sign that he is doing something right. That is why he is constantly saying he doesn't ask, God just tells someone to give it to him. If you are truly following God people will just give you stuff. 

[apple1]

10 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I remember that.  It was a big feature of her speaking gigs and she got called out.  IIRC, she said she wrote a check as a charitable donation to another family (like anyone believed that) and then found an even bigger check to support her own family in the mail the very next day.

Can anyone with firsthand knowledge comment on how widespread Prosperity Gospel is in IFB churches?

It's not common at all in IFB, really. (Yes, there are occasional examples).

It's a lot more common in certain charismatic churches.

 

John's whole belief system and spiel is not representative of Baptist theology IMO.

[Howl]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

That is why he is constantly saying he doesn't ask, God just tells someone to give it to him. If you are truly following God people will just give you stuff. 

Well, John has mastered the art of vague begging.  And implying that, unless you pray and send money STAT!,  Satan might, just MIGHT, rip John's soul right out of his body. 

@subsaharanafrica, is there a way to approximate John's burn rate for living in Zambia? Likely rent and food costs?  Gas costs?

[Hane]

A line from the musical "The Book of Mormon" just popped into my head:  "Listen to that fat white guy/Hasa diga eebowai."

Carry on. 

[subsaharanafrica]

12 hours ago, Howl said:

 @subsaharanafrica, is there a way to approximate John's burn rate for living in Zambia? Likely rent and food costs?  Gas costs?

Yes. I can ask my friend whose brother farms in the general area and whose children are in boarding school there for rent and gas prices.

*I'd assume food costs are somewhat similar to what they are here and it all depends on whether you're buying local produce at the market or are paying imported prices. A small box of pop tarts is the same price as a 5kg of rice -- about $7 USD. We provide lunch at our house every day for all the people who work there or come to fix things feeding 7-10 adults and my two small kids from local produce one meal a day costs about  $100 USD a month. If you weren't buying anything imported you could theoretically feed a family of 13 on $250-$300 USD a month. ETA: We provide breakfast as well or the same number of people. That's $30-50 a month.

 

*If anything it should be cheaper for them to eat then that  we live in a massive metro area with a ton of foreigners and prices are inflated as a result. 

 

[Palimpsest]

16 hours ago, formergothardite said:

It doesn't make sense. but at the same time they also see people like John getting heaped with all sorts of material things that he doesn't even need as a sign that he is doing something right. That is why he is constantly saying he doesn't ask, God just tells someone to give it to him. If you are truly following God people will just give you stuff. 

When John started on Deputation he made a huge deal about "living by faith alone."   He pretty much said that it was far more Godly to depend on the kindness of strangers and trust God for your next meal than to have a job.

And, as we have seen, John has probably never skipped a meal.  Unless he's on some crackpot weight-loss gig.

I'm beginning to think it is Go Big or Go Home with these people.  I'm still reeling at the thought Jody Hodnett is grifting to buy a church in Scotland for $97,000 - when attendance at his services in the community centre is, wait for it, 10 people!

[Gobsmacked]

Did those 10 folk include Ginger and their 3 children?

[Palimpsest]

28 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

Did those 10 folk include Ginger and their 3 children?

No, to be fair he counted Ginger and the kids separately.  But it was a really good day at the community centre!

[ElToro]

On 12/09/2017 at 5:21 PM, sawasdee said:

His overweening arrogance and entitlement make me gag. 

Yep... He and Bro Gary should get together!

Perhaps they can spend the rest of eternity trying to convert each other to their own unique brand of Christianity and leave the rest of us heathens alone.

[Ali]

On 9/12/2017 at 1:20 PM, sawasdee said:

If you are 'saved' at age five, seven,nine or whatever, as so many fundie kids seem to be, does that mean you can live the rest of your life as a complete exploiter, and still be sure of your salvation? If, for instance, the TT had been 'saved' at age nine, would all the horrendous things he has done since - his questionable business activities, his exploitation of and refusal to pay contractors, his pathological lying, his hypersexuality, his dishonesty in office - not affect his salvation?

Some believe you can lose your salvation and some believe you can't lose your salvation. I imagine John believes he can't lose his salvation and everyone who betrays him has already lost their salvation.

[clearingthingsup]

2 hours ago, Ali said:

Some believe you can lose your salvation and some believe you can't lose your salvation. I imagine John believes he can't lose his salvation and everyone who betrays him has already lost their salvation.

John believes that if you betray him or don't do exactly as he does then you weren't really saved in the first place. 

[sawasdee]

So no theological basis then? So John....